The Ultimate Earth Ship Discussion Thread #SPOILERS#

[spg_1983]

First, my logic, does make sense. I even accounted for the writers' possible choice to be inconsistent in my logic. I said that if they are not consistent, we cannot assume they would make it a BC-303 anymore than another designation. Therefore in either case stating that they are in fact BC-303's is wrong.

Second, maybe I do come off as mean. I'm sure evolution scientists come off as mean to creationists. I'm sure anyone with common sense comes off as mean to someone who believes the Earth is flat. I'm just another logical person who is getting "burned at the stake" for using science instead of personal beliefs.

Third, throwing childish insults at me and calling me {mod snip}clearly demonstrates that none of you have the maturity to handle this discussion. Regardless of what you may or may not think of my statements, you have no right to behave the way you all are. It is against the forum rules and it is immature.

{mod Snip}

Ok, now in a attempt to not continue with the pointless insults and have a rational discussion let me put it to you this way. I am not faulting you logic. But there has been no definitive clarification either way that the Daedalus and ODessy are or are not BC-303's within the show. Until they explicitly come our and say on the show that the Daedalus and Odessy are not BC-303's, it is a safe and cannonical assumption that they are. I read through your post that you linked and you made some good points but you were also wrong in several of your points as well.

And please get off the self righteous soap box. You are NOT on the same level as an evolutionary scientist going up against a creationist. You are NOT being "burned at the stake" for using scien instead of personal beliefs. Please stop acting like you are fighting for some righteous cause against the forces of ignorance, it is insulting to those of us who actually DO do that in real life and makes you sound ridiculous. We are talking about a simple matter of the fictional numeric designation, of a fiction ship in a fiction universe, it isn't some ground breaking, world defining philosophical question.

[walterIsTheMan]

And please get off the self righteous soap box. You are NOT on the same level as an evolutionary scientist going up against a creationist. You are NOT being "burned at the stake" for using scien instead of personal beliefs. Please stop acting like you are fighting for some righteous cause against the forces of ignorance, it is insulting to those of us who actually DO do that in real life and makes you sound ridiculous. We are talking about a simple matter of the fictional numeric designation, of a fiction ship in a fiction universe, it isn't some ground breaking, world defining philosophical question.

There's nothing self-righteous about it. It's just simply the way it is. There are people who look at evidence and there are people who go with what they believe. I'm looking at evidence. You're right that it's not ground breaking, but the point is that I'm just getting annoyed with people continuing to not use science in the science forum.

Also the fact that you're calling me ridiculous, as well as intentionally being condescending, demonstrates that you too are not of the necessary maturity for this discussion

[aAnubiSs]

wob wob wob wob

Bob Kelso style!

(Drop this matter alredy since there're already 10 topics on this subject and none of them reached an answer. The truth is that 'till they say it on the show we have no idea. They don't follow any known system)

[TrustNo1]

Walter please address McKay's comment of "sister ships". According to wiki a sister ship is:
"A sister ship is a ship of the same class as, or of virtually identical design to, another ship. For instance, the U.S. warships USS Iowa, USS Wisconsin, USS New Jersey and USS Missouri are all sister ships, each being an Iowa-class battleship."

Is that satisfactory evidence for you? Logical?

[walterIsTheMan]

Walter please address McKay's comment of "sister ships". According to wiki a sister ship is:
"A sister ship is a ship of the same class as, or of virtually identical design to, another ship. For instance, the U.S. warships USS Iowa, USS Wisconsin, USS New Jersey and USS Missouri are all sister ships, each being an Iowa-class battleship."

Is that satisfactory evidence for you? Logical?

You're right, that's precisely what a sister ship is; a virtually identical vessel. Since Daedalus is a completely different ship (see the link in my earlier post) it is not a sister ship. That's canon fact. We've seen the Daedalus, we know what its capable of and most of it's specifications. The most likely answer is that McKay did not know about the change of plans regarding abandoning the BC-303 program. Remember, they had been out of touch with Earth for almost a year.

[TrustNo1]

However ships of the same class can differ in appearance and features (county class cruiser). These are usually turned into sub-classes. So the Daedalus would be a sub-class of the Prom but not a different class.

[VirtualCLD]

I do have SOLID PROOF. READ my information. Like I said, unless in the unlikely event that TPTB are abandoning their consistency to follow Air Force procedure, the Daedalus and Odyssey are NOT BC-303's.

