BC-304 vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

[Mister Oragahn]

I like how everyone here argues about fictional ships then call other people stupid when they cant prove anything.

Any names in mind?

Theres never been a ship in space with weapons so I highly doubt anything can have a piece of fact about space explosions and power.

That's highly absurd. It's not because an element is fictional that its very existence isn't the fruit of a mesh of facts, be they in universe or not.

Oh Asgards don't exist, so it's not a fact that they're grey and that they have a certain body mass.
Death Gliders don't exist so they don't have weapons with a gaugable firepower, and there's no fact such as those ships have a canopy.
You know, it's just a show, so there's no fact.

Ah, a gigaton enhanced nukes produces a fireball with a radius of x kilometers. Oh but it's fictional, so you can't say gauge the energy in play there.

On and on and on.

What I find most amusing is that those comments always come from people actually wandering around in forums such as this one. You must appreciate the irony of the situation. Do they even understand the point of such a forum or what?

[ManiacMike]

ball hair.

first word that came to my head.

dunno where it came from, but there you go.

[Jimbo-DR]

ball hair.

first word that came to my head.

dunno where it came from, but there you go.

12 year old. First thought into my head.

[Col. Shadow Quinn]

sd's are crap they couldnt do anything in any of the movies all that stuff from the sw books is just to glorify them

The books were written by deranged fans who wanted to make all SW technology infinitely powerful.

[Peoples_General]

Since the Warsies have like to thump books that glorifies the ISDs....

Let us Gateheads make our own StarGate books about how Ori ship's beams have 1 Petatonnes (of tnt) of firepower. LOL!

kilo = 1,000
giga = 1,000,000
mega = 1,000,000,000
tera = 1,000,000,000,000
peta = 1,000,000,000,000,000

[turbo1889]

. . . Theres never been a ship in space with weapons so I highly doubt anything can have a piece of fact about space explosions and power.

Okay, first off the Russians did launch a manned space craft into earth orbit which was armed -- thing was designed to be used to destroy hardened military satalights during a WWIII which so far hasn't happened. The thing only made one test flight but it was manned, it was in space, and it was armed.

Secondly, just because earth has not officially put a big bad ass warship into space doesn't mean it hasn't happened (Would they really tell us?).

Third, if earth hasn't done it don't mean some other planet hasn't.

[HAL]

arent there unmanned anti sattalite weapans to ?

[Dutch_Razor]

arent there unmanned anti sattalite weapans to ?

Sssssssssst....

I still haven't heard anyone counter my scientifically correect arguements

[BlankDots]

Mister Oraghan

" "miniature sun" and rely on "solar ionization". Those exact same elements which completely contradict Saxton's claims about hypermatter anihilation he uses to support the yields he's been claiming.
A good job shooting one's own foot!
Yes, because matter anihilation and fusion are literally apples and oranges. "

Ok well lets reach a consensus. Hypermatter annihilation in the reactor size of ISD would provide so much energy its inconsistent. IN turn, Fusion reactors provide too little energy to be useful on an ISD.


Mister Oraghan. You said that you were willing to accept that the ISD's guns were on the low gigaton range. If they have 100 Turbolasers, this means 100-500 gigaton per salvo. Also we have no idea the effect of ion cannons on Daedy. For all we know, it could knock out all electronics.

Even if what you meant by ISD's guns being in the low gigaton range was that ALL of its 100 turbolasers combined were low gigaton. Think about how fast they shoot. Thats a a few dozen gigatons per minute.

Now compare this to daedy's arsenal, and you'll see its significantly better.


As you put it

" The Daedalus has a few nukes?
The last time they had only type of nukes onboard, for unknown reasons that is, they still managed to launch a hell of a number of them!
Now we've seen that they can have mark 3s, mark 8s, sometimes 26 MT nukes, eventually carry one gatebuster for good measure, and may even have a small stock of gigaton ones, considering how it's utterly easy to have any."

A gatebuster is what 800 gigaton.

I however fail to really understand this. This is perhaps the most gaping hole in stargate arsenal explanations.

