BC-304 vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

[Mister Oragahn]

No matter the sources you use for Star Wars, films only or the whole EU, that doesn't make a single difference once you've chose the kind of data you acknowledge from Stargate.

Simply put, it all boils down to the ZPM.

If the Odyssey's asgard shields and weapons can tap into a ZPM at even a minuscule fraction of how fast Atlantis could (2% per second), say e-12, it would still have access to a tremendous level of power.

Let's see. There are various ways of estimating the amount of energy a ZPM holds.

If we consider the idea that an exploding ZPM half full, releasing all of its energy, is able to destroy our solar system, with a non-star centric explosion, we're talking about a power source that holds the equivalent of, at least, two supernovae.

Therefore, a ZPM should contain, at the very least, twice 10e44 joules of energy.
You can't even start to imagine the scope of that amount of energy, even used at 0.0000000001%.

It's true that most fans immediately assume that the Daedalus and Odyssey could use the ZPMs at their full power.
Fact is, those ships are mostly human made, and use materials and techniques that would be considered advanced by now, but largely inferior to alteran tech.
There's just no way ours 304 could use ZPMs in such a way as Atlantis could.

However, this was before the events of Unending.
We know, that from this date, an upgraded Odyssey could deplete a ZPM within 50 years.

Assuming the ZPM was near full (that it was recently assembled by the replicators), that's still a power of 1.2675235125611580094810758739575 e35 W, with a draining percentage of 6.3376175628057900474053793697873 e-8 %.

Basically, the minimal amount of energy necessary to overcome Earth's gravitational binding energy is around 2~3 e32 joules.

Imagine, just for once, that the Odyssey can direct even only 1% of the power, which it gets from a ZPM, to energy guns. It still gives the ship the ability to obliterate Earth to bits many times.

Figures would become largely less huge if you suddenly considered that a 50% full ZPM could only destroy a planet, if exploding, yet they would remain insanely impressive.

For example, assuming a minimal amount of energy around 2.2e32 joules, the Odyssey would have been able to tap into the ZPM at a rate of 139,427,586,381,727,381,042,918.34613531 watts, or 139.4 zettawatts.

Even 1% of this power directed to beam weapons is more than enough to engage the whole imperial fleet if necessary, plus any other ship and planetary defenses of Star Wars's galaxy as far as we've seen.

These amounts of energy can appear to be insane, but it's all relative, especially once you consider that in theory, one cube meter of a ZP field would contain 10e92 joules.
So the amount of a ZPM able to erase a stellar system from the map would only a negligible portion of this, and if we're talking about smaller figures, like simple planetary obliteration, it's not even worth the notice.

That said, 139.4 zettawatts is a reliable figure to play with. That would be around 33.324 petatons per second, as the quantity of energy the Odyssey takes from the ZPM per second.
Enough to sneeze at a star destroyer and ravage the entire surface of a world in the same shot, leaving a big outrageous crater.

[fugiman]

No matter the sources you use for Star Wars, films only or the whole EU, that doesn't make a single difference once you've chose the kind of data you acknowledge from Stargate.

Simply put, it all boils down to the ZPM.

If the Odyssey's asgard shields and weapons can tap into a ZPM at even a minuscule fraction of how fast Atlantis could (2% per second), say e-12, it would still have access to a tremendous level of power.

Let's see. There are various ways of estimating the amount of energy a ZPM holds.

If we consider the idea that an exploding ZPM half full, releasing all of its energy, is able to destroy our solar system, with a non-star centric explosion, we're talking about a power source that holds the equivalent of, at least, two supernovae.

Therefore, a ZPM should contain, at the very least, twice 10e44 joules of energy.
You can't even start to imagine the scope of that amount of energy, even used at 0.0000000001%.

It's true that most fans immediately assume that the Daedalus and Odyssey could use the ZPMs at their full power.
Fact is, those ships are mostly human made, and use materials and techniques that would be considered advanced by now, but largely inferior to alteran tech.
There's just no way ours 304 could use ZPMs in such a way as Atlantis could.

However, this was before the events of Unending.
We know, that from this date, an upgraded Odyssey could deplete a ZPM within 50 years.

