The Ancients. Who are they really???

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

all the nox had to do is remove the symbionts from the hosts, and all would be over.

They're Parasites, but yes, basically. (for the Goa'uld, that is)

look the problem here is: they're right. you cannot just interfere.

Interfere? Dang, I wish I knew what you people defined "interfering" as. Because a Goa'uld invasion fleet bent on conquering and enslaving your population sure sounds like "interfering" to me.

Removing the Goa'uld wouldn't be interfering; it would be restoring. Just because you save someone from some other persons dominance doesn't mean that you are then guaranteed to dominate them yourselves. That wouldn't be saving.

but denying help, "because there are other ways than yours", and just leaving, could be interpretated as evil. but arent we evil then?

Yes! You got it! Every species is evil to some extent, because perfection is non-existent!

But I don't think that's what you meant...so what did you mean?

i mean, we're not exactly the least warlike here. killed tons of aliens, annihilated two machine races, annihilated the ori, brainwashed an entire race, if not multiple, killed thousands of wraith. we've commited xenocide so many times its not funny anymore.

And I lost you again. This is on the opposite end of the spectrum; total annihilation and total pacifism are both evil*, but you cannot confuse them. They are two extremes.


But I'm curious as to when exactly we've committed xenocide?

*(Actually, not quite; there are a few instances where total annihilation is justified, but total pacifism never is.)

[thekillman]

well what i meant to say:

its what the nox do. we straightly asked them for help. they said "there are other ways"

BAM. end of discussion.


but the goauld developed that way. interfering with that, would be killing hitler. it woudlve stopped the world war. but i also think it shouldnt have been otherwise. after all, the horror that was Hiroshima did show us what a nuke could do. which aided in CW.

just like in stargate: had the nox interfered, then we couldve been corrupted by the power we could just gain. just as we shouldnt have gotten asgard beam weapons in s3 to wipe out the goauld. we couldve done something like in "absolute power"

[Betelgeuze]

I think that to understand the Ancients, one has to start with their basic beliefs. In The Ark of Truth one of the Ancients says: 'We belief in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, through argument and debate, but most of all freedom of will.' The Ancients were scientists who were driven from their homeworld by religious fanatics. They did not want to use the Ark of Truth against the Ori because they considered it a form of genocide. This means that it is likely that when faced with an enemy like the Wraith, who they accidently created, they might try to avoid wiping them out.

I agree with previous posters that the Ancients did not create humans in the Pegasus Galaxy by means of a Dakara device. The Ancients had other means of creating human life. The Asurans led by Weir came to Atlantis to use this technology to create human bodies for themselves.

The Ancients i think are a representation of the best aspects of humanity, and the Ori the worst. The Ancients are not perfect, they made their mistakes but they still are what we all should strive to become. Humans have the potential to be like the Ancients, or like the Ori.

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

well what i meant to say:

its what the nox do. we straightly asked them for help. they said "there are other ways"

BAM. end of discussion.

Just because it's "what they do" doesn't mean it isn't evil. That's ridiculous.

but the goauld developed that way. interfering with that, would be killing hitler. it woudlve stopped the world war. but i also think it shouldnt have been otherwise. after all, the horror that was Hiroshima did show us what a nuke could do. which aided in CW.

I'll assume you mean "the Cold War". But killing Hitler would not have done as much to avoid WWII as some people think in any even, so that is irrelevant.

just like in stargate: had the nox interfered, then we couldve been corrupted by the power we could just gain. just as we shouldnt have gotten asgard beam weapons in s3 to wipe out the goauld. we couldve done something like in "absolute power"

The Nox do not need to give anyone power. They themselves are capable of it. The Asgard understood this; just because we can't handle it doesn't mean that they can't use it to defend us.

[Buba uognarf]

still, what i dont get is an ancient aurora. jam it full with drones. then launch them en masse, at multiple hives. they could destroy entire hive fleets!!!

How do you know the Aurora's didn't do this? We've never seen a fully powered Ancient Aurora.

[Betelgeuze]

Not interfering isn't evil. There is no such thing as evil, just actions and consequenses. For instance the ascended Ancients usually do not interfere with the lower plains of existence because if a being as powerful as an ascended were to interfer, it might lead to a loss of free will for the lower beings. Like Chaya who protects the people of her planet, not just from the Wraith but all kinds of hardship. The result is that these people have no real progress because they are never challenged, they live in a paradise. The Ancients did allow a limited amount of interference in the war with the Ori, because this was a war against ascended beings. The lower beings would stand no chance against them on their own.

Now, the Nox are pacifists, but it is not true that they never interfere. They were willing to send a completely impartial judge to resolve the Skaara/Klorel case. Just because choose not to interfere with violence does not make them evil.

*(Actually, not quite; there are a few instances where total annihilation is justified, but total pacifism never is.)

Wow, Lt. Col. Mcoy, total annihilation is justified in some cases. I must admit that when faced with the two choices of eradicating the enemy, or being eradicated i would choose the former. But that doesn't make one choice more evil then the other. In a war both sides always belief that they are right. Other then the previously mentioned example i can think of no other reason why genocide would ever be justified.