Carter says its 'multi gigaton' and it has a blast radius of 100km. Which using calculator would tell u it lies approximately in the 800 gigaton range. Wouldn't carter be saying its a 1 terraton nuke.

The use of this is absolutely limited. Why?

Otherwise they'd be using it En masse in atlantis on unshielded hives.

In fact the daedy rarely uses nukes in engagements.

Why do i say this?

Well the fact is if u watch the engagements u'll see what i mean. A hat'ak is what 600-1000 metres wide. This is the general consensus. If they used nukes. A 26 megaton nuke would have a blast radius that would EASILY surround the hive.

In fact the 13 kiloton nuke used in hiroshima has a blast radius bigger than this. Its complete destruction radius is 1.6km. That easily encompasses the entire hat'ak even if it doesn't detonate in the middle of the ha'tak. Reminder thatn the blast is spherical in space.

What does this mean?

A gatebuster beamed next to a hive fleet would wipe all the hives out. Its blast radius is 100km.

The temperature of millions of kelvins would vaporize any material known to the wraith.

How do i know this?

Remember the aurora class ship next to the volcano. The eruption would've destroyed the aurora. Whereas the eruption would've spewed out lava (several thousand degrees) at high velocities. A nuke will spew out a massive fireball at millions of degrees at extreme velocities.


Stargate is inconsistent with its data. I don't see hat'aks getting encompassed when they are hit with nukes. Neither do i see wraith ships getting owned in space by gatebusters.


In fact if naquadriah/naquadah was so plentiful the wraith wouldn't even be a threat. A gatebuster beamed next to a wriath ship. One hit KO.

In a week all the wraith hives would be dead. End of atlanits. The only reason why this hasn't happened is that naquadriah/naquadah is too rare to make a factory that churns out gatebusters in their dozens.


Compare this to an ISD which has clear references of being able to destroy cities if not planets. Even if it can't do a BDZ to 1 metre deep by itself, at least there is general consensus that it can cause serious damage to a city.


I think Daedy's missiles are a joke. They're probably extra long range missiles armed with TNT.

[fugiman]

Mister Oraghan

" "miniature sun" and rely on "solar ionization". Those exact same elements which completely contradict Saxton's claims about hypermatter anihilation he uses to support the yields he's been claiming.
A good job shooting one's own foot!
Yes, because matter anihilation and fusion are literally apples and oranges. "

Ok well lets reach a consensus. Hypermatter annihilation in the reactor size of ISD would provide so much energy its inconsistent. IN turn, Fusion reactors provide too little energy to be useful on an ISD.


Mister Oraghan. You said that you were willing to accept that the ISD's guns were on the low gigaton range. If they have 100 Turbolasers, this means 100-500 gigaton per salvo. Also we have no idea the effect of ion cannons on Daedy. For all we know, it could knock out all electronics.

Even if what you meant by ISD's guns being in the low gigaton range was that ALL of its 100 turbolasers combined were low gigaton. Think about how fast they shoot. Thats a a few dozen gigatons per minute.

Now compare this to daedy's arsenal, and you'll see its significantly better.


As you put it

" The Daedalus has a few nukes?
The last time they had only type of nukes onboard, for unknown reasons that is, they still managed to launch a hell of a number of them!
Now we've seen that they can have mark 3s, mark 8s, sometimes 26 MT nukes, eventually carry one gatebuster for good measure, and may even have a small stock of gigaton ones, considering how it's utterly easy to have any."

A gatebuster is what 800 gigaton.

I however fail to really understand this. This is perhaps the most gaping hole in stargate arsenal explanations.

Carter says its 'multi gigaton' and it has a blast radius of 100km. Which using calculator would tell u it lies approximately in the 800 gigaton range. Wouldn't carter be saying its a 1 terraton nuke.

The use of this is absolutely limited. Why?

Otherwise they'd be using it En masse in atlantis on unshielded hives.

In fact the daedy rarely uses nukes in engagements.

Why do i say this?

