GateWorld's Vision Statement .Suggestions welcome

[Coco Pops]

May I ask what actually prompted this decision?

[Willow'sCat]

Hmm, has someone from MGM had words? Seriously I see no more negative talk here today then we had back in 2005 about SG-1. It might be slightly more focused on one or two "events" now but really, GW has always had a rep out there in cyberland as a negative place.

Well go ask peeps on LJ about GW. Many left here in 2005/6 and went there and never returned.

I am not sure I meet the "new" requirements. Do I get a doggy bag if I leave? I mean talk about a lot of time invested in a site that no longer wants me here.

Yeah and sorry that is negative but that is how I feel.

[Coco Pops]

Hmm, has someone from MGM had words? Seriously I see no more negative talk here today then we had back in 2005 about SG-1. It might be slightly more focused on one or two "events" now but really, GW has always had a rep out there in cyberland as a negative place.

I wondered that too that's why I asked directly what prompted this sudden change?

A lot of fan sites are getting told off around the place because so called "media companies" feel threatened by free speech and public comment about their precious TV shows.. Yet they do not realise that without us watching and buying their flipping shows they would all be out of a job.

OK rant over....

[GateGipsy]

It isn't a sudden desicion. It has been coming for a long time. It has been something we've talked about, well, for years really. Someone pointed to 2005/6 - that's a good example. As far as I know, no media company has been behind it.

Just felt like a good time, with the start of a new show without any overlap, to try to get the forum back to the way it was.

Personally, and I am not speaking as a moderator here, I really do dislike the idea of anti threads and pro threads. I feel they promote the wrong sort of culture in the forum. What attracted me to GW first, and I have been here since 2001, is that it is a discussion forum. I originally joined the Danielites, but found that while I could appreciate the devotion to the character, I needed more discussion. When I first came to GW, it was incredible. I immediately made good friends (and am still friends with) shippers, who were happy for me to disagree when they saw ship and I didn't. Likewise, I often, and frequently, got the p*** taken out of me for worshipping a fictional character as a deity. But it was all done in a respectful way. No-one ever told me that I couldn't worship Daniel Jackson. They just thought the idea was nuts, but they were perfectly happy for me to express that viewpoint, just as I was happy for them to express the viewpoint that, for example, Jack sniffed Sam's hair in Out of Mind (even though clearly she didn't).

That's the attitude that we'd like the forum to get back to. If the forum was run the way it is now, way back then, then there would have been a Pro Sniff thread, and an Anti Sniff thread, and there would have been no discussion between the two.

Someone way back suggested that we get more threads merged so there's not a stack of threads on an episode, concentrating on just one little thing. Personally, and I am not speaking as a mod, I disagree with that. I am a nitpicker and proud of it I would quite happily have a discussion on one little point ad infinium, and have fun doing so. It is part of why I wanted to get into the fandom in the first place.

[Madeleine]

May I ask what actually prompted this decision?

The imminent start of a new SG show seems to have been the biggest single factor.

Atlantis began when most SG-1 fans by far were still positive about the show, and those who weren't didn't seem to care a great deal whether Atlantis sank for good or not.

Even so, five years in there's so much negativity about that a lot of people are put off coming here, and a lot of people who do come here find it gruelling.

SGU seems to have a lot of people against it from the start. People who are openly hopeful that it will crash and burn because they resent it usurping Atlantis or whatever; people who find it necessary to post at length about how they won't be watching (and who, by extrapolation, we suspect might post at length about why they are not watching once the show starts); people who put every bad element of Atlantis (though, oddly, not the good elements) down to the writers who will work on SGU; people who despise SGA for faults that they are already seeing magnified in SGU... and we worry that the new little subforum might be smothered before it ever gets to draw breath.

There's sometimes fun to be had in stamping on stuff, but if the stuff getting trodden into the mud is something you care for - and there WILL be some who care for SGU - it's not great fun to watch, day in day out.

We have been happy to cater for 'anti-SGA' sorts, because we reckon most of them actually liked the show at some time, and so have some sort of legitimate interest in it and its characters. We see NO such reason to cater at this stage to anti-SGU sentiment to the same extent. What good can it do to jeer and sneer at a show before it's even been filmed let alone broadcast?

We want to be a place where people can share their enjoyment of SGU. If most of the chatter is about how puerile and badly written it is bound to be, the people who are looking forward to it will find it a chore to be here, instead of fun.

[TameFarrar]

May I ask what actually prompted this decision?

