Death Gliders vs Tanks (M1 Abrams)

[thekillman]

Your beloved gatecopters/fighters would be sent to deal with the tac's and alkesh etc

the gatefighters kill the alkesh.

the gatecopters take out ground forces.

unlike your beloved tanks, these airborne vehicles can maneuver fast. its not regual SG warfare where a deathglider cant hit a tank unless oneill mans it. these arent real life craft that have to be aerodynamic and light. Ceramic polymer and polarized hulls will make the regular plasma cannon too weak to be used, missiles will be taken out by a PDL, stingers are of no use due to the PDL. fog is of no concern as the sensors still work. forest is of no concern as the railslugs would move right through 10 trees and still kill a tank. and a tank is even MORE useless than a fighter you propose in a forest.

a tank doesnt travel alone. i get that. a vehicle dedicated to killing these gatevehicles wont work. projectiles are killed too fast. bullets arent effective due to the polarized hull. CP removes the use of plasma cannons. their guns can kill a tank from 250+KM away. hell, using a shrapnell railslug, they can render an airfield useless. and these fighters/copters can fly high up in the sky and bombard the tanks long before the tanks see them.

superiority at the gate? just fire through the gate to clear out whatever on the other side. trees in the way? just toss a big bomb through and fly out of the gate. your tanks are planet bound. my coptes and fighters can get in the upper atmosphere, and even get to space. railguns by then have unlimited range. they just fire down on the planet, hell could just DROP a bullet and it can kill a tank. shielded tanks? use a plasma cannon bombarding from space.
alkesh? unless they all ram you, their guns are useless. but these guns CAN kill tanks. as tanks arent fast enough.

copters expensive? with their insane kill/death ratio, its cheap. besides, they dont need an uber Antigrav engine. an inercialess drive works fine. hell, regular Aerospikes can keep it in the air with inercial dampeners.

[Stewart5]

the gatefighters kill the alkesh.

the gatecopters take out ground forces.

unlike your beloved tanks, these airborne vehicles can maneuver fast. its not regual SG warfare where a deathglider cant hit a tank unless oneill mans it. these arent real life craft that have to be aerodynamic and light. Ceramic polymer and polarized hulls will make the regular plasma cannon too weak to be used, missiles will be taken out by a PDL, stingers are of no use due to the PDL. fog is of no concern as the sensors still work. forest is of no concern as the railslugs would move right through 10 trees and still kill a tank. and a tank is even MORE useless than a fighter you propose in a forest.

a tank doesnt travel alone. i get that. a vehicle dedicated to killing these gatevehicles wont work. projectiles are killed too fast. bullets arent effective due to the polarized hull. CP removes the use of plasma cannons. their guns can kill a tank from 250+KM away. hell, using a shrapnell railslug, they can render an airfield useless. and these fighters/copters can fly high up in the sky and bombard the tanks long before the tanks see them.

superiority at the gate? just fire through the gate to clear out whatever on the other side. trees in the way? just toss a big bomb through and fly out of the gate. your tanks are planet bound. my coptes and fighters can get in the upper atmosphere, and even get to space. railguns by then have unlimited range. they just fire down on the planet, hell could just DROP a bullet and it can kill a tank. shielded tanks? use a plasma cannon bombarding from space.
alkesh? unless they all ram you, their guns are useless. but these guns CAN kill tanks. as tanks arent fast enough.

copters expensive? with their insane kill/death ratio, its cheap. besides, they dont need an uber Antigrav engine. an inercialess drive works fine. hell, regular Aerospikes can keep it in the air with inercial dampeners.

The ability to pass atmo is actually quite a difficult and expensive thing to do. The vehicle would need to be heat shielded, it would need a powerplant capable of both space and atmo flight, and be able to break gravity acceleration.
And terminal velocity, surely, on the bullet thing? Gravity can only accelerate it so much.

[Stewart5]

And tanks aren't as slow as they used to be. Modern MBTs can get up to sixty mph on the flat. IFVs are pretty nifty too. They would make great support vehicles.

And you can't assume that u will eliminate all enemy air and have enough force left to engage ground unless you are sending in masses of the things.