Assuming the ZPM was near full (that it was recently assembled by the replicators), that's still a power of 1.2675235125611580094810758739575 e35 W, with a draining percentage of 6.3376175628057900474053793697873 e-8 %.

Basically, the minimal amount of energy necessary to overcome Earth's gravitational binding energy is around 2~3 e32 joules.

Imagine, just for once, that the Odyssey can direct even only 1% of the power, which it gets from a ZPM, to energy guns. It still gives the ship the ability to obliterate Earth to bits many times.

Figures would become largely less huge if you suddenly considered that a 50% full ZPM could only destroy a planet, if exploding, yet they would remain insanely impressive.

For example, assuming a minimal amount of energy around 2.2e32 joules, the Odyssey would have been able to tap into the ZPM at a rate of 139,427,586,381,727,381,042,918.34613531 watts, or 139.4 zettawatts.

Even 1% of this power directed to beam weapons is more than enough to engage the whole imperial fleet if necessary, plus any other ship and planetary defenses of Star Wars's galaxy as far as we've seen.

These amounts of energy can appear to be insane, but it's all relative, especially once you consider that in theory, one cube meter of a ZP field would contain 10e92 joules.
So the amount of a ZPM able to erase a stellar system from the map would only a negligible portion of this, and if we're talking about smaller figures, like simple planetary obliteration, it's not even worth the notice.

That said, 139.4 zettawatts is a reliable figure to play with. That would be around 33.324 petatons per second, as the quantity of energy the Odyssey takes from the ZPM per second.
Enough to sneeze at a star destroyer and ravage the entire surface of a world in the same shot, leaving a big outrageous crater.

Either you are really smart or you just made up a bunch of numbers

[MechaThor]

-ascended beings are MUCH MUCH more powerful than Jedi. this battle would be in a neutral zone. So no anchients to stop daniel from doing it.

YES BUT! Did you not watch Return of the Jedi?
Jedi can accend aswell making them ten times as powerful there4
Accended ancient vs accended Jedi the Jedi would win.

Anyways what dose this have to do with the Odyssey vs Star Destroyer?


back on topic...
the Star Destroyer has Lord Vader and his the man!
There4 they will win or Vadar will get made and use his extreme "NNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOO" Attack killing everyone on the Odyssey by crushing the'r bones like twigs under a dinosaurs foot.

[Mister Oragahn]

Either you are really smart or you just made up a bunch of numbers

None.
I just took a bunch of numbers corresponding to events and estimations described in Stargate, and used them accordingly.

It's just that certain people don't realize what it really means to use a ZPM.
At this point, it doesn't matter if an ISD is many times bigger than a 304, that it has a thousand cannons or whatever.

It's just simply outclassed, like an insect trying to dent a super armoured battleship.

Look, with the high end figure (double supernova potential), the 304 could literally deflect several Death Star beams, considering the power ratios and the amount of energy contained in the ZPM, in this case.

Mind you, it's conservative to base calculations on the idea that a 50% full ZPM can only destroy a planet, mainly because thus far, there's been no secondary backup to Carter's claims that a ZPM could hold enough energy to destroy twice our solar system, from a off-center explosion.

That said, according to the theorized energy concentration potential mentionned above, the 2 supernovae level ZPM is nothing absurd, and would even look extremely conservative!

Still, even for lower figures, you can always look at Echoes, where the Daedalus used one to deflect a CME dwarfing anything our sun could output, and estimated to be able to cause mass extinction over a whole planet, and yet no ZPM drain has ever been worth the report, largely suggesting that the power tax on the ZPM was utterly negligible.

[Salaam86]

oh bull. I think he made it up.

he talks about the ZPM's, but I've never seen it being harnessed with anywhere near the power levels he's talking about.

[Salaam86]

Safe that the Death Star's beam doesn't behave like a laser at all.

doesn't really matter.

Theres three beams that join up to form the main beam. Obviously not laser like...light wouldn't reflect like that. However I assume that with their technology levels they could have some sort of space distortion device or who knows what else.

either way the beam doesnt behave like a laser, it's still evaluated as being a laser.

[Mister Oragahn]

doesn't really matter.

Theres three beams that join up to form the main beam. Obviously not laser like...light wouldn't reflect like that. However I assume that with their technology levels they could have some sort of space distortion device or who knows what else.

either way the beam doesnt behave like a laser, it's still evaluated as being a laser.