I wondered that too that's why I asked directly what prompted this sudden change?

A lot of fan sites are getting told off around the place because so called "media companies" feel threatened by free speech and public comment about their precious TV shows.. Yet they do not realise that without us watching and buying their flipping shows they would all be out of a job.

OK rant over....

From Darren a bit earlier in the thread.........

I suppose that I have a belief in the innate goodness of all people, so I hope that if enough of our regulars really and truly buy into this vision of making the forum a more positive place to celebrate the franchise, they'll make it happen. Likewise, the trolls need to be so frustrated at their inability to get a rise out of anyone that they get bored and leave.

EDIT: I agree that it's been the last two years of SGA that has seen this arise in fandom. No need to try and whitewash it. Part of our decision to start implementing this now is that the end of one show and the beginning of a new one offers us a rare opportunity to try and set a new tone.

[Crazedwraith]

Despite the fact my own reviews usually tend more towards the negative: Dwelling on things I didn't like more than those I do. I still welcome this move. There's a difference between acknowledging the weak points of an episode and drowning the forums in excessive amounts of bile and hatred that makes you wonder why they even watch the show anymore.

On idea, I'd like to put forward is that if you cut the subforums for each and every episode and just post discussion threads; then you won't get a zillion threads for each and every minor complaint people can think of for an episode.

On the other hand; this leads to the rapid ballooning of the individual episode threads; which itself stifles discussion, its hard to keep up with a thread that grows by three pages when you look away for a second.

[Laura Dove]

The issue is not constructivity (hey, that's not a word?), it's negativity. We're wanting people to celebrate the elements of the franchise that they love.
So no, a post like "OMG best episode evar!" shouldn't need to be moderated. It's not particularly conducive to discussion, but sometimes all you have to contribute is "I really liked it" (in whatever netspeak / teenspeak vernacular you use).
Because we're trying to shift the overall tone of the forum from the negative to the positive, it's the negative criticisms (and believe me, I have a few myself) that bear a greater burden of "proof" -- i.e. that need to be accompanied with some explanation and be stated tactfully.

Post 69 and at last you're honest! You are perfectly entitled to require a positive-only forum; with all the work and money you invest in it, the least we can do is make it a pleasant place for you. It's your forum. If we don't like it, so be it, you don't owe us anything.

But just be honest. Don't call it a discussion forum if only like-minded comments are encouraged, while disagreeing ones are constantly attacked and in need to be justified. Don't deny many people will feel unwelcome when they'll be condemned for what bothers them and detracts from their enjoyment of the show, without even having their own comfort thread to feel better. If what you wish is to increase the general liking of the show, then positive comments need to be justified even more than negative ones. On the other hand, if you feel only comfortable with praise, don't claim you welcome all opinions.

I'm not trying to justify personal insults against actors, writers or showrunners (I agree they must be banned firmly), nor do I deny you to run your own forum as you please. Just don't claim you're not banning negative comments if they'll be considered lower-class by default. If only displeased people need to be respectful of pleased ones' feelings, it's not respect at all.

You are introducing a strong bias over allowed opinions in the forum. It's your perfect right to, but please stop claiming you aren't. Honesty is the first requirement of respect.

[GateGipsy]

Don't deny many people will feel unwelcome when they'll be condemned for what bothers them and detracts from their enjoyment of the show,

But it is this condemnation that we are trying to get away from now. Comfort threads are the very opposite of discussion. By removing the idea that you can have a thread in which only your pov is expressed, we're promoting discussion rather than reducing it.

What I want, and what I personally would like to see the mission statement achieve, is a forum where discussions are just that. People can come in, express a point of view, and discuss that point of view. They are not attacked for having that point of view, it is their point of view that is disagreed with not their right to have that point of view. That level of respect seems to have disappeared from the forum. I know that I do not play here like I used to for that reason.

With Stargate Universe, there simply is no reason that I can think of why people should go in there to simply say they aren't going to watch that show. I am not going to watch America's Next Top Model because I think it is a rubbish show. I may say in the off topic section of this forum that I hate reality shows and only want to watch sci fi. But why on earth would I go to a forum for fans of America's Next Top Model to say that I thought the show was rubbish and I am never going to watch it?