I have to agree that your information is correct, there's no doubt there, so yo are in fact, correct. The problem is that this is a TV show after all, and it appears as if TPTB have started to abandon/deviate form the Air Force procedure (though come to think of it, that isn't just Air Force. The AF, Navy, Marines, and even Army all operate aircraft of some type or another, and they all seem to follow the same numbering system with no "class" designations).

If TPTB were not abandoning their consistency, why does the senator say "Daedalus class?" For that matter, why name the individual ships. Sure the F-15 has the name "Eagle", or "Strike Eagle" for the 2-seater Ground Support variant, but you don't give each aircraft individual names.

I think (though I admit I have no proof other than what I mentioned above) TPTB have started deviating from normal aircraft naming procedure and have started adopting a more Naval like naming system to appease the audience. I think the audience would be more comfortable with that system.

[walterIsTheMan]

I have to agree that your information is correct, there's no doubt there, so yo are in fact, correct. The problem is that this is a TV show after all, and it appears as if TPTB have started to abandon/deviate form the Air Force procedure (though come to think of it, that isn't just Air Force. The AF, Navy, Marines, and even Army all operate aircraft of some type or another, and they all seem to follow the same numbering system with no "class" designations).

If TPTB were not abandoning their consistency, why does the senator say "Daedalus class?" For that matter, why name the individual ships. Sure the F-15 has the name "Eagle", or "Strike Eagle" for the 2-seater Ground Support variant, but you don't give each aircraft individual names.

I think (though I admit I have no proof other than what I mentioned above) TPTB have started deviating from normal aircraft naming procedure and have started adopting a more Naval like naming system to appease the audience. I think the audience would be more comfortable with that system.

I agree that that may be the case, they may be moving towards a Naval nomenclature scheme. But in that case, since each ship in the Navy has it's own registry number, and since there has already been a 303 then the Daedalus would not be one.

I'm not saying they haven't been incosistent before, God knows they have, but what I'm saying is if that's the case, then there's still no reason to assume it would be a 303. If they're not gonna be consistent, then all evidence is irrelevant, including that which points toward it being a 303, therefore the statement of fact in title of this thread is incorrect.

[npattis]

!!geek patrol alert!!!!geek patrol alert!!

neway {Mod Snip}
stargate is fanasty, and this is a FANASTY FORUM!!!

hence, {Mod Snip}

I'd say posting on a website of a popular SciFi makes all geeks

[The Marovingean]

Bullets were ineffective against the Goa'uld personal shield. I doubt railguns would be much different against a Ha'tak's shields. And considering a Ha'tak's shields can withstand a pretty good beating by another Ha'tak's energy weapons, I seriously don't think bullets the size of someone's fist are going to be wearing them down anytime soon.

Just a thought, but maybe the fact that our Railguns use Kinetic energy rather than heat/light energy affects the enemy shields. Shields on a Ha'tak may be able to handle energy weapons, but maybe they can't handle projectiles as well. It would make sense, too, seeing as though the Ha'tak ships were based around defence against plasma based weapons. Of course, its all just an idea and i bet someone will prove me wrong

[Sleeper919]

Well, I don't think our ships are too small, but I do agree we need better weapons. Our Missiles are too slow and the Railguns we have, well I don't know about them. Nobody knows if they really are that effective against shields.
They are really more of a point defense weapon against small craft.
We definately need some energy weapons.

Maybe the Asgard will, in time, give us some energy weapons for our ships.
Highly unlikely though.

[ancientaction]

they will mostlikley give us some weapons. probally weapons that they consider oudated, and something they could easily defend themsevles against.

[Xavier (Matt Verdouw)]

I'd say posting on a website of a popular SciFi makes all geeks

haahaha touche!

[cooky]

My take on this, for what its worth.

First, Earth began to do research into the technologies needed to build a space capable battle ship. Research and theory could only take them so far without the ability to test those theories. To do this, they built Prometheus, as a test bed for advanced space-based technologies, NOT as a prototype. Need of a functional ship forced the use of Prometheus in front-line duty.

From mid season 6 through early season 7 various technologies, especially hyperdrive and power generators were tested on Prometheus. Early season 7 also saw the begining of the design phase for a production battle cruiser. Some aspects of Prometheus's design were incorporated into the new design, while changes were made based on lessons learned from Prometheus. Though the Asgard had supplied shields and weapons (yes, I did say weapons, more on this at the end) for Prometheus, it was a one time offer and the new designs did not include them.