Its effects are hardly totally laser light either. Please read this. You're not expected to buy the theories presented on that site, but at least acknowledge the phenomenoms.

oh bull. I think he made it up.

he talks about the ZPM's, but I've never seen it being harnessed with anywhere near the power levels he's talking about.

Zero Hour:

LEE
Well, we managed to scrape some microscopic fragments from the casing and run some tests and uh…You're going to want these.

[He hands two pairs of goggles to O'Neill who passes one over to Gilmor. Lee puts his goggles on then asks a lab technician to leave. Lee closes the lenses down. He moves over to a bank of computers. A metal tray is sitting on a steel table.]

LEE
This is what happens when you introduce a constant electric charge.

[O'Neill closes the lenses down on his goggles. As Lee flicks a switch on the computer, the tray explodes. Lee and O'Neill raise the lenses on their goggles, while Gilmor takes his goggles off and looks in amazement at the tray.]

O'NEILL
The ZPM is booby trapped?

[Lee nods.]

LEE
(shocked)
We were going to send it to Antarctica. Can you imagine if someone had taken it and plugged it into the chair in the Ancient Outpost? I can't even imagine the magnitude of the explosion. A charged ZPM detonating that? I don't know, I mean, it could have destroyed the whole planet.

CARTER
Um…Sir, quickly. I…I wanted to talk to you about something else. I was reading Doctor Lee's report about the tainted ZPM? I think he may have underestimated the explosive potential. It could have actually destroyed the entire solar system.

O'NEILL
What's the difference?

CARTER
Well, my point is, if we figured it out so could Ba'al. He could use it as a weapon against us.

Critical Mass:

McKAY: The problem is, our Trust operative figured out a way to rewrite Atlantis' operating system and disable the failsafes, but mask it in such a way that the city sensors didn't detect it.

WEIR: So the dialling of Earth would cause the ZeePM to overload.

McKAY: Oh, yeah! And given that dialling another galaxy requires tremendous amounts of power, we're talking catastrophic overload. I mean, the explosion would destroy not just the city, but, uh, most likely the entire planet.

So what I think is bull is how you handily deny and ignore a couple of facts and elements I presented, and how you satisfy yourself with nothing.

Now there's some refinement to do regarding the Odyssey's systems.

For example, there's that inconsistency in how a couple of Ori shots can still effectively drain the shields, and how within 50 years, the time dilation device can dry a ZPM.

All evidence points to the idea that the ZPM is not tied to the shields, and what let the Odyssey resist so well against Ori weapons is solely because of the asgard power core. Eventually, that same core provides energy to weapons and other things.

The ZPM is not tied to those. The Daedalus could, but mysteriously, the ZPM doesn't seem to be jury rigged to those systems in the Odyssey. How a convenience, while it seemed to be an easy thing to do previously!

Seriously, the fact that they didn't even think about doing this, while in hyperspace, by the second time they were attacked and feld away again, just to make their shields turn galacticly uber, is just absurd.
Or what? The Asgards made so many modifications that the humans can't even control their ship anymore, that they can't even understand how to plug a ZPM into a power grid like they so easily did previously with the same model of ships. Nevermind if Carter could actually mess around with advanced systems, like time dilation and else, but, again, couldn't tie a ZPM to the energy conduits.



Nevermind, this ****ty episode is a vast plain full of gapping plot holes. All that time they spent in that time dilation bubble, even a couple of hours or days would have been enough to recharge the shields and largely deal with the slowed down beam. See, if the beam was slowed down, it means it was not subject to the same spacetime than the Odyssey was. Ergo, the Odyssey could be moved around the beam, just as much as it could be recharged.

We've even seen the Prometheus have her shields turned to a sort of hull hugging mode, instead of a bubble, in Prometheus Unbound. So it's reasonnable to think this could be done for a 304, and as such, the shields could have been placed in between the hull and the beam.
But again, what a pain of a procedure since it was easier to circle around that beam since it was moving so slowly.

