The Tau'ri and Genocide

[Ouroboros]

Ouroboros: I'm beginning to suspect that you have forgotten the basic political structure of the show. The Atlantis expedition is primarily a military operation. They receive their funding from the IOA that has charged them with a primary job of keeping Earth safe from outside threats. Expecting them to have a focus other than military in basis is somewhat unrealistic IMO. I guess we could make our 'team' a group of pacifists and scientists - replace Ronon and Shep - and exchange our sets of military ships with big laboratory sets instead. To tell the story, they have limited funds for actors and interior set building, and to do more of what you are proposing, something would have to go. I suppose it could be done, but that would be an entirely different story.

The expedition was originally supposed to be civillian led remember? Yeah I know it never felt that way but I guess it doesn't matter since that whole idea is down the tubes officially now.

If you want to talk about realism the real fact of the matter is Earth is militarily pathetic. You take away the shields provided by the plot and you're left with a small fraction of a single nation's 21st century military taking on entire alien societies with not only vastly more territory and manpower but better technology and more experience in both planetary exploration and space warfare. You can't say that a military solution is a more realistic solution to a problem like that of the Wraith. In anything even remotely resembling reality the mere idea of opposing a society like that on direct military terms would have at best earned laughter. It would simply put be suicidal to even consider. These sorts of societies would crush Earth and the USA in an afternoon were they not as hamstrung by the plot as they inevitably always are. The only hope for ever dealing with them in any realistic sense would be clever diplomacy, coy manipulations of various powers against one another, or teaming up with one of the friendlier ones for protection.

Simply put it should require extreme intelligence and cunning to gain ground against adversaries like them. It's possible to be quite ruthless without ever picking up a gun as well so they needn't be pascifists at all.

I still find your use of the word 'genocide' as offensive. You're taking a word from Earth that relates to the attempted destruction of complete human societies and attempting to apply it to aliens in which (as far as we know) their entire population are combatants. You have to see that there is a significant difference in scenarios.

One of the best advantages to the sci-fi genere in general is that it allows you to examine issues that are present in the modern world in a detached fashion so as not to directly offend any one group involved and get around all the various loaded words and accusations.

You can examine racism in 60s America but using blue aliens and red aliens for example.

You can see Captain Kirk interact with these two groups of aliens, see how much they hate each other, see how stupid and trivial it seems and then try to reflect that back into the real world. "Gee when you look at it like that racism is pretty stupid given how trvially different we are, just like the aliens in the show. We just can't always see it for being as stupid as it is because we're right in the middle of it, just like they were and likewise didn't either".

In this case they've brought in the idea of an aggressive alien power and chosen to depict them as one dimensional "evil doers" and presented the best solution to them as being genocide. Now they might not have intended this to be a commentary on real world situations, I don't think they did, but what do you get when you try to reflect what they showed you back into the real world like I just did with the Kirk example?

You're right in that the show shows that most of the enemy aliens are combative and that itself is one of the problems. The shallowness of it is a major problem. Rather than give a more honest depiction of the Wraith as a society of aliens who have to feed on humans they try to skew things entirely to the human biased perspective and present them instead as "evil space monsters". This in itself would be bad enough in terms of shallowness but they compound it by also doing episodes that show us very clearly that Wraith individuals are NOT simply shallow space monsters but actually creatures very much like human beings, only cursed by the need to feed on others.

What you end up with then is almost like some sort of warped propaganda scenario. The team KNOWS that the Wraith aren't really a bunch of slathering space devils hell bent on torment and pain just to satisfy their evil space sadism, but the writing is still going to choose to have the chracters act like that's the case.

You reflect that behaviour back into the real world context and what do you get.

Nothing good that's for sure.

I get the point that you don't like the story and that you think they should tell a different story, no problem. I don't get why you waste so much energy over something completely beyond your control.

Couldn't every post on this forum be considered a waste of energy by those standards though?

One might also say that if I'm wasting my time even talking about it then surely you're wasting even more time arguing with me about the exact definition of some of the words I've used.

I also dispute your usage of the term "ex deus machina" but will roll with it for now. I don't think it will be that dramatic a change at the end of the show. I think there will be hints along the way, with all of it building up to the ending. It won't be as sudden as an Ex Deus Machina in traditional definition.