If you're an Atlantis fan, but only of certain seasons, then of course you're going to express that in the Atlantis forum and why not? It is a forum for Atlantis fans. And if I was an Atlantis fan who felt p*****d that the show was being replaced by another show, then I can fully understand why I would galvanise support amongst likeminded folks in the Atlantis fandom. But why on earth would you go to the forum for fans of a show to galvanise support *there* against that show? It doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not a fan of Atlantis, at least I wasn't (but that's under revision now that I have Sky again and am getting to watch it. I am actually enjoying the last season) and I was p****d off when SG1 was cancelled in favour of SGA but it wouldn't occur to me to go and voice that in the forum for the fans of SGA. I would do so in the forum for SG1.

[TameFarrar]

Post 69 and at last you're honest! You are perfectly entitled to require a positive-only forum; with all the work and money you invest in it, the least we can do is make it a pleasant place for you. It's your forum. If we don't like it, so be it, you don't owe us anything.

But just be honest. Don't call it a discussion forum if only like-minded comments are encouraged, while disagreeing ones are constantly attacked and in need to be justified. Don't deny many people will feel unwelcome when they'll be condemned for what bothers them and detracts from their enjoyment of the show, without even having their own comfort thread to feel better. If what you wish is to increase the general liking of the show, then positive comments need to be justified even more than negative ones. On the other hand, if you feel only comfortable with praise, don't claim you welcome all opinions.

I'm not trying to justify personal insults against actors, writers or showrunners (I agree they must be banned firmly), nor do I deny you to run your own forum as you please. Just don't claim you're not banning negative comments if they'll be considered lower-class by default. If only displeased people need to be respectful of pleased ones' feelings, it's not respect at all.

You are introducing a strong bias over allowed opinions in the forum. It's your perfect right to, but please stop claiming you aren't. Honesty is the first requirement of respect.

I do believe this is yet another case of taking what has been said to the extreme and twisting it to suit your needs.

Negative opinions have not been banned, and the fact that this is a Fan Forum to celebrate a TV show that would like to have a Positive Spirit should not threaten any of those that would like to be able to express those not so positive opinions. The fact that all members are being asked to be respectful and the fact that negative opinions are being asked to be more constructive shouldn't be considered to a a *bad thing* nor bias thing. However, as has been said many times we are striving to bring GW back to a more Positive and welcoming place for all who enjoy and celebrate community as well as Stargate and maybe for some this just won't be the place for them.

[Laura Dove]

But it is this condemnation that we are trying to get away from now. Comfort threads are the very opposite of discussion. By removing the idea that you can have a thread in which only your pov is expressed, we're promoting discussion rather than reducing it.

No, you're not. "OMFG this is awesome" is not discussion. Darren clearly admitted it in the post I quoted:

The issue is not constructivity (hey, that's not a word?), it's negativity.

By requiring that negative opinions need to be justified in length, but not positive ones, you are not promoting discussion, you are only promoting praise. You are enforcing condemnation of some opinions in the forum rules themselves, so please, stop claiming you are trying to get away from condemnation of certain opinions. By default, concerns will be guilty and praise innocent. I don't know what it is, if not implicit condemnation of negative views.

With Stargate Universe, there simply is no reason that I can think of why people should go in there to simply say they aren't going to watch that show.

I see one: SciFi and MGM don't hesitate to state how SGU is the future of Stargate and existing fans should take it as a fallback once SGA is no more, like SGA was supposed to be the successor of SG-1 once it was no more. It's not as if SGU was a completely unrelated show; at least, that's not what TPTB want us to believe.

If you're an Atlantis fan, but only of certain seasons, then of course you're going to express that in the Atlantis forum and why not?

You ask why not?? Seems obvious enough: Because after a while it'll become tiresome to be constantly belittled for not liking everything of SGA, so you'll just seek some more accepting place.

What I expect, since you can't make people love what they hate just with "OMFG this is awesome" comments, is that you'll get true discussions in threads where it is out topic, such as balanced Keller arguments in a pro-Teyla thread, or intelligent discussion of both pros and cons of a specific episode in the Wraith Defenders Club.

I do believe this is yet another case of taking what has been said to the extreme and twisting it to suit your needs.

Did you even read Darren's post I quoted? Did you even read your own posts? At least, you are the most honest of all mods.

Negative opinions have not been banned,

Not explicitely, no. But being constantly challenged will have the very same effect.

and the fact that this is a Fan Forum to celebrate a TV show that would like to have a Positive Spirit should not threaten any of those that would like to be able to express those not so positive opinions. The fact that all members are being asked to be respectful

And what about the fact that some are asked to be more respectful than others?

and the fact that negative opinions are being asked to be more constructive shouldn't be considered to a a *bad thing* nor bias thing. However, as has been said many times we are striving to bring GW back to a more Positive and welcoming place for all who enjoy and celebrate community as well as Stargate and maybe for some this just won't be the place for them.

