The Tau'ri and Genocide

[jnadreth]

Yep the ones that tried to eat Sheppards food-I was just pointing out what the usual response would be to a wraith

[Ouroboros]

LMAO!

Nice diatribe. Completely off point, but nice nonetheless.

Off point? What thread did you wander into.

Simple question: What non-combatants have they attacked at any point? The only way the word genocide can ever be properly applied is if non-combatants are killed in an attempt to exterminate a race. Since they have not attacked ANY civilian population, you can't use the word genocide - well not correctly anyway.

Genocide does not require the deaths of non combatants to "count" as genocide, genocide is the extermination of a cultural, religious or ethnic group. In this case with it being an entire species and not just a group from one that's set to be exterminated, what they are doing would actually amount to something even larger in scope than genocide. Calling them genocidal is giving them a break. They'd be genocidal if they only wanted to kill all of the Wraith with the bluish skin or all of the ones from a given part of the galaxy. They've got grander plans than that though.

On an aside, it sounds like you're critiquing a book and not a TV show. You can't always write a show as detailed as it sounds like you would like it to be.

You can certainly write it so that it doesn't come off as advocating galaxy wide genocide of a sentient species as the best answer. How hard can that be, really now.

Icompletely agree with what Ouroboros is saying as the only enemy that are as evil as they are said to be are the replicators as they wanted to wipe out humans so that the wraith had nothing to feed on. The Wraith, I would at least consider helping them to overcome the whole feeding on humans thing-hell why did'nt the ancients try it-or were they to busy thinking about their own ascention????-why all the genicide only the replicators are anywhere near to what the borg have done as they both have threatoned entire galaxys existance

It's the rapidity with which they jumped to the genocide that really sticks with me to.

Like I said they have access to technology that could potentially feed the Wraith in such a way that no sentients need be harmed. They also have the knowledge that Wraith, at least queens, can eat solid food for many years and thus at least at one point could be sustained by it.

Rather than focus their efforts in the direction of finding them an alternate foodsource so they'll leave the poor humans alone, which seems like a much easier option, they jump to planning their wholesale extermination with elaborate bioweapons and such. They just show up in pegasus one day, declare the native species evil and say "ok we're going to kill you all now because we don't like the way you're acting over here".

The arrogance astounds.

They're 50 some odd people billions of lightyears away from where they belong and they're not only going to start telling the natives how to act but they're going to start killing them by the species for not measuring up to their personal alien standards of morality.

If the original Daniel Jackson was still around to see acts like this being commited by humanity through the stargate, he'd drop dead on the spot just so that he could start spinning in his grave at lightspeed.

[redrama9]

There's also the small issue of every single member of the Asuran race wanting to kill us and every human they can get their hands on. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until we are dead.

been watching too much Terminator 1 hey? just joking

[redrama9]

i ment those fireflies near the crashed wraith transport ship, that wraith appeared to enjoy feeding on them

i dont think he did feed on them just squished them

[jnadreth]

"If the original Daniel Jackson was still around to see acts like this being commited by humanity through the stargate, he'd drop dead on the spot just so that he could start spinning in his grave at lightspeed."

We were lucky to have the Asgard looking after us instead of the Ancients-Like the Tech-Hate the Arrogence, remember the Arcturas Planet where the Ancients put one extremely powerful untested reactor on a Habited planet(heavily) and ended up killing all of them.

[garhkal]

Sorry for double post, but I also think people are applying genocide to liberally. We are NOT committing genocide. We are in war - one where the enemy will not surrender. Genocide is the unmerciless killing of everyone in a group, whether they want to fight or not. We are fighting for our defense, not because we simply want a group or people of things removed from existence.

True, genocide is probabily not the right word, but it is the most fitting..

True, but the Asgard weren't under threat of death, either. They knew they could utterly annihilate the Goauld and the Goauld weren't outright at war with them. Considering Atlantis has been under near constant attack, I would consider what we did to the Goauld in earlier in SG1 more genocide then what we did later in SG1 or Atlantis.

The last attack we have suffered from them was back in season 2... All of season 3 and what we have had of season 4 we have not had any real problems with the wraith attacking us.. so therefore that justification is gone.