Well the fact is if u watch the engagements u'll see what i mean. A hat'ak is what 600-1000 metres wide. This is the general consensus. If they used nukes. A 26 megaton nuke would have a blast radius that would EASILY surround the hive.

In fact the 13 kiloton nuke used in hiroshima has a blast radius bigger than this. Its complete destruction radius is 1.6km. That easily encompasses the entire hat'ak even if it doesn't detonate in the middle of the ha'tak. Reminder thatn the blast is spherical in space.

What does this mean?

A gatebuster beamed next to a hive fleet would wipe all the hives out. Its blast radius is 100km.

The temperature of millions of kelvins would vaporize any material known to the wraith.

How do i know this?

Remember the aurora class ship next to the volcano. The eruption would've destroyed the aurora. Whereas the eruption would've spewed out lava (several thousand degrees) at high velocities. A nuke will spew out a massive fireball at millions of degrees at extreme velocities.


Stargate is inconsistent with its data. I don't see hat'aks getting encompassed when they are hit with nukes. Neither do i see wraith ships getting owned in space by gatebusters.


In fact if naquadriah/naquadah was so plentiful the wraith wouldn't even be a threat. A gatebuster beamed next to a wriath ship. One hit KO.

In a week all the wraith hives would be dead. End of atlanits. The only reason why this hasn't happened is that naquadriah/naquadah is too rare to make a factory that churns out gatebusters in their dozens.


Compare this to an ISD which has clear references of being able to destroy cities if not planets. Even if it can't do a BDZ to 1 metre deep by itself, at least there is general consensus that it can cause serious damage to a city.


I think Daedy's missiles are a joke. They're probably extra long range missiles armed with TNT.

Damn Straight, Green for you

[Mister Oragahn]

Ok well lets reach a consensus. Hypermatter annihilation in the reactor size of ISD would provide so much energy its inconsistent. IN turn, Fusion reactors provide too little energy to be useful on an ISD.

All depends of the levels of energy you actually expect. If you're still dreaming those multi gigatons shots, which are barely supported, then sure, fusion could be short. That said, it's precisely because of that that Saxton came with the saxtonite.
Wait. Hypermatter I mean.
So what do you say?

Mister Oraghan. You said that you were willing to accept that the ISD's guns were on the low gigaton range. If they have 100 Turbolasers, this means 100-500 gigaton per salvo. Also we have no idea the effect of ion cannons on Daedy. For all we know, it could knock out all electronics.

Even if what you meant by ISD's guns being in the low gigaton range was that ALL of its 100 turbolasers combined were low gigaton. Think about how fast they shoot. Thats a a few dozen gigatons per minute.

This was only for the heavy turbolasers. Based on the movies, there aren't many of them on an ISD. Medium and light Tls, if such a diversification even exists to boot, could be more numerous.
My point was that at beast, I could eventually accept that, provided with solid evidence, ISDs can have their heavier TLs fire low gigatons.
The lighter cannons, as far as I'm concerned, have only displayed, at best, yields in the very low megatons to hundreds of kilotons (asteroid "vaporization" in TESB).
Globally, turbolasers from the ROTS era are said to be able to vaporize a small town. Even if we take the word vaporize by the letter, it's not going to provide you such a big yield. You wouldn't even put a foot in the gigaton range, by a far distance.

Now compare this to daedy's arsenal, and you'll see its significantly better.

All depends what guns you're talking about.
When I leave those "1,000 gunz" inventions from the EU aside, and focus on the evidence seen from the movies, like ROTS for example, those Venators end with a few turbolasers at the base of the bridge tower, and several sort of mass drivers located in the trenches on both sides... weapons not impressive at all mind you, looking at the sub kilton (even sub TNT) explosinos they produce.

As you put it

" The Daedalus has a few nukes?
The last time they had only type of nukes onboard, for unknown reasons that is, they still managed to launch a hell of a number of them!
Now we've seen that they can have mark 3s, mark 8s, sometimes 26 MT nukes, eventually carry one gatebuster for good measure, and may even have a small stock of gigaton ones, considering how it's utterly easy to have any."