[jnadreth]

Not interfering isn't evil-I agree completely

Not interfering when you are the ones responsable in the first place-thats when I have a problem. Just look at the Baggage the Ancients left behind. This is why I prefer the Asgard as they cleaned up after themselves and after the Tau'ri as well. Red Sky they could'nt interfer because it would have meant war with the Goa'uld and the Replicators but look at Cimmeria when we screwed up the Asgard sorted the problem, The Asgard were responsible enough to make sure that their knowledge and technology were tightly locked away with the Tau'ri after they dies-the Ancients left stuff all over the place and the Goa'uld ended up using it. Look how the Ancients messed up with Anubis-they let him have all the knowledge he would have had if he was a normal Goa'uld but made him unkillable just to make Oma feel bad. For all the problems the Ancients have given us I'm really starting to sympathize with the Asurans.

[Crazy Tom]

Wow, Lt. Col. Mcoy, total annihilation is justified in some cases. I must admit that when faced with the two choices of eradicating the enemy, or being eradicated i would choose the former. But that doesn't make one choice more evil then the other. In a war both sides always belief that they are right. Other then the previously mentioned example i can think of no other reason why genocide would ever be justified.

Morality in a inter-species war is a grey area. Their not human, do you feel guilty about that burger you had for dinner? Chances are not. Wraith are like tose burgers- no, crapy example, since their not entirely alien, and in fact, dominantly human.

We need a true alien for this example.

[jnadreth]

Would I feel guilty about the Big Mac I just ate- chances are its going to kill the next Wraith who tries to feed on me

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

This is ridiculous. Your entire argument is based on a relativistic understanding of right and wrong, which is completely self-destructive.


If we were debating in person, and I walked over and whacked you upside the head, would that be wrong?

If I killed your wife and kidnapped your children, would that be wrong?

If I used nuclear weapons to destroy *insert your homeland here*, would that be wrong?



Your argument is completely nihilistic. Even Darwinian Evolution doesn't have this horrible a notion on morality; right is what helps your species survive, wrong is what doesn't. Religious views (any religious views) are a step up from this (ie, most religions require some law, at the very least in relation to other believers).


Not to mention that if there is no right or wrong, you cannot say that there is definitely no right and wrong...because you would be saying that anyone who says differently is wrong. Your view cannot even support itself.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

This is ridiculous. Your entire argument is based on a relativistic understanding of right and wrong, which is completely self-destructive.


If we were debating in person, and I walked over and whacked you upside the head, would that be wrong?

If I killed your wife and kidnapped your children, would that be wrong?

If I used nuclear weapons to destroy *insert your homeland here*, would that be wrong?



Your argument is completely nihilistic. Even Darwinian Evolution doesn't have this horrible a notion on morality; right is what helps your species survive, wrong is what doesn't. Religious views (any religious views) are a step up from this (ie, most religions require some law, at the very least in relation to other believers).


Not to mention that if there is no right or wrong, you cannot say that there is definitely no right and wrong...because you would be saying that anyone who says differently is wrong. Your view cannot even support itself.

Just so I understand fully, are you saying it's all about perceptions, each person's/species's survival instincts, like from our side the Wraith are feeding off of Humans so we automatically see them as wrong and the Wraith automatically see us as being in the wrong for putting up a fight (possibly defeating them one day).
I guess from a Nox perspective they are in the right by doing nothing as they are not directly putting their species at risk, especially if they cloak and hide away coz they're attempting to preserve themselves by doing nothing.

[Crazy Tom]

This is ridiculous. Your entire argument is based on a relativistic understanding of right and wrong, which is completely self-destructive.


If we were debating in person, and I walked over and whacked you upside the head, would that be wrong?

If I killed your wife and kidnapped your children, would that be wrong?

If I used nuclear weapons to destroy *insert your homeland here*, would that be wrong?



Your argument is completely nihilistic. Even Darwinian Evolution doesn't have this horrible a notion on morality; right is what helps your species survive, wrong is what doesn't. Religious views (any religious views) are a step up from this (ie, most religions require some law, at the very least in relation to other believers).


Not to mention that if there is no right or wrong, you cannot say that there is definitely no right and wrong...because you would be saying that anyone who says differently is wrong. Your view cannot even support itself.

Mckoy, I honesly don't understand what you mean. Toataly confused now.

If an army of evil hamsters would rise up and decide to claim dominion over Earth, would you feel bad about takign a glof club and wacking fury rodents sky high? I know it sounds silly, but near with me.

Why does the issue of marality never pop up when somebody nukes a zombi infested town?

[jnadreth]

Or when we blow up the Asuran Homeworld, the Acturas system, Vorash, Alternate Chulak when General Oniell and Colonel Hammond nuked it, when we nailed the smurfs.

[Crazy Tom]

Or when we blow up the Asuran Homeworld, the Acturas system, Vorash, Alternate Chulak when General Oniell and Colonel Hammond nuked it, when we nailed the smurfs.

Yah, nobody complains then.......... I'm starting to see a patern here....

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

What do you mean?

There are three views of morality:

1. There is no morality at all; nothing is right under any circumstances, nothing is wrong under any circumstances.

2. Right is what helps you, wrong is what hurts you; everyone has their own morality. (Darwinistic Evolution stretches this from individuals to species)

3. Right is what *my religion* says it is, and wrong is what *my religion* says it is; morality is the same for everyone.



I hold the third belief. (I am a Christian)



So no, I don't believe that morals vary between perspectives, and I have no problem with genocide against the Wraith. (Because they are technically, based on the description of their theorized evolution, merely smart animals.)


(Or with wiping out zombies or giant, evil hamsters for that matter...not that I believe that they could exist...)