The Tau'ri and Genocide

[Myles]

Well, the Asgard were not willing to use genocidal means, even with the Goauld.

I wonder if we might be a little more willing to use those extreme measures now because we no longer have any of the elder races watching over our shoulder. The asgard are gone, the nox have vanished, and the tokra and JAffa are kind of fading out now.

When was Goauld genocide by the Asgard ever mentioned?

[Myles]

Sorry for double post, but I also think people are applying genocide to liberally. We are NOT committing genocide. We are in war - one where the enemy will not surrender. Genocide is the unmerciless killing of everyone in a group, whether they want to fight or not. We are fighting for our defense, not because we simply want a group or people of things removed from existence.

[Archaeis]

When was Goauld genocide by the Asgard ever mentioned?

I said that the Asgard weren't willing to use it as a method. I think that can be evidenced by the fact that they were still in power thousands of years after meeting the Asgard.

[Myles]

I said that the Asgard weren't willing to use it as a method. I think that can be evidenced by the fact that they were still in power thousands of years after meeting the Asgard.

True, but the Asgard weren't under threat of death, either. They knew they could utterly annihilate the Goauld and the Goauld weren't outright at war with them. Considering Atlantis has been under near constant attack, I would consider what we did to the Goauld in earlier in SG1 more genocide then what we did later in SG1 or Atlantis.

Early in SG1, after we were added to the protected planets treaty, we were picking off Goauld left and right knowing they would/could not attack us. We were not in direct war, and even though the Goauld would have enslaved us given the chance, they couldn't face the Asgard. Still though, we went out and continued to pretty much assassinate any Goauld Lord we could. I consider that to be much more like Genocide then the victory's over the Replicators in both galaxies or the destruction of the Ori. All three of which would not ever stop until we destroyed in anyway possible.

[Jeffala]

There are no Wraith or Asuran civilians. They are all combatants. They are all fair targets.

The same can't be said for everyone carrying a symbiote and this is the difference between them. Using the symbiote poison means killing innocent non-combatants (including children).

[eviladam]

There's also the small issue of every single member of the Asuran race wanting to kill us and every human they can get their hands on. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until we are dead.

I thought that was the Terminator? lol

[Opener]

Mebbe.

The Goa'uld weren't restricted from attacking us, they just couldn't attack our planet overtly. Thus they sent the asteroid. It hits France.

Also offworld teams were fair game, and it wouldn't surprise me to hear that a few of their missions ended up with them trying to evade capture by the Goa'uld so that they couldn't be given bomb teeth or be turned into zatarcs.

[Ouroboros]

In the past, the SGC has been against any kind of genocidal act when it comes to fighting their enemies. They wouldn't use the symbiote poison on the Goauld and are even reluctant to use the Wraith retrovirus as a weapon. So why are they all of a sudden into the who act of genocide with their enemies? They "presumably" wiped out the entire Ori race, they destroyed the replicators, and the asurans all without a single thought.

Thoughts on the change of heart? Is it just because these beings were not "like" us, as in organic and worldly beings? Or are just just becoming more willing to wipe out entire races?

It's down to the deterioration of the writing.

This is responsible both for how it can seem reasonable to genocide an entire race of "OMG vicious whatever" and for why the hero characters invoke it.

The first because the "evil villians" are never given any depth by the writing to show them as anything other than monsterous murderers of puppies and babies for fun. It's bull****, it's unrealistic and it's so horribly horribly cheap.

Secondly now that they've created these ridiculous over the top propagandised badguys who are nothing short of pure evil spawned by the asguard upgraded DNA of Satan the prince of darkness himself, they use the same sort of logic and excuses to justify genocide as any of history's genocidal monsters did. "They're our enemies/they're evil!"

Thanks to their stupidly biased one dimensional badguys the logic and justifications might seem to make more sense but make no mistake, they're the same logic and justifications, and therein lies your real evil.

Take the Wraith, which I think are far and away the most scathing example.

They've demonstrated time and time again that the individual members of their species are capable of honor, intelligence, wisdom, humour, even empathy for the human beings nature demands they must feed on to survive. Emotionally, intellectually and even genetically they are very similar to us. The plan for them is still genocide. This is a very small step away from genocide against human beings who for whatever ideological, political or religious reason will be very hard to live with.

It sends the message that if genocide is the easier path than a long hard drawn out strugle for some sort of amiable co-existence then genocide should be considered the better path and employed as soon as possible.