A gatebuster is what 800 gigaton.

More 812 GT.

I however fail to really understand this. This is perhaps the most gaping hole in stargate arsenal explanations.

Carter says its 'multi gigaton' and it has a blast radius of 100km. Which using calculator would tell u it lies approximately in the 800 gigaton range. Wouldn't carter be saying its a 1 terraton nuke.

Not necessarily. For example, back in season 6, a gigaton warhead was described as being a thousand megatons.
Simply because in nuclear lingo, kiloton and megatons are the yields which we can produce. Gigaton is fiction.

Now, years later, thanks to the miracle of naqahdah, and even more, naqahdria, gigaton level warheads are easy to produce.
Back in Failsafe (Stargate SG-1, season 5), way before they started their spaceship program and intensive militarization, Carder said they already had enough high yield warheads to deflect the asteroid. Carter said that the warhead they were going to use packed "twelve hundred enhanced megatonnes."
In Redemption Part II, Carter describes a 2 ~ 3 gigaton yield as a 2,000 ~ 3,000 megaton yield.
In Siege Part II (Stargate Atlantis season 1), Everett described the 1.2 GT mines as "six naquadah-enhanced nuclear warheads, twelve hundred megatons a piece."

Now, in season 9, the access to naqahdah has made gigaton level warheads a damn strong reality, and for even higher yields, using gigatons helps, because high grade army guys in the Stargate universe know, and actually have to know, that it's above megatons.
If gigaton yields were a reality in our reality, it would take a few years before the military would think in terms of gigatons, and not megatons only.

The use of this is absolutely limited. Why?

Answers are in the show, really.

Otherwise they'd be using it En masse in atlantis on unshielded hives.

Gatebusters are still a luxury, and not absolutely necessary against hiveships. They'd just put them out of their misery just faster. But take a look below:

In fact the daedy rarely uses nukes in engagements.

Have you been watching Atlantis?
Everett came with what they had best for that occasion to defend Atlantis. What did they bring? 1.2 GT mines. However, there's no proof that would have been enough. They knew nothing about the military capabilities of wraith capital ships. It was just a guess they took.
Above all, you forgot that the very first time Caldwell engaged hiveships, he fired mark 8s, but they were intercepted by darts.
That's why they kept busting hiveships by beaming nuclear warheads inside those ships... until they were jammed.
Later on, in No Man's Land, Caldwell has the Daedalus fire a legion of mark 3s. An ugly amount of them are intercepted, again, by darts, but between 1 and 3 of them manage to get through and hit a hiveship's stern.

They fire their railguns because most of the time, they have nothing better to fire, even if they're relatively pointless here, safe to destroy darts and, with luck, induce side collateral damaged and chain reactions.
They could also hit sensible parts, like hyperdrives. For the rest, if those railguns are of the same stuff as the ones brought to Atlantis, it'd take like 10,000 rounds each to actually start to yield the equivalent of 1 kt of kinetic energy.

It's just absurdingly clear that if they had a better system of delivery for the nukes, or if they could shield them, they'd use them. It's also why sending F-302s equipped with missiles is a good idea sometimes, as they can pass through the swarms of darts, eventually shoot many of them down, to clear a passage for the nukes.

Why do i say this?

Well the fact is if u watch the engagements u'll see what i mean. A hat'ak is what 600-1000 metres wide. This is the general consensus. If they used nukes. A 26 megaton nuke would have a blast radius that would EASILY surround the hive.

In fact the 13 kiloton nuke used in hiroshima has a blast radius bigger than this. Its complete destruction radius is 1.6km. That easily encompasses the entire hat'ak even if it doesn't detonate in the middle of the ha'tak. Reminder thatn the blast is spherical in space.

There would be no blast radius to talk about in space.
All the direct damage you can expect is from direct intense radiation. Safe for the nuke's own casing propelled very fast, very far, and hazardous debris that would manage not to be melted not vaporized, there's no kinetic effect to expect from a nuke in space.

What does this mean?