Early in SG1, after we were added to the protected planets treaty, we were picking off Goauld left and right knowing they would/could not attack us. We were not in direct war, and even though the Goauld would have enslaved us given the chance, they couldn't face the Asgard. Still though, we went out and continued to pretty much assassinate any Goauld Lord we could. I consider that to be much more like Genocide then the victory's over the Replicators in both galaxies or the destruction of the Ori. All three of which would not ever stop until we destroyed in anyway possible.

Very true. We were never at war with the Gou'ald, especially after we got included in the protected planets treaty. Well except for maybe anubis... But we still continued to kill them when we could. So would that make us the evil ones??

It's like they want genocide to be their only option.

It does seem that way, doesn't it..

They just show up in pegasus one day, declare the native species evil and say "ok we're going to kill you all now because we don't like the way you're acting over here".

The arrogance astounds.

They're 50 some odd people billions of lightyears away from where they belong and they're not only going to start telling the natives how to act but they're going to start killing them by the species for not measuring up to their personal alien standards of morality.

It does.. That is one reason i was rooting for Koyla in the Eye.Storm duet.. I actually agreed with him when he said that we are arrogant to think we had more right to atlantis than the decendants of the alterans IN THE pegasus galaxy.. Heck Wier said it best back in season 7... We are still pushing Manifest destiny..

[Jeffala]

That is one reason i was rooting for Koyla in the Eye.Storm duet.. I actually agreed with him when he said that we are arrogant to think we had more right to atlantis than the decendants of the alterans IN THE pegasus galaxy.. Heck Wier said it best back in season 7... We are still pushing Manifest destiny..

Without possessing the ATA gene (and they don't have it as established in "Coup D'Etat") how can they have any claim to Atlantis? I mean, unless they just want to sit around in a powered-down cityship that they can't do anything with.

[J_schinderlin56]

Give me a break. It was us or them. I vote them.

[Opener]

Say there's a group of people in your neighborhood who're completely bent on getting out of their house and killing the rest of the neighborhood. You get them to stay in their own house, and you even board it up, but you know that they're sitting in there, coming up with ways to get out and making weapon after weapon in order to kill everyone they see after breaking through a wall into the back yard. Are you going to let them just sit there and get stronger, or are you going to do something about it. Ultimately it comes down to you or them, so are you going to sit by the TV and let them break into your house and kill you with an axe? You can't call for help because as far as you know there's no one to help you.

That's exactly what happened. The Asurans are waging total war, with every single member of their millions intent on wiping out every human man, woman, and child in existence. It's not like a normal war, where someone on the other side can have a second thought about what they're doing. Ultimately it's either them or us, and we don't know of anyone who could provide another solution in time to stop more people from getting killed.

And as far as the Wraith are concerned, if we really wanted to kill them all, the Daedalus and Apollo would be carrying nukes and biological weapons back from Earth, not supplies and personnel.

And never at war with the Goa'uld? What do you call the asteroid in Failsafe, or the energy weapon Anubis used against us in the two Redemption episodes?

[Ouroboros]

Say there's a group of people in your neighborhood who're completely bent on getting out of their house and killing the rest of the neighborhood. You get them to stay in their own house, and you even board it up, but you know that they're sitting in there, coming up with ways to get out and making weapon after weapon in order to kill everyone they see after breaking through a wall into the back yard. Are you going to let them just sit there and get stronger, or are you going to do something about it. Ultimately it comes down to you or them, so are you going to sit by the TV and let them break into your house and kill you with an axe? You can't call for help because as far as you know there's no one to help you.

I don't know if you realize this but this analogy also works 100% perfectly to describe Atlantis in the Pegasus galaxy with the expedition inside.

We were lucky to have the Asgard looking after us instead of the Ancients-Like the Tech-Hate the Arrogence, remember the Arcturas Planet where the Ancients put one extremely powerful untested reactor on a Habited planet(heavily) and ended up killing all of them.

I'm sure thy said they were sorry to the corpses. Nah who am I kidding, they would be too arrogant for that even. They probably just built another one on another planet because if there is one thing they do do great it's never learn.

[kymeric]

didnt

Spoiler:

adria die? when the ancient attacked her

Wouldnt know, isnt downloading stealing? Ill wait for the dvd tyvm

[kymeric]

Off point? What thread did you wander into.