I guess the parts I bolded in your message reach the bottom line: GateWorld forum is not for those who prefer discussing their favourite show (which includes recognising its flaws) over celebrating.

As I said above, it's your money (well, Darren's) and your time. But at least display yourselves the respect you're claiming you want for the forum.

[FallenAngelII]

But it is this condemnation that we are trying to get away from now. Comfort threads are the very opposite of discussion. By removing the idea that you can have a thread in which only your pov is expressed, we're promoting discussion rather than reducing it.

I was a bit unclear before when referring to "threads" exclusively instead of just "posts". The thing is that GW is apparently supposed to usher in a new era where "negative" posts will need more "moderation" than positive ones and where one can say "Best episode evar!" without problems but if one just says "Worst episode evar!", it'd kinda be against the rules unless one elaborated a bit.

That's unfair. If one extreme is not allowed, the other extreme should not be allowed either.

The defense of "Best episode evar!"-posts was that "sometimes that's all you have to say". Well, sometimes, "Worst episode evar!" is all you have to say, as well. The whole spirit behind this new Vision Statement seems to be that Negativity is bad, bad, bad and that you need more justification for you negative criticisms than your positive posts.

If someone can say "Best episode evar!" without even explaining why they thought the episode was the best episode evar, than someone else should be equally justified in saying "Worst episode evar!"

Why? This is the biggest and best-known Stargate FAN site on the net. If people can't say here that they like the show, wouldn't that be a little silly?

Why is it not allowed to say you hate the show/an episode/something without elaboration, yet you can say you love it without elaborating? That is unfairly punishing people who dislike certain elements of the show.

If someone can say "I loved this episode!" and leave it at that, why not the opposite? Why must one defend one's negative impressions of an episode more than those with a positive impression?

It feels like trying to create a La La Land where everything is supposed to be positive or at least where negativity is punished and requires more justification than abject positivity about every little thing.

I've never expressed abject hatred for the shows. I'm still watching Atlantis after 5 seasons and countless seemingly random changes in direction. I still enjoy the show.

But I don't love everything there is about it. Therefore, I will often point out the flaws of the show in discussion. Many members on this forum view this as somehow unacceptable and will give me grief for it every chance they get, as if my way of analyzing the show is bad.

I fear that this is a step towards banning such a way of discussion. We begin small, with just disallowing people from simply saying they disliked something without enough justification. Then it might escalate, next up, people who cannot defend why they view something negatively adequately enough (and what constitutes "adequate" will be up to the mods to arbitrarily judge) will be censored.

And one day, GW might be bastion of positivity where you have to either stay positive or get out.

[Skydiver]

Quick question, will posts like...'OMG best episode evar!' be modded to say, "please post something well thought out and constructive?"

This is where members help the mods out. You see something like this, you, as a forum member, can go 'hey, what was your favorite part'...you help edge the person towards discussion and inclusion.

will this policy also stretch to the social groups???

As Tame said, the rules apply across board. We haven't discussed whether or not any social groups will be closed. Like Darren said, this is an ongoing effort that will span months. It's a fluid process that will change and be tweaked as situations present themselves.

Okay, so does negativity equal criticism? Because that's what it's beginning to sound like in some places. We can be constructively critical, but the problem is so many people lebel any kind of concrit as "negative".

and that's when people give the mods a nudge and we educate people that 'wow, that was boring' is not negative in and of itself. And it's when you as a forum member, even if you loved the show, ask 'really? i didn't think so, why did you find it boring' and you start a discussion.

Have to agree. It seems RDA leaving Stargate truly started to seperate the forums into these groups known as Pro and Anti.

Does GW feel the Pro and Anti threads (Compliments and Complaints) are their "Michael"?

No. And generalizations like that aren't helpful. As someone that ws there, what started the divisiveness between 'pro' and 'anti' was the intolerance on both sides. It was those that were upset being told to get over it and shut up or go away by those that weren't upset. At its most basic, the intolerant pro's brought the anti's into existence.

That being said, the gleeful nastiness of the most extreme anti's have done a lot to darken the atmosphere of the forum. And the 'armed camp' attitude of both ardent pro's and anti's has been seriously 'unfun' for all of us.

May I ask what actually prompted this decision?

As darren said, it's something he's been wanting to do for a long time, however the 'birth' of SGU has given him a good starting point.