I think it's deus ex machina actually, god out of a machine. Basically the idea that someone writes themselves into a corner they can't get out of easily or naturally so a "god" is brought in and fixes everything at the end.

For example the "Ark of Truth" is a perfect example of a completely shameless deus ex machina.

[Crazy Tom]

i htought the ark was a mcgauffin(how do you spell that?)

[ciannwn]

Obviously, the criteria has changed since season 2. I dunno, I think it was just the way they tied up the Asgard storyline. I really don't think we should read much into it.

It's a bit difficult to forget, though, when Carter is now in charge of Atlantis. After all, she was central to the activities which made the Asgard decide that the Tau'ri are 'great'. If it's all to do with brain development we could make a case for the Wraith qualifying as the Sixth Race. They've developed advanced technology and their brains enable them to do things which the Tau'ri can't such as cause hallucinations.

Gotta agree there. I'm just not sure what it means. I would point out that they only originally planned to use the retrovirus at the behest of another clan of Wraith - granted they ended up double crossing us, but whatever. You gotta love the voice of Humanity that Beckett brought in those circumstances.

It gives me the impression that Weir and co decided to shelve the problem for future generations of humans to solve.

Ok. I'll buy that. I presume that they have someone working on it but not wasting screen time on it.

Agreed. A mention that somebody was working on it would be enough. There'd be no need to have screen time devoted to a scientist slaving away in a lab if it's not relevant to where the story's got to so far. It could even be done on the lines of "Maybe if we find a viable alternative for the Wraith we'd be able to start some kind of negotiations with them."

I hear ya, but it's kind of something we're stuck with because they are trying to set it in current day Earth as if it's really going on and nobody knows about it. The fact that it's primarily the US military is something that you just have to live with because the US is the market that it's written for. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that it's an inescapable fact.

If it was a British show we'd all have to live with it being the British military for the same reasons.

I also have to say the Star Wars changed my life at age 11. I saw the movie 23 times in the summer of '77.

Star Wars is unique.

On the non Sci Fi side of things, my favorite author is Dick Francis.

Is that Dick Francis as in the retired National Hunt jockey who writes racing thrillers? If so, I haven't read any of his books for years but I used to enjoy them a lot.

All that being said, I really respect your opinions, but think that some of the things you would like to see done differently are not just small cosmetic changes. I think they would alter the structure of how the series is developed and produced as well. That would make it something completely different than what it is right now that is successful. In this case I go by the old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

I'm not writing the show so I think it's safe from major changes. I'm just contributing to a discussion topic which, as with any discussion topic, depends on the different posters' points of view. I'm looking at the way the show presents various things, what impressions I've got from it and saying how I'd prefer it if the approach was modified to some extent. I honestly don't think that TPTB are reading all my posts and taking notes for future stories, though

[BloomGate]

It's a bit difficult to forget, though, when Carter is now in charge of Atlantis. After all, she was central to the activities which made the Asgard decide that the Tau'ri are 'great'. If it's all to do with brain development we could make a case for the Wraith qualifying as the Sixth Race. They've developed advanced technology and their brains enable them to do things which the Tau'ri can't such as cause hallucinations.

I agree, but I think that it's a tangent that the writers have just chosen to forget about - like the Furlings. Oh, and I wouldn't sell the Tau'ri short in their abilites to cause hallucinations. When I saw Sam and Vala coming back to base from shopping in Family Ties and they mentioned Victoria's Secret, I at least went into a few daydreams. Oh wait, that probably had nothing to do with their brain development. Never mind.

It gives me the impression that Weir and co decided to shelve the problem for future generations of humans to solve.

Sounds good to me.

Agreed. A mention that somebody was working on it would be enough. There'd be no need to have screen time devoted to a scientist slaving away in a lab if it's not relevant to where the story's got to so far. It could even be done on the lines of "Maybe if we find a viable alternative for the Wraith we'd be able to start some kind of negotiations with them."

Ok. I don't think TPTB are even thinking in that direction, but ok.

Is that Dick Francis as in the retired National Hunt jockey who writes racing thrillers? If so, I haven't read any of his books for years but I used to enjoy them a lot.