A gatebuster beamed next to a hive fleet would wipe all the hives out. Its blast radius is 100km.

The temperature of millions of kelvins would vaporize any material known to the wraith.

That's a funny claim. At a range of 100,000 meters, the residual intensity due to such an explosion will only have an intensity of 6.41 tons of TNT per 1 unit of surface (m²). Not megatons. Not even kilotons. Paint me unimpressed.
As for the jamming, I think fans have already reached the consensus that the jamming extends far beyond the hull of a hiveship.

Remember the aurora class ship next to the volcano. The eruption would've destroyed the aurora. Whereas the eruption would've spewed out lava (several thousand degrees) at high velocities. A nuke will spew out a massive fireball at millions of degrees at extreme velocities.

The Aurora wasn't finished. It still was under repair, or whatever put it her back to rest in that dock.
The explosion of the volcano itself was a teraton affair. Not focused on the ship, sure, so you'd have to think about it, but if the ship had remained inside the volcano, it's the whole explosion that would have seriously screwed up everyone.

Even the best armour in the world can't protect you if it has cracks.

In fact if naquadriah/naquadah was so plentiful the wraith wouldn't even be a threat. A gatebuster beamed next to a wriath ship. One hit KO.

Naqahdria isn't plentiful, and nukes aren't beamed because of jamming.

Compare this to an ISD which has clear references of being able to destroy cities if not planets. Even if it can't do a BDZ to 1 metre deep by itself, at least there is general consensus that it can cause serious damage to a city.

Of course there's such a consensus, but do you know how much you need to destroy a city? It's ridiculously low, especially in comparison to those gigaton/teraton yields coming out of certain ******s' hats.

I think Daedy's missiles are a joke. They're probably extra long range missiles armed with TNT.

I think that even nukes between 2 and 26 megatons each is not a joke, especially when it dwarves the SW yields issued from many descriptions provided by canon and EU sourcse.
I think missiles which can at least cause the level of damage seen in Family Ties isn't a joke.
I think a world that can easily come with gigaton level warheads since the end of season 1 isn't a joke.
I think that missiles of the size of a sidewinder and packing, at the very least, a happy lovable yield of 812 GT each is certainly not a joke.

Now you may believe what you want, and get green from some people who can't be bothered to read a word from what I wrote above, and unable to get past their own unsupported beliefs as long they get a friend list long like the Styx, but I stick with the show.
It's in fact remarkable how many Stargate fans lowball their universe so much because of ignorance, when you just have to kneel to pick up the evidence you need.

There's also the fact that some people simply can't imagine that level of power, nevermind we're talking about science fiction.

[Dutch_Razor]

I think those missiles are a joke since an ISD has a CIWS..

[Mister Oragahn]

I think those missiles are a joke since an ISD has a CIWS..

What's the evidence? How can they have systems able to track and shoot down guided missiles, while they can't even do a decent job against snubfighters?

[BlankDots]

There is no doubt even a low kiloton yield nuke would cause massive damage to a hive. A gigaton nuke would wipe out a hive.

You say that 6 tons of TNT per metre squared is very low.

Contrary to what you have said, this is very high. Imagine a MOAB ( mother o fall bombs ) hitting an area that large and detonating all of its explosive power into there. Thats a LOT of power.

True, shielding would make that negligable. But guess what, wraith ships don't have shielding. Low power kinetic energy hits seem to be doing damage to wraith ships. 6 tons of tnt per metre squared of wraith hull, would destroy the hive ship.

Ok lets work with diamond, because this is the hardest naturally occuring material known to man. Also they said wraith ships are organic, which would mean that they are primarily carbon based. Its density is 3.5 tons per cubic metre.

3500000 grams per cubic metre = 292000 moles of carbon.

356000 Joules needed to vaporize every mole of carbon

this equals to 104 Gigajoules needed to vaporize 1 metre cubed of carbon at the maximum 100 kilometre radius.

The equivalence of 6 tons of tnt is equal to 25 gigajoules.