Genocide does not require the deaths of non combatants to "count" as genocide, genocide is the extermination of a cultural, religious or ethnic group. In this case with it being an entire species and not just a group from one that's set to be exterminated, what they are doing would actually amount to something even larger in scope than genocide. Calling them genocidal is giving them a break. They'd be genocidal if they only wanted to kill all of the Wraith with the bluish skin or all of the ones from a given part of the galaxy. They've got grander plans than that though.



You can certainly write it so that it doesn't come off as advocating galaxy wide genocide of a sentient species as the best answer. How hard can that be, really now.



It's the rapidity with which they jumped to the genocide that really sticks with me to.

Like I said they have access to technology that could potentially feed the Wraith in such a way that no sentients need be harmed. They also have the knowledge that Wraith, at least queens, can eat solid food for many years and thus at least at one point could be sustained by it.

Rather than focus their efforts in the direction of finding them an alternate foodsource so they'll leave the poor humans alone, which seems like a much easier option, they jump to planning their wholesale extermination with elaborate bioweapons and such. They just show up in pegasus one day, declare the native species evil and say "ok we're going to kill you all now because we don't like the way you're acting over here".

The arrogance astounds.

They're 50 some odd people billions of lightyears away from where they belong and they're not only going to start telling the natives how to act but they're going to start killing them by the species for not measuring up to their personal alien standards of morality.

If the original Daniel Jackson was still around to see acts like this being commited by humanity through the stargate, he'd drop dead on the spot just so that he could start spinning in his grave at lightspeed.

I somehow picture u running infront of a soilder scream NO DONT HURT THE WRAITH then being fed on Hippy <3

[garhkal]

And never at war with the Goa'uld? What do you call the asteroid in Failsafe, or the energy weapon Anubis used against us in the two Redemption episodes?

Both of those were anubis's way to try and wipe us out without declaring war on us due to us being part of the protected planets treaty.;

[YutheGreat]

Ori incident. They really had no other choice than to use merlin's weapon. Conventional tools were ineffective. The Ori would have sent more and more followers to the MW until there are no more people on one side that will challenge them. Maybe that is the a better option.

Replicators. I may be splitting hairs here but as McKay said they are machines who want to and actually are destroying humans.

I am for the live and let live policy. I would have like it more if they remove the rage from their code and let them devote their life to attaining ascension but even if they succeeded Oberoth might just put the code back in. They opened a Pandora's box when they activate the command code that they simply could not close again.

War Crimes like Genocide. I read a little on the subject. In a book I read. It stated something like the Victors are the one who prosecute the criminals and they rarely prosecute their own soldiers and ussually it is because of public outrage.

I don't think this is right or it is just but these things happen. It is a sad thing but it is.

[Mister Oragahn]

1. Arcturus... on a planet?... was it really necessary? Couldn't they just build a small space station, somewhere, and make their tests there?
Nope, not enough drama in case things wrong.

2. Cloning humans, or sort of... I'm not sure that would work. There's that whole "soul juice" thing going on. Besides, the Lantians know Dakaran tech, they know beaming transporters, they can fiddle with the genetics of creatures and, if Merlin's device was older than Atlantis, literally build stuff out of the blue.
My point is that I don't think any cloning could solve the food problem for the Wraith.

Now, I think the retrovirus is the solution. Don't get me wrong, it's been horribly written and is largely inconsistent. It should have been properly identified as a lantian project, because claiming that Beckett invented the stuff was downright nonsensical and truly stupid.

There are not many solutions for the Wraith:

1. Genocide.
2. Go find some subsitute somewhere else (kicked out of Pegasus, and may die en route).
3. Find some kind of mystical well that feeds them, a sort of rift that pours "soul energy" from some dimension of ascension or something, and all the Wraith move their whole civilization in that sector of the galaxy.
4. They all suicide themselves.
5. They all go into hibernation.
6. They all ascend and ironically become the guardians of that galaxy, protecting the humans they once fed upon.
7. Turn into humans.
8. Find an artificial mean, through technology, to feed or stop needing to feed. Something not related to the retrovirus.
9. They turn against each other.
10. They evolve into insects which only need blood.
11. They realize that Guinness a good substitute for... food (which it is).