Yes it is. If you're interested in picking one up again, one of my favs is To the Hilt which was published in 1996. A funny aside to all that is that I currently live 1 mile from Arlington Park which is mentioned in one of his novels as the best facilities of any racecourse in the world. My daughter and I went for Father's day this year. We have a system. She picks the name she likes of any of the horses with 10:1 odds or higher and we bet $2 to show. We usually end up losing a little, but come close to breaking even. If you figure the entertainment value of a 6 hour day at the races, it's pretty good and costs alot less than 3 movies at the theater.

I'm not writing the show so I think it's safe from major changes. I'm just contributing to a discussion topic which, as with any discussion topic, depends on the different posters' points of view. I'm looking at the way the show presents various things, what impressions I've got from it and saying how I'd prefer it if the approach was modified to some extent. I honestly don't think that TPTB are reading all my posts and taking notes for future stories, though

Really, I think they read ALL of mine and are on the verge of offering me a job! [/sarcasm]

[ciannwn]

Oh, and I wouldn't sell the Tau'ri short in their abilites to cause hallucinations. When I saw Sam and Vala coming back to base from shopping in Family Ties and they mentioned Victoria's Secret, I at least went into a few daydreams. Oh wait, that probably had nothing to do with their brain development. Never mind.

Spoiler:

The following line from 'Quarantine' probably had a similar effect on a lot of female viewers.

DEX: Actually, I slipped in the shower.

He's a Satedan, not Tau'ri , so there!!!!!

If you figure the entertainment value of a 6 hour day at the races, it's pretty good and costs alot less than 3 movies at the theater.

That brings back memories. Mind you, most times I spent a day at the races it was freezing cold because of the unpredictable British weather.

[garhkal]

That's a writing choice to keep setting up the situation that way and that's mainly what I take issue with, the message that that sends. It's especially bad in the case of the Wraith as I've noted because of how human like they are. Like I said earlier depicting them as irredeemably evil, even despite contary examples from the same show, and showing how to beat them we need to wipe them all out is a very small step removed from saying the same thing about human cultures who might hold beliefs radically different and directly and agressively opposed from our own.

Very true, and imo it shows we humans are more evil than the wraith...

He's not the only one. Everyone on base seems to think that human life is inherently superior to any other form of intelligent life for some reason they never attempt to explain.

True. We have already used that "speciesism" (for lack of a better term) to obliterate many of the species on this planet. now we are out there doing it to others..

This is the part i have never agreed wtih. What gives us earth based humans such right to judge something else as to whether they are right to live or not..?

The replicators and the asurans are machines, albeit very advanced machines.

But are we not also just machines, just made up of different stuff?

Ouroboros, sometimes I ask myself if you're joking with these posts. There is no possible coexistence with the Wraith because Humans are food. Period. Even if the Wraith are sympathetic to Humans - most are not -, it still doesen't change the fact they must kill to survive. Like I said before, unless the Wraith genetically engineer themselves to eat regular organic matter, or find a way to manufacture life force, they must de exterminated. Nothing personal; survival of the fittest.

Then would they not be more fit to survive, since they have natral regeneration and a much longer lifespan than us??

Besides, even if it is possible for the Wraith to be changed so as to eat regular food or if it's possible to feed them with artifical life force, it still begs the question of whether the Wraith deserve to survive. After all, they terrorized and butchered Humans by the millions throughout 10 000 years. Sure, they had no choice, but Humans are not to blame for the Wraith's dietary needs either. And also, it has been shown that Wraith enjoy sadistically hunting down and torturing Humans they can't cull. So why should the Wraith survive? The Human species has every right to exterminate the Wraith in retaliation for all the teror, pain, heartache and loss of Human lives they caused for so long. So yes, I am in favor of genocide in the case of the Wraith.

And are we not less worthy than they are with our history being as long as theirs is with all our countless wars, attrocities etc??? What makes us more right to live than them??

I'm complaining about the stupidly over the top black and white "they're evil we're good even when we're acting the same or worse" type of presentation I'm getting. The way they present the idea of humanity coming into conflict with an alien society is so biased and frankly ridiculous in it's demonization of the foe AND it's over exaggeration of humanity as "good" that it comes off as nearly propagandistic.

Well said Ouroboros.. we have already seen that type of mentality even be used to justify us forcing our beliefs on other cultures.

[Ouroboros]

Very true, and imo it shows we humans are more evil than the wraith...