Now you can do all you want, but if you want to think that a Star Destroyer can take on the Odyssey, you should first think about hard numbers to compare. For example, unupgraded 304 have shields that can take on several wraith shots (the same guys who kicked the Lantians).
Many references, pieces of information and calculations from the films and the EU, show that ISDs have a firepower in the megaton level, and eventually, if we're extremely generous, starting to walk in the very low gigaton range, but barely.

Even Ha'taks, which have now been totally ridiculized, have levels of firepower that easily sit in the high tops of such ranges, and could actually reach much higher levels.

We're talking about the same ha'taks that were destroyed in one shot by ori weapons while it took three shots from the same weapons to destroy base 304 models.

So even a normal 304 could go up against an ISD and handle its firepower with enough confort. If the 304 had gigaton level missiles, it could even engage the ISD and destroy it.

Put it simply, the ISD is totally owned in all domains. Shields, weaponry, manoeuverability.

[Hypochondriac]

That ZPM you sited was tampered with. Does a regular ZPM have the same destructive force?

[Buba uognarf]

That ZPM you sited was tampered with. Does a regular ZPM have the same destructive force?

It's absurd to think whatever method camulas used to taint the Z.P.M could magnify the explosive potential by sooooo many orders of magnitude! If he had such an explosive substance then he would have easily conquered the entire galaxy no race we've seen bar ancients etc.. have the power to wipe out solar systems...

[Lord of Nightmares]

Quite honestly, if a ZPM's capable of powering-up the Odyssey (or any other vessel for that matter) by such a ridiculous magnitude, then the war against the Ori's followers could've ended within a couple of episodes.

[Buba uognarf]

Quite honestly, if a ZPM's capable of powering-up the Odyssey (or any other vessel for that matter) by such a ridiculous magnitude, then the war against the Ori's followers could've ended within a couple of episodes.

you need to remember that the Z.P.M can only power the tech to it's full potential not exceed it. Asgard shields etc are unable to use the full potential of a Z.P.M that's why we can't beat the Ori in a couple of episodes...

The only ship seen to use Z.P.M's to their full potential is Atlantis

[Lord of Nightmares]

you need to remember that the Z.P.M can only power the tech to it's full potential not exceed it. Asgard shields etc are unable to use the full potential of a Z.P.M that's why we can't beat the Ori in a couple of episodes...

The only ship seen to use Z.P.M's to their full potential is Atlantis

That's what I was thinking as well.

I was however referring to Oragahn's suggestion that the Odyssey even tapping into the tiniest fraction of the ZPM's power would be able to engage the entire Imperial fleet without much fuss. If so, it'd be capable of blowing up entire star systems at the very least.

[Buba uognarf]

That's what I was thinking as well.

I was however referring to Oragahn's suggestion that the Odyssey even tapping into the tiniest fraction of the ZPM's power would be able to engage the entire Imperial fleet without much fuss. If so, it'd be capable of blowing up entire star systems at the very least.

oh right, misunderstanding...Yeah well it's my view that our technology (and asgard for the most part) is too primative to use the Z.P.M's power to any serious extent it can power the tech to it's full potential but no more...bit of a waste really

[Mister Oragahn]

It's absurd to think whatever method camulas used to taint the Z.P.M could magnify the explosive potential by sooooo many orders of magnitude! If he had such an explosive substance then he would have easily conquered the entire galaxy no race we've seen bar ancients etc.. have the power to wipe out solar systems...

Exactly. That "tampered with substances" argument is getting so old it would be worth a sticky thread on its own, seriously.

[Mister Oragahn]

Quite honestly, if a ZPM's capable of powering-up the Odyssey (or any other vessel for that matter) by such a ridiculous magnitude, then the war against the Ori's followers could've ended within a couple of episodes.

It's doesn't matter if your dam can pour billions of litres of water, if your river bed can only accept a flux of ten litres, before it "overloads".

It's like tying a lamp to a fictional fusion power core. Your lamp can't use more than 60 watts, yet your power core is capable of delivering powers dwarfing stellar outputs.

Asgard tech is, for all intents and purposes, superior to human tech in that their power conduits can handle more energy from the ZPM than our ships... even if the event in Echoes is very honorable.

However, Atlantis has power conduits able to withstand, at the very least, transfers of energy up to 2% of a ZPM per second.

It's literally insane. Don't even ask how they keep that energy channeled. It may be routed along subspace conduits running all along the city for all I care.