The Ancients. Who are they really???

[Crazy Tom]

Determing how human somenthign is, and thus how much right to live it has, on the basis of theology, is a worhtless wate of time. Since a soul is inherently immesurable.

So how about we stop wasting each other's time with irrelevant discusion that can be debated in off topic? (And in fact already has been...more than once)

[Major Mike David]

MMD. i believe Evolution. and i see people trying to prove it. but when i look at the Creationists, i see people sitting there, pointing at the bible. i ask them if they believe it. no. have i read it. yes. welll thats your own personal choice.

thats how creationists prove their right. which i hate. because apart from the occasional discovery channel/national geographic channel programm which is about finding something, i dont see much people trying to prove it. we live in the age of proof. guilty? prove it. innocent? prove it. were you there? prove it. does god exist? prove it. thats how people think. and i cant stand it if you believe something just to believe.

as to the ancients:

jack had the repository, and he knew how much time had passed. he couldve easily deducted from that that PT still had a ZPM. arctic was probably depleted long ago. because of the plague, it couldnt be replaced. so it was around the plague that the repository was last updated.

ahem. everyone knows Evolution is as complete as science itself. but logic and evidence also explain that its impossible to find every last link. you cant find evidence for everything. you cant find a fossile for every creature. cause there are certain circumstances that dont repeat itself over and over every day, making fossiles of everything. its not possible. but how much proof is there, that whats in the bible is true? yea, there was a fellow named jesus and he did annoy the romans to hell. and he was executed. does that mean bible jesus exists, QED? no. it only means there was a jesus. maybe it was a different jesus? or the bible made an extreme version of that story. the man in the chest was though dead, but he was somehow ressurected because of a medical condition. we hear stories of people thought dead were still alive. people frozen who are reanimated. does that mean this jesus fellow was just very lucky? or did he really have healing powers? he walked on water. well, in my country there is a "sea" with deep and undeep parts. sometimes its partially dry and you can walk on it. perhaps "jesus" walked on an undeep part, but people thought he walked on water? ofcourse there couldve been judes enslaved by the egyptians. doesnt mean god blessed them and made them escape.

the point isnt saying there was a jesus, point is proving its the bible jesus. which is probably untrue.

because Evolution has weak spots, doesnt mean its untrue, or that creationism is untrue. we arent here to fight who's wrong or right. Evolution exists because we are trying to explain why things are as they are. we are seeking the truth, not fighting a war. and the people following Evolution try to elaborate it, to make it more complete. Creationism just say they are right, and just point out the problems in Evolution, problems which exist because you cant have a fossile of every creature in 4500 million years.

there is evidence that the bible Flood was actually the flooding of i believe the black sea. there was a natural barrier between Turkey and the part of Europe belonging to it. it broke, the land flooded. some people couldve seen it as the biblican flood.

I like you killman, I really do. Your a good guy, but there are some occasions where I want to nuke you. lol.

What you just said WAS THE MOST ARROGANT THING I've heard all week.

If you noticed I haven't once stated anything that has condemned you for believing in Evolution. I don't care if you do or not. I really don't. Its something called free will and you can do with it what you like, it’s your life not mine. You make your own decisions not me.

But when you say you see Evolutionists sitting and trying to prove what they believe in is correct while Creationists sit at a table and point at the Bible and say "all our answers are in this, we're right, you’re wrong. And what you believe in is Bull CRAP!" Is really a Judgemental Statement and you are VERY WRONG about that if I may point out. The only Creationists that do that however are the retard guys that annoy the heck out of me and I just want to dump them in a volcano or something... Lol. But I have lots, I mean LOTS of friends who are Creationist scientists while I have many others that are Evolutionists. I met countless many more Creationists and what you said is a lie for the most part. And you can't judge what you've seen or heard what a FEW Creationists have said to you in the past. GET over it. I have when Evolutionists say stuff to me.

You make it look as though Evolutionists are sitting together, holding hands like humble men trying to benefit all of man kind while Creationists are skulking about as they hunker suspiciously and spout out cursed lies and doomsday crap.

Well I have a news flash for you Killman, 78% of us ACTUAL Christians DO NOT do that. Far from it actually. And you judge us before you even know us in the first place. I don't judge you because I don't know you and I've never been in your shoes. Have I ever once judged you? Tell me now if I have, because as far as I'm concerned I haven't. You need to examine yourself buddy before you make such bold accusations upon Creationists.