I remember a thread about that same topic a few years ago. If you actually look at the evidence objectively, in particular human historical evidence, it's hard to come up with a set of reasonable criteria to measure "evil" by which we wouldn't end up looking like the "eviler" species overall.

The badguys in a PG-13 rated TV show are just never going to measure up to the sort of horrors perpetrated by the human race against itself over the ages.

True. We have already used that "speciesism" (for lack of a better term) to obliterate many of the species on this planet. now we are out there doing it to others..

This is the part i have never agreed wtih. What gives us earth based humans such right to judge something else as to whether they are right to live or not..?

The frequency with which it appears is really begining to worry me now. Every other species/culture seems to fall into one of a very few limited categories.

-allies/occasional helpers
-loveable harmless bumpkins
-"evil" infeariors

It's impossible for a species to be an adversary and their lives not be trivilized as having no value in the process. This pretty much means that every war would almost inevitably end in a genocide. If you get the upper hand what's going to stop you from killing them all if that's how you think of them?

But are we not also just machines, just made up of different stuff?

It's funny that the same "are they really alive" question that provides a huge chunk of BSGs multi season arc material for the Cylons is the same one this show didn't even think to ask about the Asurans.

Well said Ouroboros.. we have already seen that type of mentality even be used to justify us forcing our beliefs on other cultures.

Indeed, that's another thing that sticks with me to. We went to their galaxy to tell them all how to live and now we're going to try and wipe them out if they don't listen.

It's like messing with another country times 1 billion lightyears worth of "mind your own ******* business why don't you". Now they shouldn't be able to throw their military weight around to do this in this case, as is the custom here on Earth, but the lousy writing and shield of plot makes even that laughable option viable.

Meet our demands alien empire or it's WAR and we'll crush you with our three ships and couple hundred guys!

[Mister Oragahn]

Well, Weir naïvely evoquated Geneva back in Rising, and I think the rebel Asurans tried to argue with humans that they were not different than machines... but at some point, someone said they don't have the "soul".

Stargate is stuck with a double language. At the beginning, they changed the premise of the Goa'uld's essence and reign by saying they impersonated gods, instead of creating almost everything on Earth from A to Z (I'm skipping the details). Probably to appease the religious beliefs of some.
Then they came with ascension, and that was just too spritual, so they had to dumb it down and make it more materialistic, with experiments, scientific research and machines of ascension. Then they come with the Asurans, and the more they free them from the bits of code which limited them, they become more human. Ooops, dang, we need to make them less than humans.
Here comes the convenient soul thing.

It's like messing with another country times 1 billion lightyears worth of "mind your own ******* business why don't you". Now they shouldn't be able to throw their military weight around to do this in this case, as is the custom here on Earth, but the lousy writing and shield of plot makes even that laughable option viable.

Arguably, the treaty of Westphalia never was a problem here.

Now, let's not forget that humans went to Atlantis to find weapons against Anubis, ended in another galaxy, and didn't expect to find space vampires feeding upon other humans. I can understand that one would like to free humans from such creatures.

But the problem with the show is that it's written in a childish way, and it's almost always mono-dimensional. Not to say the abuse and misuse of technological trinklets at most convenient moments doesn't help to solidify the show's tenets, and, on the contrary, hurts its credibility.

Season 4 was supposed to be a reboot, the end of the season looking like the soporific work of a totally mislead bunch of sophomores nonwithstanding, it took a lot of time to start seeing some kind of Wraith ally, or at least an emissary who could speak for his brethren. Still, notice that his presence was mostly used to come with more technotoys to anihilate a whole species of sentient and sapient beings.
Since the absolutely genius Common Ground, nothing has been really explored that much.

That show is written for kids, and completely skip opportunities to genuinely adress questions which would mirror real life events, which is what the SF is often about.

[ciannwn]

At the beginning, they changed the premise of the Goa'uld's essence and reign by saying they impersonated gods, instead of creating almost everything on Earth from A to Z (I'm skipping the details). Probably to appease the religious beliefs of some.

I'm going to defend the TPTB here for a change. In the original Stargate movie, Ra is an alien life form. Although there were changes to various details in SG1 they kept the original idea of gods from outer space. Long before the movie ever came out Erich von Däniken was writing books which supposedly proved that the gods of ancient cultures were really alien astronauts. I'm guessing that the original move was inspired by von Däniken's ideas.