[thekillman]

And you can't assume that u will eliminate all enemy air and have enough force left to engage ground unless you are sending in masses of the things.

ofcourse you can. seeing the pathetic air/anti air of the enemy, its easy.

stargate powersources last very long. hell, just strip down captured gliders and use them to build the copters/fighters. apparently, 302s can get to orbit. so its not THAT hard. inertial dampeners reduce gravitational force to make aircraft light.

real life does not apply to stargate situations. or atleast: mostly doesnt

[Laxian of Earth]

oh it does, at least concerning military tactics (because of our "standart" tactics we were so good against the goauld, but in a hard infantery battle with jaffa and them having a defense line with walls, AA-Guns, Staff-Cannons and such we would not have been able to do a thing (not even with launching missiles through the gate, as the UAV would not have goten clear of the gate undestroyed - it was a close call in the show. we had situations that a tank could have helped us win and if i said:

a tank geared up with asgard tech would be pretty effective (it could even fly, while still being a mostly ground fighting vehicle that supports the troops with all things needed: Cover, ammo, firepower and if properly done even some cover from arial attacks (by gliders/darts and similar low armor fighters one can shootdown with simple AA-guns))

greetings LAX
ps: our oppenents seem stubborn, don't they?

[thekillman]

then you could just land a gatecopter and use it to provide support low on the ground...

[Laxian of Earth]

if it is landed it cant move (try to move an aircraft (helicopter) build for speed slowly, while near the ground - without running things over, crashing into something and such. for this a "tank" is the better option.
we are not saying in will be the salvation for all our problems, but it might certainly help in certain situations - in others it maybe useless, as the jumpers are for this sort of thing!)

greetings LAX

[thekillman]

ok please read this.


Real Life Aircraft Are Not Like Stargate Air Craft!

a helicopter isnt superfast. the gatecopters i talk about arent copters, but its closest. inercial damperes make it light and render inertia inert. which means instead of Fxdt=mxdv, the equation becomes F=a. which means, the force applied is directly related to the accelleration. which means that if you want to move a 10 tonne helicopter, the equation isnt 50000=10000x5, and thus the accelleration is 5 m/s^2, but F=a, which means 50000=50000. which means the accelleration is equal to the force applied, which means the accelleration is 50000m/s^2.

get it?

if not: mass is taken out of the equation (not nullified). which means that an engine producing 100 newtons creates an accelleration of 100 m/s/s.

so a helicopter only needs the thrust equal to the accelleration it wants to achieve. which means that sticking your head out of the window and blowing actually helps.

also, seeing the advancedness of SG tech, a simple laptop would be terahertz. also, that means that proper sensors and a good computer can analyze the data and automaticall steer the gatecopter, which means you DONT need steel nervers and a rocksolid hand to move the thing properly. it wont even have heli blades. just an engine at either side. no need for a long tail. the three Turbines normally generating the horsepower needed for lift can now directly be used for lift and steering.

besides, using either Naquahdah-potassium or liquid naquahdah explosives, you only need arrow-sized missiles to achieve the same firepower. which means less missiles. also, railguns can be used. and: these things can achieve orbit in no-time. and thus kill tanks from orbit. needed on the ground? just hover. hell, with an antigrav engine(which isnt all that usefull. inercialess is better), the copter can fly without three big engines.

so next time you use real life: it applies just as much as Atomic rocket. which means it largely DOESNT apply.

[Laxian of Earth]

hello again,

i have to say: I completly Disagree with the fact that you can't apply normal reasoning and reality to Stargate (hell some things are different, yes, but most things still do apply, like military tactics and such - otherwise the SG-Teams would not be that successfull (they are "standart" military, even more like special opps units, but they are military, too) - so you can take most modern engagements of reality into account and in those it is always:

Ground forces: Selfpropelled and armed vehicles and infantery
Airborne Forces: Fighters, Close quarter airsupport (helicopters)

(those two together make a successfull military campaign possible in the first place and we see it works (the Gulf Wars, Afganistan (also that's tricky as most of it cannot be controlled by motorized units as they can't get everywhere there - planes and helicopters can't help mostly either) and other modern engagements))

greetings LAX
ps: i would still employ your fighter. As air cover and the copter as close airsupport

[thekillman]

but still tanks ARE OF NO USE. they would get owned too fast. they are too slow, too bulky, and their firepower is pathetic for their size.

[Mister Oragahn]

besides: we know that according to the writers, in atlantis we CAN use normally forbidden ammo like shrapnell ones. why else do wraith get mowed down, while normally it took a clip to kill them?

Wait, where is that said?
Any more details on this?

[Womble]

then you could just land a gatecopter and use it to provide support low on the ground...

Seriously?

Your fancy spaceships' energy weapons are absolutely useless in ground combat, if you haven't noticed. Death Gliders' staff cannons were proven useless on infantry targets; they're only effective on a direct hit and they create no shrapnel or splash damage whatsoever. All energy weapons we've seen were of the same variety (with the exception of Asgard and Ori beams, which were energy-hungry and only suited to large ships, not "gatecopters". If you start mounting cannons and machine guns on "gatecopters", then all their other super duper high-tech parts are simply superfluous.