And WOOPIEDOO if you've read the Bible or whatever. Do you wanna a cookie or something??? If you think that by reading it you'll automatically know that what you believe in is correct and what we believe in is wrong because the Bible sounded silly to you? Well, to be on honest w/ you bro, some stuff does sound silly. But it's not. And because, as fr/ what you've told me, you are not a Christian and do not believe in God, you do not have the eyes to see the truth or understanding of what the scriptures are speaking to you. So therefore what you read when you are unsaved won't make sense to you at all. It's just a plain fact, unless some miracle you start to see the light. lol. And also, we've proved many, many things as well for Creationism. Evolutionists were so excited and ready to pounce on us Christians when they said, "oh these Christians are gonna get it good because we are right that there is no Dead Sea Scrolls."
And what did we Christians find??? Dead Sea Scrolls, and they were written precisely the way the modern Bible is today. Now you ask what good is that. Well as far as I'm concerned it just proves another fact that leads us one step closer to trying to prove that Bible is telling the truth.

But if you don't understand what I'm saying now, you'll never understand, it’s that plain simple and that’s not a judgment because that's a basic thing I've seen happen countless of times. Not because you aren't smart, far from it bro, you are tremendously smart and creative and I like that about you, but because you are blind to understanding and truth that we Christians are not because we are saved.

Now you said that you can't stand it when people say they believe in something just because they believe in it. REASON why you can't stand it is because you don't KNOW what its like to believe in something that YOU KNOW in your heart is right. IT IS CALLED FAITH! We NEED faith everyday or we'd be no where and be dead. We have faith w/ out thinking about it. For example when we go to sit down, "I have faith that the chair that I'm about to sit on will hold me up and will not break on me." Faith is also where we believe in something that is to come. Like the next day for example or for our parents or loved ones to get home safely from work. Or that you'll get to see your friend at school or at work. THAT IS CALLED FAITH. And for you to say you can't stand people that say they believe in something just because they believe in it is quite contradictory on your part because YOU need faith just to believe in something to come to pass, just as I believe in that Christ died for our sins and will return someday.

Now don't retort back by saying "stop preaching at me" when in the beginning you have "preached" your belief right at me when I all I did was make a few statements and it wasn't directed at you or to hurt your feelings, if I do I'm sorry. But don't go there by quoting that to me.

And since you said some things that greatly offended me I will pardon you for your fault, but one thing about Jesus, and I believe this heavily and strongly, is that He is real and a fact. He did Rise Again and is not some floundering dead man stuck in His grave.

I will completely avoid with trying to argue about the Flood thing with you and some other points because I'm tired of this debate and it’s wiser that I keep my mouth shut before I get some people really offended because you can't take it when someone states something that is contrary to your belief.

We are all friends here so no freaking reason to get all pissy like little girls and grab each other’s throats.

And I apologize now that whatever I said in the above paragraphs offended you. I'm sorry. But I said what had to be said, because its only fair that I reply back to something that I don't think is right and I'm going to stand up in what I believe in. Period. Now you all know my belief, so what. But it doesn't me I hate Evolutionists. I LIKE YOU Guys! Yall are awesome and I sometimes prefer the company of yall then others. I will still continue w/, what I believe is a theory, talking about evolution as though it were "a fact" in the Stargate Universe for yalls benefit so yall don't have to get mad at me and pissy because of my preaching. lol.

Anyways, I'm done now.

[Major Mike David]

Determing how human somenthign is, and thus how much right to live it has, on the basis of theology, is a worhtless wate of time. Since a soul is inherently immesurable.

So how about we stop wasting each other's time with irrelevant discusion that can be debated in off topic? (And in fact already has been...more than once)

Good Point Tom, it seems as though I lost my sense of attention.

THIS THREAD IS NOT about who is right and wrong in belief about Evolutionism or Creationism! We all believe something differently and either share the same beliefs partially, but we can all get along nicely!

My apologies guys for getting side tracked.

[Major Mike David]

In the stargate universe the current humans did not evolve naturally either, they were created by the Ancients. It takes billions of years to get from a single celled organism to a multicelllar one as complex as a human. What i think that happend, is that the Ancients created humans who are at an earlier stage in Ancient evolution and let them evolve naturally from that point.

The only difference between the Wraith and humans is that the humans were created intentionally and the Wraith were an accident. For both species a part of their evolution was not the result of a natural progress.

New Order part 2, Thor believes that Jack posesses knowledge that can defeat the replicators. Jack uses the knowledge he gained from the repository to create a weapon agains the replicators.

Good point and you are right there, but we evolved naturally even though we were sorda given a nudge by the Ancients to direct our growth into humans. Wraith are basically Human and Iratus Bug slapped together, period. It would not have taken the Wraith but at least 1 or 2 centuries to evolve into the state that they are in now, and then it would’ve taken a bit more time for them because they had to learn how to use advanced tech, so even though that is “kinda considered” to be apart of their evolutionary growth, it still doesn’t go along w/ them growing as fully-grown Mature Wraith seen in Stargate Atlantis.