But the problem with the show is that it's written in a childish way, and it's almost always mono-dimensional.

That show is written for kids, and completely skip opportunities to genuinely adress questions which would mirror real life events, which is what the SF is often about.

Childish writing and writing for kids don't automatically go hand in hand. The Harry Potter books were written for kids and wizard world society/events mirror real life society/events and not just the cosy, pretty ones either.

[Mister Oragahn]

I'm going to defend the TPTB here for a change. In the original Stargate movie, Ra is an alien life form. Although there were changes to various details in SG1 they kept the original idea of gods from outer space. Long before the movie ever came out Erich von Däniken was writing books which supposedly proved that the gods of ancient cultures were really alien astronauts. I'm guessing that the original move was inspired by von Däniken's ideas.

The initial idea was typical Von Daniken stuff. The point is that the writers attempted to tone it down, but simply didn't think hard about it.
The ships already had all the humanoid and egyptian decorum before they came to Earth - which itself would have pointed to the former hosts, show wise, were very human like, even before finding Earth - and the Goa'uld would obviously not trade their language and computer language for the primitive words of a bunch of sort of stoneage guys stuck in a desert, which means that the egyptian talk was from the Goa'uld.
There's of course the curious idea that the Goa'uld would even need to steal the personalities of made up gods created from the humans back then, while imposing their own persons would be much more effective, simple and powerful. But this was done not to shock the people who hold money I suppose. From the moment you say, openly, that the gods back then were just BS and made up, and prevents you from saying the same for Allah, Christ, God, Buddha and the same lot.
Do you really think the Goa'uld would bother analyzing the culture of the natives and ask them, after learning their limited languages, worldwide, what gods they believe in and what they are?
No, this is conquest, and like in any conquest, you bring your gods with you. In that case, the Goa'uld would be the gods themselves.

Childish writing and writing for kids don't automatically go hand in hand. The Harry Potter books were written for kids and wizard world society/events mirror real life society/events and not just the cosy, pretty ones either.

In late Stargate's case, they do go both hand in hand.
No matter how Potter's universe feels just a mixed bag of all folklore and clichés you can find while browsing ancyclopedia mythica, I find the Potter films more enjoyable than any late Stargate, safe a few episodes here and there.

[BloomGate]

The initial idea was typical Von Daniken stuff. The point is that the writers attempted to tone it down, but simply didn't think hard about it.
The ships already had all the humanoid and egyptian decorum before they came to Earth - which itself would have pointed to the former hosts, show wise, were very human like, even before finding Earth - and the Goa'uld would obviously not trade their language and computer language for the primitive words of a bunch of sort of stoneage guys stuck in a desert, which means that the egyptian talk was from the Goa'uld.
There's of course the curious idea that the Goa'uld would even need to steal the personalities of made up gods created from the humans back then, while imposing their own persons would be much more effective, simple and powerful. But this was done not to shock the people who hold money I suppose. From the moment you say, openly, that the gods back then were just BS and made up, and prevents you from saying the same for Allah, Christ, God, Buddha and the same lot.
Do you really think the Goa'uld would bother analyzing the culture of the natives and ask them, after learning their limited languages, worldwide, what gods they believe in and what they are?
No, this is conquest, and like in any conquest, you bring your gods with you. In that case, the Goa'uld would be the gods themselves.

In late Stargate's case, they do go both hand in hand.
No matter how Potter's universe feels just a mixed bag of all folklore and clichés you can find while browsing ancyclopedia mythica, I find the Potter films more enjoyable than any late Stargate, safe a few episodes here and there.

You DO realize that this is a television show designed for viewing by the American public right? Your complaints would make sense if we were talking about a book or series of books with a different target audience. It would be different if it were a show that didn't have to deal with the American networks to get financed. I really think your problem is with the limitations of what it takes to get a show made for American TV. The writers aren't given the time to completely think out how they would plot out a Universe in such detail for an 11 year run. The writers have a general idea on where they want to go with the overall story, but more of their time is spent figuring out what cast members they will have when, how much they have in the budget for the season, and deciding how much they want to allocate to studio/location shooting, and CGI. ALL of those things are determined before they even write any scripts. Instead of approaching it saying, "How can we put together the best and most cohesive show possible?" they end up having to take the approach "How can we tell the most entertaining stories we can within the limitations that we are stuck with?" I guarantee you can't name a show developed for American TV that hasn't had these same issues.

