Ancients vs Planet Builders

[webxro]

Well i was also thinking at a intergalactic device , well those things form halo could be activated from outside the galaxy all in the same time , well maybe that what this thing does , it's only a component of a device

[wolverine_nl]

You are saying those planets are put there/build there purely for the position for this massive device, which is huge....like the idea of that

[Dreyth]

Maybe the Obelisk would protect the Lanteans from the Ori...

Or maybe it's just there.

[Sami_]

YOUNG: Wait - you're telling me they built the star too?

(Rush shrugs as if to say, "It looks like it.")

WALLACE: That would make them the number one all-time advanced civilisation.

RUSH: That would be an understatement.

Planet Builders >>>> Ancients

and please lets not have the discussion of "Rush might be wrong" or "the writers might have intended Rush to be wrong" - its possible but we have no reason to doubt it and Rush is presented to us as an expert.

[Jper]

Planet Builders >>>> Ancients

and please lets not have the discussion of "Rush might be wrong" or "the writers might have intended Rush to be wrong" - its possible but we have no reason to doubt it and Rush is presented to us as an expert.

It's not because you think so, choose to believe so, that this is true. That's your opinion. Your interpretation of that piece of dialogue. Which imho you're interpreting wrong. And that's okay, but imho, the Ancients and this unknown race can hardly be compared and if we will compare them on the fact alone that the planet-builders created a star and a planet, then I'll argue that the Ancients (or even the Asgard) were at least as advanced as the Planet-builders were. I firmly believe that we have more than enough evidence to indicate that the Ancients are in no way inferior to this race when it comes to this.

I believe that piece of dialogue you're using to illustrate your opinion should be seen in its context: adding importance to this discovery. Eli and Rush are new SGU characters, and the importance/impact of their words is far from the impact this would have if Rodney or Sam would say something like this.

[Sami_]

It's not because you think so, choose to believe so, that this is true. That's your opinion. Your interpretation of that piece of dialogue. Which imho you're interpreting wrong. And that's okay, but imho, the Ancients and this unknown race can hardly be compared and if we will compare them on the fact alone that the planet-builders created a star and a planet, then I'll argue that the Ancients (or even the Asgard) were at least as advanced as the Planet-builders were. I firmly believe that we have more than enough evidence to indicate that the Ancients are in no way inferior to this race when it comes to this.

I believe that piece of dialogue you're using to illustrate your opinion should be seen in its context: adding importance to this discovery. Eli and Rush are new SGU characters, and the importance/impact of their words is far from the impact this would have if Rodney or Sam would say something like this.

You can choose to believe that the writers are giving their characters lines intentionally intended to mislead the audience if you want, you must second guess pretty much everything on the show they say.

[Jper]

You can choose to believe that the writers are giving their characters lines intentionally intended to mislead the audience if you want, you must second guess pretty much everything on the show they say.

That is not my point. I'm not second guessing anything. I'm just not believing it 'cause Rush and Eli are new characters in the Stargate universe and have no previous experiences as Sam or Rodney have. So there's no way they can accurately compare. Certainly Eli, 'cause he knows very little about the Ancients in regard to this subject.

This piece of dialogue is not intentionally intended to mislead the audience. It is intended to add importance and impact to the discovery of the planet, and create a shroud of mystery surrounding its completely-unknown creators.

[Sami_]

That is not my point. I'm not second guessing anything. I'm just not believing it 'cause Rush and Eli are new characters in the Stargate universe and have no previous experiences as Sam or Rodney have. So there's no way they can accurately compare. Certainly Eli, 'cause he knows very little about the Ancients in regard to this subject.

This piece of dialogue is not intentionally intended to mislead the audience. It is intended to add importance and impact to the discovery of the planet, and create a shroud of mystery surrounding its completely-unknown creators.

You don't consider Rush an expert on the ancients? he undoubtedly has access to all the reports made and research done regarding the ancients, he is clearly a well-educated man and as such has been made lead scientist for the Ninth chevron project.

I just don't see on what basis you disregard this mans opinion, he clearly is an expert and is presented as such on the show.

[Jper]

You don't consider Rush an expert on the ancients? he undoubtedly has access to all the reports made and research done regarding the ancients, he is clearly a well-educated man and as such has been made lead scientist for the Ninth chevron project.

I just don't see on what basis you disregard this mans opinion, he clearly is an expert and is presented as such on the show.

It's not Rush who says they are the all-time most advanced race, it's Eli. Rush merely agrees in his usual way. This is still a TV series where Rush can't go off and start a whole explanation about how obviously advanced the Ancients also were. You're treating this as if this a real live event, but it's not. It still has the limitations of 42mins TV episodes which have to be open (and appeal) to a broad public.

Also, I do not think either Eli or Rush is an expert on the Ancients and their technological advancement towards creating stars, planets etc. These are events we've obviously seen in previous series, but they have no recollection of that. I doubt Rush would go read up on the device on Dakara or the Ancients' terraforming technology. Rush his area of expertise lies somewhere else. And Eli had never even heard of the Ancients 48 hours before he ended up on Destiny.

And I seriously doubt Rush had access to everything on the Ancients. Rush had easy access to certain things; general info and what he needed for his project. It's not because he's a well-educated man that he knows everything there is to know about the Ancients. Same goes for his lead-scientist position. As in real life often is the case, people in certain knowledge areas know a lot about that particular field or area, but not about other (related) things.

[Sami_]

It's not Rush who says they are the all-time most advanced race, it's Eli. Rush merely agrees in his usual way. This is still a TV series where Rush can't go off and start a whole explanation about how obviously advanced the Ancients also were. You're treating this as if this a real live event, but it's not. It still has the limitations of 42mins TV episodes which have to be open (and appeal) to a broad public.