Then consider detection. Your "gatecopters" will give off one hell of an energy signature that'll be pretty damn hard to miss. You can, of course, turn off all its systems, but that will mean disabling its shields and weapons- in other words, turning it into a helpless, fragile sitting duck. An old-fashioned tank, on the other hand, will not give off an energy signature of the kind to which advanced races' sensors are fine-tuned for, and with its engine turned off, it will be as good as invisible to any passive detection system- [b]while still being a heavily armored, ready to fire battle machine.

Advanced ships can be effectively targeted with weapon types that no one in the Gateverse has thought of for some reason- anti-radiation missiles of a similar kind to those used to destroy radars in the real-life world. Put a shield modulator on it and make it sight itself in on the "gatecopters" energy signature, and bye bye "gatecopter". Standing tanks, on the other hand, can only be detected visually, and with some camouflage, not even then.

[kefke20]

Death Gliders vs Tanks?
and also a pies fo crape of a M1 Abram? come on go back to reality

a tank agenst a air/space craft that is idiotic!

f you want to yous a armer you will take something like a German Gepard and upgrate it to Stargate specs ( rail guns, space sensors, n-generator, eclectic engine, ext)

[thekillman]

Your fancy spaceships' energy weapons are absolutely useless in ground combat, if you haven't noticed. Death Gliders' staff cannons were proven useless on infantry targets; they're only effective on a direct hit and they create no shrapnel or splash damage whatsoeve

well. what happens when someone who actually has some intellect handles a plasma cannon?


seriously.

an X-699 with the size/effect ratio of a staffweapon would be a Plasma BAZOOKA. add a stun/kill charge, and its instakill. walls would be blown to pieces, metal melted, people killed, trees felled, DHD's destroyed.

also, i mentioned railguns and tiny pod missiles aswell.

a tank will have an energy signature aswell. besides, since when can a tank actually hit my gatecopter? it cant. my gatecopter would be able to hit him actually.

and since when has a shield modulater EVER worked? aside from rings?
also, i mentioned a PDL aswell. anti copter missile: Bye bye. hell, a PDL can blow the tank shells out of the air.

even if its a christmas tree on sensors. who cares when you can take out your enemy without being hit? just sit in orbit and fire and watch them being unable to do anything

[Womble]

well. what happens when someone who actually has some intellect handles a plasma cannon?

Nothing. Plasma is plasma. It won't grow a metal casing that could burst and disperse around as shrapnel.

an X-699 with the size/effect ratio of a staffweapon would be a Plasma BAZOOKA. add a stun/kill charge, and its instakill. walls would be blown to pieces, metal melted, people killed, trees felled, DHD's destroyed.

Bazooka shmazooka. We're talking about hitting human- or vehicle-size ground targets out of a moving high-speed aircraft. You cannot count on direct hits, however powerful. If your weapons don't cause area damage, you're not going to hit.

also, i mentioned railguns and tiny pod missiles aswell.

Railguns= direct hit weapons. They could approximate aircraft miniguns- but you'd need to use them at very low speed, which makes your "gatecopters" easy targets.

a tank will have an energy signature aswell.

A heat signature from the engine perhaps, assuming that the engine hasn't been shut down for stealth purposes- but certainly not the huge energy signature that high-tech anti-gravity aircraft would give off.

besides, since when can a tank actually hit my gatecopter? it cant.

It can. With missiles. Modern tanks can fire surface-to-air missiles; I've written about it before. OR a tank can use several radar-guided rapid-fire energy cannons to imitate the anti-aircraft systems like the Gepard or the Russian Shilka.

and since when has a shield modulater EVER worked? aside from rings?

It'll work if done right. The principle is valid.

also, i mentioned a PDL aswell. anti copter missile: Bye bye. hell, a PDL can blow the tank shells out of the air.

PDL?

I'm not aware of any weapon that can blow tank shells out of the air. Even systems designed to intercept mortar shells (which is WAY easier than high-velocity tank shels) are still in the prototype stage.

even if its a christmas tree on sensors. who cares when you can take out your enemy without being hit? just sit in orbit and fire and watch them being unable to do anything

You can't target something as small as a tank from orbit. Certainly not with unguided weaponry such as plasma blasts, and certainly not when the said tank gives off little to no energy signature. Even were you able to detect tanks from such distance, a fraction of a millimeter's worth of targeting error would result in missing the target by miles.