Like I said, if you are writing a book, you have the luxury of doing all the things you propose.. However, with the way the American TV system works, it's a horribly unrealistic expectation.

[Ouroboros]

Well, Weir naïvely evoquated Geneva back in Rising, and I think the rebel Asurans tried to argue with humans that they were not different than machines... but at some point, someone said they don't have the "soul".

Kinda reminds me of the dialog and justifications that were given in Michael. where they justified their abduction and torture of him on the grounds that they were "fixing" him from being an evil and unnatural species and he sould basically be greatful. When he didn't see it that way himself they told him there was another option, they'd just murder him instead.

The writing of course presents it so that the heroes seem to win the argument with reasoning like this, which is the most frustating part of all to have to sit through.

Humanity's finest indeed.

Stargate is stuck with a double language. At the beginning, they changed the premise of the Goa'uld's essence and reign by saying they impersonated gods, instead of creating almost everything on Earth from A to Z (I'm skipping the details). Probably to appease the religious beliefs of some.
Then they came with ascension, and that was just too spritual, so they had to dumb it down and make it more materialistic, with experiments, scientific research and machines of ascension. Then they come with the Asurans, and the more they free them from the bits of code which limited them, they become more human. Ooops, dang, we need to make them less than humans.
Here comes the convenient soul thing.

Yes, the same "say one thing and show another" problem that affects enemy credability extends to the ethics and characters as well. Basically they'll tell you one thing "the Asurans are a terrible, advanced and deadly foe" and then show you top of the line Asuran ships getting blown in half by 302 missiles or Earth's little gocarts with alien tech taped on. It's no different in terms of the ethics.

"The Wraith are an evil and horrible race" who sleep for hundreds of years at their own inconvenience rather than farm humans industrially, and are apparently really only motivated to violence for the most part by their need to eat/survive?

What they say and what they show rarely match.

Arguably, the treaty of Westphalia never was a problem here.

Now, let's not forget that humans went to Atlantis to find weapons against Anubis, ended in another galaxy, and didn't expect to find space vampires feeding upon other humans. I can understand that one would like to free humans from such creatures.

It makes you wonder to. With Anubis dead and Earth now recieving all the universes cheatcodes for free from the Asgard why do they even stay and continue to provoke the Wraith with their pressence and by meddling in their affairs?

Wouldn't it be a better idea at this point to just set up a few long range listening posts in the halo stars to look out for some sort of possible giant Wraith invasion fleet of doom and use the wanktech to build a few defence platforms on the dark side of the moon?

The Wraith are so far up their own asses now with infighting that it's unlikely they'll ever get around to making any sort of attempt at Earth before they all go to bed again for a few hundred years. They don't even know where it is for one thing, now that that queen/ship that found out is dead. All logic would say get the city and expedition out of there and just forget about pegasus. There is nothing to be gained there anymore and every day spent is one more day in which the Wraith could potentially take Atlantis or one of the wankwagons and learn everything, a far more likely doomsday scenario than them crossing the void blindly on their own and just happening to end up on Earth's doorstep.

While obviously doing this would end the show I can't think of any logical in story reason why there isn't at least a very strong push from say, the IOA, for exactly this type of full withdrawl to happen. Sympathy for the various people in Pegasus can only extend so far. It's not Earth's job to go around the universe like some sort of superhero team, especially when doing so potentially exposes literally billions of unknowing unconsenting individuals to the possible threat of alien anihilation. The Americans might like ****ing with these various alien empires but if those aliens ever get the chance to **** with them back it's very unlikely that they'll confine their retaliation to only within US borders, or even the borders of the "member states" who sent a few token guys for the Americans to command around.

But the problem with the show is that it's written in a childish way, and it's almost always mono-dimensional. Not to say the abuse and misuse of technological trinklets at most convenient moments doesn't help to solidify the show's tenets, and, on the contrary, hurts its credibility.