Late season 7, or perhapes between 7 and 8, the first of the new ship class, Daedalus, went into production. Like construction of sea-going craft, the first part of the ship to be built is the support structure or "skelleton." Construction of the Daedalus had barelly begun when the events of New Order took place. After New Order, but before Rising, the Asgard offered to help earth with advanced technologies for its battle cruisers.

Construction of Daedalus was halted and the design re-enginered to incorporate the Asgard technology. The ship's hull was also redesigned, incorporating the parts already constructed, (forward superstructure that resembles Prometheus) modifications included larger landing bay for more fighters and the removal of the command tower, giving the ship a smaller profile, usefull against energy weapons that can't redirect once fired the way missiles can. The enlarged landing bays resulted in a change of designation from BC, Battle Cruiser, (Enemy Mine) to Space Carrier as seen on the Oddysey unit patch. This redesign had begun, but had not been completed before the Atlantis expedition was launched, which is why McKay knew of the Asgard tech, and said Daedalus was a sistership to Prometheus, even though it isn't. With the help of the Asgard, virtual simulations were done to prove the viability of the new design without having to build a prototype. Once proven, construction of Daedalus resumed, using the new designs. This made Daedalus the first of a new class of ship, similar, but not the same as Prometheus. Because of the need for ships, Prometheus was not decomisioned like experemental aircraft are in real life. Repairs from the battle in Lost City were made, but without the Asgard to help, we were unable to repair the shields and weapon systems. Later, when contact with the Asgard was re-established, repairs were made and an Asgard hyperdrive and power generator were installed. Once Daedalus completed its shakedown cruse and was made operational, Prometheus was upgraded using the new technologies the Asgard were providing, which is what Carter was doing in early season 9.

This is not unlike the developement of the F/A-18 fighter in real life. A prototype, known as the F-17 was built and flown, but the military decided not to buy it. The basic design was then taken back to the drawing board, modifications and improvements were made and a new fighter built. Visibly the new fighter, the F-18 was very much like the F-17 prototype and incorporated some of its technology, but enough changes were made that it is considered a different design. The military did decide to buy the new fighter.

As for Prometheus's Asgard weapons, they were removed and replaced with rail guns durring the upgrade in early season 9. The reason for this is two fold, one is so we can repair the ships systems ourselves without the Asgard's help should we lose contact again. Second, since the Asgard were unwilling to provide weapons for the new design, which is the design Earth's other nations would also be building, removing Prometheus's Asgard built weapons was a diplomatic move to avoid internation problems with the U.S. having a superior ship to the other nations. This would be possible, despite the obvious objections the U.S. would have if the Asgard made the technologies available through a trade treaty that would only be agreed to if all of Earth's nations signed onto it (or atleast those aware of the Stargate/Daedalus). Earth's other nations would then only agree to sign the trade treaty if the U.S. agreed to remove the Asgard weapons from Prometheus. Essentially, it became a trade, Prometheus's weapons for all of the Asgard technology now on the Daedalus class ships.

This would mean Daedalus class ships are not BC-303's. As far as I can tell, it explains away all the plot mistakes the ptb's made.

[NakedJehutyV2]

See and this is the problem you have. You think this is a matter of believing in theories. It has nothing whatsoever to do with beliefs. Do not post in the Science Forum if you do not intend to use logic and evidence. What I am doing is looking at the evidence and drawing a conclusion. What you are doing is deciding what you think the answer is, then trying to work backwards to manufacture proof.

I do have SOLID PROOF. READ my information. Like I said, unless in the unlikely event that TPTB are abandoning their consistency to follow Air Force procedure, the Daedalus and Odyssey are NOT BC-303's.

Also it's interesting that you say an individual needs solid proof, yet you started a thread stating that they are BC-303's as fact when you don't have solid proof.

And you're not just wrong to me, you're wrong to any logical person that has examined the evidence. Again I point out that this is just like the Creation vs Evolution. You are arguing what you believe. I am arguing what the evidence suggests. As long as you continue to base your beliefs on your opinions instead of on the evidence, then this thread is not Science it is Fantasy and is Off-Topic for this forum. I will remind you that posting Off-Topic is against forum rules.

you are the joke. you have no links with proof. only what you typed up yourself