And yes you are correct that the Wraith are an accident and humans were intentional. The humans it was slightly less a result of natural progression… considering where your opinion is, lol.

[Buba uognarf]

WOW...MMD. Well said.

I take it there's no need for me to rant at killman too? lol. Or for me to start debating the flaws of evolutionary theory?

[Crazy Tom]

Good Point Tom, it seems as though I lost my sense of attention.

THIS THREAD IS NOT about who is right and wrong in belief about Evolutionism or Creationism! We all believe something differently and either share the same beliefs partially, but we can all get along nicely!

My apologies guys for getting side tracked.

1. Yes

2.: quick quip on my part: MMD, your not qualified to pick an choose what yo believe in from Christinaity, there are rules and regulations laid out by the church that are in your best spiritual interests to follow, seriously, i go to a cathoolic school, so i have religion as a course, so we look at this kind of stuff.

And What kimllamn said wasn't as arogant as what you said about the wraith. Good and Evil are purely relative, there is no universal law that dictates what is good an evil.

We ick anf choose morals and traditions based on how they help us survive and continue our bloodline, if somehting is going to get you killed and there would be no god concequice for you dying, you would not do it. I dare you to deny it.



ARRRRRRRRRR! Why are these debates so much damn fun?!

[Major Mike David]

1. Yes

2.: quick quip on my part: MMD, your not qualified to pick an choose what yo believe in from Christinaity, there are rules and regulations laid out by the church that are in your best spiritual interests to follow, seriously, i go to a cathoolic school, so i have religion as a course, so we look at this kind of stuff.

And What kimllamn said wasn't as arogant as what you said about the wraith. Good and Evil are purely relative, there is no universal law that dictates what is good an evil.

We ick anf choose morals and traditions based on how they help us survive and continue our bloodline, if somehting is going to get you killed and there would be no god concequice for you dying, you would not do it. I dare you to deny it.



ARRRRRRRRRR! Why are these debates so much damn fun?!

Okay I can't help myself but this IS THE Last thing I will say concerning this subject.
1) haha
2) I am not Roman Catholic, I'm simply a Christian. I don't beat around the bush, I get strait to the job and thus I'm not Catholic, therefore I am qualified to pick and choose what I believe in Christianity, its called free will and I'm not one to be controlled by anyone beside the Lord God and those He chooses to be as authority over my life. Just as a child can pick who he wants to be friends with like a grown man can pick what sorta of blue tooth gadget he wants. That's cool that you have a religious class bro (thats not sarcasm). But I'm not religious, I just love God.

What I said wasn't arrogant, its what I percieve of the Wraith and that's what my opinion is on them and that's how I seriously think it is. Thats not arrogance, arrogance is where some one makes a bold claim and the other sort, making it seem as if their all high and mighty. And like a said before, we can argue ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL DAY about what people opinions are on Good and Evil. I have my own opinion and I reserve it for those that ARE actually willing to listen to me instead of those that will jump to conclusions, not saying that yall have because I haven't told yall what I really think, lol.

Yes, though morals and traditions do not define everything Tom. You fail to see what I see and therefore theres no more point in me trying to continue, since THIS DEBATE IS OFF TOPIC! lol.

And I absolutely agree!



GUYS NO MORE OFF TOPIC SUBJECTS! haha...
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE ANCIENTS!

[Major Mike David]

WOW...MMD. Well said.

I take it there's no need for me to rant at killman too? lol. Or for me to start debating the flaws of evolutionary theory?

lol, Thanks Buba.

Ya, I ranted enough at Killman, don't tick him off guys. And no, we're done w/ the evolution vs creationism crap on this thread. lol.

[Crazy Tom]

Alright! What do we actually KNOW about this lot? Interms of biology, technology and how that would afect their behavior and culture?

[TheAccended]

Concerning the repositories of knowledge,

What if the repositories were created at a point shortly before Atlantis left for Pegasus. Jack could have been going to Taonous(sp) because it was the last known coordinates of the city. Once there he was able to gather from the outposts computer that Atlantis moved on to Earth. After all the Earth outpost had the coordinates for Atlantis in Pegasus. The outpost computer may have also been able to tell him that Earths outposts ZPM was depleted or he was able to ascertain it when he attempted to contact that outposts system and got no response.

As for the weapons used to defeat the reps. The Ancients at this point were already masters of various sciences and technologies. Thor had mentioned that his people had worked on a similiar technology but it didn't pan out. Jack may have used what he knew in combination to complete the Asgard research.

It true that the Ancients as whole had not civiliation. But the pockets that went through the gate as Morgan states may have been able to create a remanent of what they had. It may also have been the origin of the Alliance. What Ancients wen through the gate encountered the Asgard, Furlings, and the Nox. It would also help to explain how Janus was able to build his time machine.