This means that at 100kilometre radius, maximum radius, a 800 gigaton nuke is still able to vaporize 25 centimetres or about a foot of carbon.

A nuke is never ever detonated 100 kilometres away in atlantis. At point blank detonation a gatebuster would turn the hive into junk.

Also high velocity rail guns seem to be able to inflict small amounts of damage to the wraith. It seems somewhat effective, which would suggest that a wraith does not have very thick armour.

Im not still dreaming of those high gigaton shots. Im being reasonable here.

Just say they are 5 gigatons each. If an ISD has 12 of them ( LOWEST possible amount) then thats 60 gigatons per salvo. Even at 1 gigaton, thats 12 gigaton per salvo. In a 1 minute engagement thats what at least 500 gigatons of firepower ( LOWEST gigaton and LOWEST firing estimates).

You say that daedalus uses 26 megaton missiles and uses railguns.

Railguns, IF i am willing to accept your 1 kiloton per shot damage, is still a joke. 10000 rounds will ony yield 10 megatons.

Judging by the size of the daedalus i would say it has no more than 200 VLS tubes. thus 200 missiles seems to be the correct amount. In one of the episodes, it shot all its missiles at once and it didn't look like 200.

Point defence from tie fighters and hundreds of low power lasers/light turbolasers will most likely take out a ton of those missiles.

You said yourself that those missiles have a yield of 26 megatons. If even 50 of them hit. Thats only what? 1 gigaton.

ISD's get pounded by heavy turbolasers. You said that they shoot low gigaton range shots. This proves that ISD's can take your low megaton range missiles.

_________________________________________

SO this is the conclusion

ISD's at worst have low gigaton range heavy turbolasers.
Daedy's main arsenal are 26 megaton missiles with railguns which if they deplete their entire magazine will produce 10 megatons of damage.

A gatebuster IF it is 812 gigaton, will probably destroy the ISD, based on your assumptions of low gigaton turbolasers. However, if a daedy does not have a gatebuster, its dead.

Once all its 200 VLS missiles are launched, its a sitting duck.

Why i fail to believe that a gatebuster is 812 gigatons. While it is depicted as 100 kilometre blast radius, there have been several concerning factors.

Naquadah would have to have a vaporization energy a factor of 1 billion times that of carbon. This seems outrageous, considering scientific factors that define specific trends that aren't broken. Also, if it was so effective, why have they not deployed it against the enemy. Surely a 800 gigaton nuke would cause serious damage to even the Ori.

people have said a ha'tak does 200 megaton shots. This means a 800 gigaton nuke would be equivalent to 4000 hatak shots. A hatak can shoot probably around 60 shots a minute. So a gatebuster is equivalent to 65 hataks shooting at one target for one minute. In the camelot battle, we see around 40 hataks shooting 4 targets. I think that if they had all focused on one target, it may have breached the ori shields. Also take into account that within the first 5 seconds 4 ships were destroyed.

surely 10 gatebusters at 8 terratons would destroy an Ori ship. So why does earth not employ gatebusters like this. I think because things don't add up. The stargate writers, wrote in a weapon which was too powerful and a misguided script. For example, why would they even need horizon armed with 6 nukes. One gatebuster beamed in would destory all the six city ships easily.

So in the end it seems like this.

ISD on a normal engagement would whoop daedy.
Daedy with a gatebuster would whoop ISD.

However, gatebuster is overpowered. I think its just like the turbolaser having 200 gigatons in the Super cross sections book. The authors didn't think about it before they wrote it in.

[Dutch_Razor]

What's the evidence? How can they have systems able to track and shoot down guided missiles, while they can't even do a decent job against snubfighters?

The evidence is the new essential guide.

Besides, even current US warships have CIWS, the problem is you want to shoot every missile, but you certainly don't want to shoot every fighter.

Missiles are smaller, faster. You just set your tracking system to automatically shoot that, you don't want it to shoot your own fighters down.

You could even do it with a Javascript as demonstraated by numerous people on the internet. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...turret&spell=1)

It has also been shown normal Ha'taks and Hives take out 304's missiles.