He didn't need to go off on an explanation, if he thought that Eli's statement was false he could have said something like "I'm not so sure about that" or whatever. Don't think your making sense with this point at all really. Rush agreed emphatically and even corrected Eli saying it was an understatement - doesn't even seem like it was in question as far as he was concerned.

And I seriously doubt Rush had access to everything on the Ancients. Rush had easy access to certain things; general info and what he needed for his project. It's not because he's a well-educated man that he knows everything there is to know about the Ancients. Same goes for his lead-scientist position. As in real life often is the case, people in certain knowledge areas know a lot about that particular field or area, but not about other (related) things.

All the scientists seem to have access to pretty much anything ancient related, even the grunt scientists and I wasn't saying Rush was well-educated and he learned everything about the ancients at university, I said it because its stands to reason that he has the intelligence necessary to take the information on the ancients and put it in context in order to compare what they achieved to what he suspects the planet builders are capable of.

VOLKER: Well, we know in other cases with their later technologies that the Ancients used sensors that restricted access by detecting specific genetic markers.

PERRY: Anyway, after Nick's wife passed away, we used to have these long talks ... (she smiles) ... about his work and my work, the Ancients, ascension ...

[Jper]

He didn't need to go off on an explanation, if he thought that Eli's statement was false he could have said something like "I'm not so sure about that" or whatever. Don't think your making sense with this point at all really. Rush agreed emphatically and even corrected Eli saying it was an understatement - doesn't even seem like it was in question as far as he was concerned.

Yeah and that would have made great television... or maybe just not. I'm sorry, but why do just fail to see that this was purely a TV line?
That just wouldn't have worked, not to mention the fact that then it would be kinda unbelievable if that was the scene, surely Rush would have to explain what he meant. What's the word, "suspense"? It adds suspense? New questions, mystery etc. Imagine that it was "only a race who built a planet" instead of "the all-time most advanced race who built a mysterious planet unknown to the Ancinets with "magic" properties"...

All the scientists seem to have access to pretty much anything ancient related, even the grunt scientists and I wasn't saying Rush was well-educated so he learned everything about the ancients at university, I said it because its stands to reason that he can take information on the ancients and put it in context in order to compare what they achieved to what he suspects the planet builders are capable of.

The expert on board, and on the project, about terraforming and geology is Lisa Park. Not Rush. Rush didn't read up on this subject. Nor did most of the other scientists. They all had access to the basics. Why is it so hard to understand? This is just the same in real life? A heart-specialist only knows the basics about the prostate, while a nephrologist would know all about the prostate, but would only know the basics about heart-flutter, although both are doctors and experts in the medical field. Experts on the human body. The heart specialist wouldn't know how to compare different prostate cancers, and the nephrologist wouldn't know how to rate the seriousness of different cardiac rhythm deficiencies. Then supposedely Eli is like a biologist who knows some things about the human body. If now the biologist and the heart specialist were comparing prostate cancers, I wouldn't give their words the same credit I'd give the words of the nephrologist. Certainly not one sentence out of the entire story they'd tell me.

[Sami_]

Come up with all the non-sensical arguments you want, Rush is a legitimate source of canonical information in SGU.

Even if he wasn't or he didn't make that statement its obvious that the engineering and technological knowledge required to construct a star is far beyond any feat the ancients have demonstrated pre-ascension.

[Dreyth]

Come up with all the non-sensical arguments you want, Rush is a legitimate source of canonical information in SGU.

Even if he wasn't or he didn't make that statement its obvious that the engineering and technological knowledge required to construct a star is far beyond any feat the ancients have demonstrated pre-ascension.

So is Samantha Carter, and yet we know that she isn't infallible. Also, we don't really know much about the Ancients. We don't know the extent of their power. We know that one of their "older" devices helped seed life throughout an entire galaxy. I mean that, in and of itself, is quite the feat. They could create life. From the looks of things, the people that built the planet were waiting for things to evolve (that is assuming that it was built for a specific purpose in mind other than helping the crew of the Destiny, but there was an obelisk, which I think lit up because of the impact that they were having on the environment, which sort of precludes that it wasn't built specifically for them. Either way, that is another can of worms.), whether it was because they wanted it that way or whether they couldn't, though, is another matter entirely.

Anyway, basing these assumptions on something someone said does not make them true. I mean, I could say God exists, but that doesn't necessarily make it true or false.

[Jper]

Come up with all the non-sensical arguments you want, Rush is a legitimate source of canonical information in SGU.

So you think. Clearly we disagree, that's okay. Obviously that's your opinion. Mine is different. I like to view things imho from a wider perspective, overlooking the entire franchise, keeping in mind that this is a TV show.

Even if he wasn't or he didn't make that statement its obvious that the engineering and technological knowledge required to construct a star is far beyond any feat the ancients have demonstrated pre-ascension.

Again, that's what you think/believe. Clearly I disagree, 'cause I'd say we have no idea how or what is required and how or what this is done. And I'd also say that the Ancients did demonstrate such knowledge and ability pre-ascension.

[Sami_]

So you think. Clearly we disagree, that's okay. Obviously that's your opinion. Mine is different. I like to view things imho from a wider perspective, overlooking the entire franchise, keeping in mind that this is a TV show.

Thats just it, you're not viewing it as a TV show, writers don't bombard their audience with information that they have to later contradict, yes it does occasionally happen but it is the exception rather than the rule.

Anyway, I left a comment of JM's blog asking for clarification on the matter so hopefully we can put you out of your misery (and mine)