I do not agree with that position, especially not in light of the utter lack of any attempt by Earth in SGA to address the real reason why the Wraith are going to be hard to live with. It's not that they're pure evil it's that they thus far have only a single food source which happens to be human lives. Find or invent something else for them to eat and the problem goes away. We know for a fact that they even eat normal food for their entire early lives, they can turn them into humans and remove tatoos with a magic virus but they never bothered to even look into the option of turning back on their already existing digestive tract? They actually have asguard cloning technology now and they can't whip up some sort of non sentient meatbag Wraith can eat? They're not even willing to try? How many other ways might there be to approach this same problem? Not even going to investigate any of them?

It's like they want genocide to be their only option.

[from_orion]

didnt

Spoiler:

adria die? when the ancient attacked her

Actually,

Spoiler:

just like with Oma and Anubis they fight in a way that seems to be everlasting, so not dead, but can't do anything but fight the other. At least some of the ancients have the guts do do what was necessary.

[jnadreth]

Myrddin/Moros/Merlin(He's probably got a name for every occassion) Oma Dessalla, Morgan La Fay, Orlin the other Ancient featured early on in SGA all have guts-the rest are spineless wonders who don't take responsability for their actions,like with Oma they kept on punishing her when they could have reprimanded her for her actions but to solve the problem of Anubis

[BloomGate]

It's down to the deterioration of the writing.

This is responsible both for how it can seem reasonable to genocide an entire race of "OMG vicious whatever" and for why the hero characters invoke it.

The first because the "evil villians" are never given any depth by the writing to show them as anything other than monsterous murderers of puppies and babies for fun. It's bull****, it's unrealistic and it's so horribly horribly cheap.

Secondly now that they've created these ridiculous over the top propagandised badguys who are nothing short of pure evil spawned by the asguard upgraded DNA of Satan the prince of darkness himself, they use the same sort of logic and excuses to justify genocide as any of history's genocidal monsters did. "They're our enemies/they're evil!"

Thanks to their stupidly biased one dimensional badguys the logic and justifications might seem to make more sense but make no mistake, they're the same logic and justifications, and therein lies your real evil.

Take the Wraith, which I think are far and away the most scathing example.

They've demonstrated time and time again that the individual members of their species are capable of honor, intelligence, wisdom, humour, even empathy for the human beings nature demands they must feed on to survive. Emotionally, intellectually and even genetically they are very similar to us. The plan for them is still genocide. This is a very small step away from genocide against human beings who for whatever ideological, political or religious reason will be very hard to live with.

It sends the message that if genocide is the easier path than a long hard drawn out strugle for some sort of amiable co-existence then genocide should be considered the better path and employed as soon as possible.

I do not agree with that position, especially not in light of the utter lack of any attempt by Earth in SGA to address the real reason why the Wraith are going to be hard to live with. It's not that they're pure evil it's that they thus far have only a single food source which happens to be human lives. Find or invent something else for them to eat and the problem goes away. We know for a fact that they even eat normal food for their entire early lives, they can turn them into humans and remove tatoos with a magic virus but they never bothered to even look into the option of turning back on their already existing digestive tract? They actually have asguard cloning technology now and they can't whip up some sort of non sentient meatbag Wraith can eat? They're not even willing to try? How many other ways might there be to approach this same problem? Not even going to investigate any of them?

It's like they want genocide to be their only option.

LMAO!

Nice diatribe. Completely off point, but nice nonetheless.

Simple question: What non-combatants have they attacked at any point? The only way the word genocide can ever be properly applied is if non-combatants are killed in an attempt to exterminate a race. Since they have not attacked ANY civilian population, you can't use the word genocide - well not correctly anyway.

On an aside, it sounds like you're critiquing a book and not a TV show. You can't always write a show as detailed as it sounds like you would like it to be.

[jnadreth]

Icompletely agree with what Ouroboros is saying as the only enemy that are as evil as they are said to be are the replicators as they wanted to wipe out humans so that the wraith had nothing to feed on. The Wraith, I would at least consider helping them to overcome the whole feeding on humans thing-hell why did'nt the ancients try it-or were they to busy thinking about their own ascention????-why all the genicide only the replicators are anywhere near to what the borg have done as they both have threatoned entire galaxys existance

[ijffdrie]

we should just create those fireflies with the high lifesigns and feedability

[jnadreth]

Most people think they should eat those bigger glowing flying things that come out of ancient warships

[ijffdrie]

i ment those fireflies near the crashed wraith transport ship, that wraith appeared to enjoy feeding on them