I do want to address the concern about the C&R threads. NO FINAL DECISIONS HAVE BEEN MADE. I want to stress that. however, as we looked over the forum, adn the first 100 threads in C&R, we identified six, that's SIX that we think don't quite fit with what we want to do.

That's less than 10%, it's 6 percent in fact

This bare handful stand a very good chance of getting closed, but that's all.

As to the idea that character threads will be pro only...no. In fact, the word 'pro' is likely going to be as 'naughty' of a word as 'anti'.

One idea we've bandied about is altering 'pro sam and jack ship' (for example) into 'what i like about sam and jack'...indicating that this is a place for those that like the pairing to come and play, but liking does not = all positive all the time. You discuss...just like you discuss now.

And if a person hates the pairing....why are you wasting your time railing about something you can't change? go find something you like and enjoy that.

The goal is, again, for people to find their 'joy' in the show and immerse themselves in it and not fuss over what they don't like

[TameFarrar]

I will once again suggest that folks read the *Vision Statement* as well as Darren's other posts and the other Moderator posts though out this thread from the beginning and get a clearer picture of what we are asking folks to ponder on and then comment on and then discuss. It seems that the focus is truly getting very skewered here and somewhat narrow because folks are reading just the last few posts and not reading the things in in *Whole picture* entirety.

There may be a lean towards a more positive spirit and a general overall desire to make the Community as whole more positive. But to continue to hammer that GW is banning things or must somehow be fair or balanced is not accurate. What we are is a Fan Forum that is also a Community of Fans that should be here to enjoy something not tear something down.

[GateGipsy]

No, you're not. "OMFG this is awesome" is not discussion. Darren clearly admitted it in the post I quoted: By requiring that negative opinions need to be justified in length, but not positive ones, you are not promoting discussion, you are only promoting praise.

This mission statement and the new policies aren't set in stone. It is a work in progress and this thread is that progress. Darren has already clarified that he is not banning people from simply saying that they don't like X or Y. He has clarified the point thusly: One thing I do want to make clear: We're not banning negativity. It's OK to say, "I didn't really like that, and I'm not sure I can tell you why." Just be respectful of your fellow members, and the people who made the episode. Everyone has opinions and tastes, and part of our community life is to share those with each other. Just don't fight with someone who holds a different opinion.

You are enforcing condemnation of some opinions in the forum rules themselves, so please, stop claiming you are trying to get away from condemnation of certain opinions. By default, concerns will be guilty and praise innocent. I don't know what it is, if not implicit condemnation of negative views.

Not so. As said before, the mission statement isn't fact. It is there for the forum to look at, discuss, and build upon/change. Darren has already agreed with you. See the quote from Darren above.

I see one: SciFi and MGM don't hesitate to state how SGU is the future of Stargate and existing fans should take it as a fallback once SGA is no more, like SGA was supposed to be the successor of SG-1 once it was no more. It's not as if SGU was a completely unrelated show; at least, that's not what TPTB want us to believe.

In that case I can see why you would go to the show's forum, such as Skiffy, and post there. But I still can't see why you would on a fan forum. But you are right, there is going to be discussion in SGU that relates to SGA and SG1 and we really need to discuss more how we'll go about handling that so that it works for both old and new fans. How would you do that?

You ask why not?? Seems obvious enough: Because after a while it'll become tiresome to be constantly belittled for not liking everything of SGA, so you'll just seek some more accepting place.

The plan is to more rigourously enforce the respect rule, so that this belittling just plain stops. For this we need regulars to also try and cultivate a culture here at GW that doesn't encourage this behaviour too.

What I expect, since you can't make people love what they hate just with "OMFG this is awesome" comments, is that you'll get true discussions in threads where it is out topic, such as balanced Keller arguments in a pro-Teyla thread, or intelligent discussion of both pros and cons of a specific episode in the Wraith Defenders Club.

we won't have pro or anti threads in SGU. There is an argument that the SGA forum is beyond redemption but you're right in a way. This won't happen over night, especially not in the SGA folder, but our hope is that with a lot of hard work by posters and mods alike, we'll get to a point where you'll have balanced discussions about all characters, cast, crew etc in all threads and there simply won't be a need for people to retreat to comfort threads. That's the sort of GW I would like to build, especially for all the new SGU fans that will be coming here and it rather sounds like it is the sort of GW you'd like for the SGA fandom too. What we're doing, hopefully, in this thread is figuring out how we can build it.