[Professor D.H.D. Puddlejumper]

The repositories were build post-Pegasus, they contained information about the replicators, who were build in the Pegasus Galaxy.

I'd much appreciate it if you'd tell me which episode references this, just to save me the search. Thanks.

New Order part 2, Thor believes that Jack posesses knowledge that can defeat the replicators. Jack uses the knowledge he gained from the repository to create a weapon agains the replicators.

Okay, I gave this episode a view and also browsed the pertinent parts of the transcript. It does not establish that the Ancients knew of the Replicators, but only that Jack was able to draw upon the Ancients' knowledge and technical know-how to build a weapon that he could use against them. There's a difference there.

On another matter, I will concede that obtaining the ZPM from Procralush, was at least as likely a necessary step to locating the Lost City as was viewing the hologram. But again, it raises the question as to how the repository would know that a ZPM on a 5 - 10 million year outpost would still be active, unless as I suggested earlier it could detect active ZPMs anywhere in the galaxy?

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

The Repositories are most likely a pre-Pegasus, Plague-era invention. They were probably built by the Altera who remained (i.e., not the Lantians) as a way of preserving their dying culture.


Of course, the "legacy" fragment (there seems to be more inscribed there) could well have been written well after the database was created, as a kind of "last words". This is plausible because a more literal translation of the words suggests that it should read "this is that which is left behind". (linguistics is a hobby of mine)



Oh, and it seems that I cannot stress this enough: Moral Relativism is a self defeating argument. If you claim there is no true right and wrong, then you cannot claim that there is no wright and wrong, because you would be declaring yourself right and anyone who said otherwise wrong.

If you were able to work through that logical ouroboros, then you are quite skilled.

[Betelgeuze]

Oh, and it seems that I cannot stress this enough: Moral Relativism is a self defeating argument. If you claim there is no true right and wrong, then you cannot claim that there is no wright and wrong, because you would be declaring yourself right and anyone who said otherwise wrong.

Wasn't it agreed that this debate is Off Topic? I'd love to debate you of topic, although i'm a consequentialist, so i do think there is an objective way to establish what is right and wrong.

Okay, I gave this episode a view and also browsed the pertinent parts of the transcript. It does not establish that the Ancients knew of the Replicators, but only that Jack was able to draw upon the Ancients' knowledge and technical know-how to build a weapon that he could use against them. There's a difference there.

That is a possibillity.

On another matter, I will concede that obtaining the ZPM from Procralush, was at least as likely a necessary step to locating the Lost City as was viewing the hologram. But again, it raises the question as to how the repository would know that a ZPM on a 5 - 10 million year outpost would still be active, unless as I suggested earlier it could detect active ZPMs anywhere in the galaxy?

So far there has not been any evidence that the repositories are anything other then a data storage device, of course it is possible that they are connected somehow to the outposts. But if they are not, then the only way that Jack could have known that he had to get a new ZPM from another planet would be if the database contained info that Atlantis was no longer on Earth. If the database was build before the plague then he would think Atlantis was still on Earth. I think that when Jack brought up an image of Earth and called it Terre Atlantus, he was just calling the planet by it's Ancient name.

The Repositories are most likely a pre-Pegasus, Plague-era invention. They were probably built by the Altera who remained (i.e., not the Lantians) as a way of preserving their dying culture.

That is also possible. If it was build by the Ancients who remained behind it would explain why Jack new Atlantis was no longer on Earth. But if the Lantean Ancients new about the repositories it would be possible that they added there knowledge, when they returned to the MW galaxy. After all the real end of Ancient civillization on this plane of existence was when the Lantean Ancients chose to Ascend instead of building a new Ancient civilization on this plane.

P.S
So funny how a debate regarding the origin of species in a fictional universe, can turn into a debate about evolution and creationism in the real world.

[Major Mike David]

Oh, and it seems that I cannot stress this enough: Moral Relativism is a self defeating argument. If you claim there is no true right and wrong, then you cannot claim that there is no wright and wrong, because you would be declaring yourself right and anyone who said otherwise wrong.

If you were able to work through that logical ouroboros, then you are quite skilled.

lol, Mcoy, I think you missed the memo about no more talking about Morals, right and wrong, good and evil and evolution vs creationism. lol

I'll let it you off this time.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

No, I didn't miss it, I just couldn't resist saying it again because they completely ignored it the first time I said it. Besides, it was just an aside to my main point about the Repositories.



And "Terre" would be Earth. I'm not really sure what a translation of "Atlantus" would be. (If it isn't just a name)

And the fact that O'Neill could create an anti-replicator weapon doesn't mean that the Altera had to have already made the replicators; O'Neill's own experiences with replicator technology, and any research the Altera could have had about nanites already (they need not have made Replicators to have studied nanites) could have been used in concert to create the gun.