Season 4 was supposed to be a reboot, the end of the season looking like the soporific work of a totally mislead bunch of sophomores nonwithstanding, it took a lot of time to start seeing some kind of Wraith ally, or at least an emissary who could speak for his brethren. Still, notice that his presence was mostly used to come with more technotoys to anihilate a whole species of sentient and sapient beings.
Since the absolutely genius Common Ground, nothing has been really explored that much.

That show is written for kids, and completely skip opportunities to genuinely adress questions which would mirror real life events, which is what the SF is often about.

Indeed. If there's one phrase that I would use to describe Atlantis it wouldn't be something petty or insulting it would just be "wasted opportunities". If the show could get even a little bit of the sort of handling of alien societies that shows like B5 had it would just be so much better. There is so much material that just gets left on the table in terms of enriching the universe overall that it's really sad to see it passed over time and time again. Characters who try to talk about things of potential interest like Wraith reproduction or history of species X are cut off by some stupid "lol sex is gross" or "dur history is boring nerd" type remark before they can even say anything. You know, I'd actually like to hear that **** sometimes, thanks. This show was at one point about morethan blowing up aliens and finding wanktech to blow up even more aliens.

[garhkal]

Kinda reminds me of the dialog and justifications that were given in Michael. where they justified their abduction and torture of him on the grounds that they were "fixing" him from being an evil and unnatural species and he sould basically be greatful. When he didn't see it that way himself they told him there was another option, they'd just murder him instead.

The writing of course presents it so that the heroes seem to win the argument with reasoning like this, which is the most frustating part of all to have to sit through.

Humanity's finest indeed.

That is one of the reasons i cannot forgive them or give them any sorrows from all the heartache michael has caused.. he would not be that way if it was not for the team frukking him over so bad.

[ciannwn]

There's of course the curious idea that the Goa'uld would even need to steal the personalities of made up gods created from the humans back then, while imposing their own persons would be much more effective, simple and powerful.

TPTB were still stuck with certain things which were established in the original movie, though. A lot of details were altered to make the scenario suitable for a TV series but there was no way that they could change Ra being a Goa'uld even though they turned Goa'uld into wriggly parasites. I've been checking out a number of plot synopses for the original movie and impressions vary as to whether or not the alien was just pretending to be the Egyptain sun god.

I know wikepedia isn't 100% reliable but the list of Goa'uld characters shows that their names don't really match the idea of aliens with a common language providing 'deity names' for the primitive inhabitants of Earth. Some names are Egyptian, Ba'al is Semitic, Athena is Roman, Kali is a Hindu goddess, Morrigen is derived from Irish mythology, Zipacna is from Mayan mythology and Yu is Chinese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa%27u...rs_in_Stargate

The writers were just stuck with the annoying fact that humans invented thousands of different languages and came up with different names for their deities even though some of the gods and goddesses served a similar kind of function - eg. Earth Mother.

But this was done not to shock the people who hold money I suppose. From the moment you say, openly, that the gods back then were just BS and made up, and prevents you from saying the same for Allah, Christ, God, Buddha and the same lot.

I've come across discussions on the lines of 'could Jesus have been an Ancient who ascended?' so it's up to personal interpretation.

According to Von Daniken, the alien astronauts turned up everywhere too so there's still the question of why they ended up with names which weren't related linguistically. If they didn't adopt the names of local deities they had to be members of a number of different races and cultures.

In late Stargate's case, they do go both hand in hand.
No matter how Potter's universe feels just a mixed bag of all folklore and clichés you can find while browsing ancyclopedia mythica, I find the Potter films more enjoyable than any late Stargate, safe a few episodes here and there.

I think that the Harry Potter books are far better than the films. I don't class them as childish writing because there's a story arc spanning seven books and the plot is mind bogglingly complex. Characters die and the effects of losing friends or family members lasts for longer than five minutes. Voldemort isn't just a two dimensional villain put there for Harry to fight - he has a history and we learn what drove him to make the choices he did.

[Crazy Tom]

I think that the Harry Potter books are far better than the films. I don't class them as childish writing because there's a story arc spanning seven books and the plot is mind bogglingly complex. Characters die and the effects of losing friends or family members lasts for longer than five minutes. Voldemort isn't just a two dimensional villain put there for Harry to fight - he has a history and we learn what drove him to make the choices he did.

Ear Ear!