'Trial and Error' (206) General Discussion

[Galileo_Galilee]

And also, if she was altered by the blues and not some other alien that we didn't know about, why change her and not Rush?

Chloe's only purpose on the show is to be the damsel in distress. She's pretty much useless in any other capacity.

Rush would be the better choice to put a mole in the group. He knows more than anybody else and is more capable of understanding the Destiny than anybody else, save Eli, but he's not changing?

Of course there's the other possibility that he's changing too and is just keeping it secret like everything else he does.

But I believe he would still be a better choice to be a mole than Chloe.

[the fifth man]

I really thought this was a good episode. I can't wait to see where Young goes from here.

[Kaiphantom]

Chloe's only purpose on the show is to be the damsel in distress. She's pretty much useless in any other capacity.

I think you just summed up another reason why her character bothers me. It's almost like she can't do anything for herself, in addition to doing nothing for anyone else.

Rush would be the better choice to put a mole in the group. He knows more than anybody else and is more capable of understanding the Destiny than anybody else, save Eli, but he's not changing?

Of course there's the other possibility that he's changing too and is just keeping it secret like everything else he does.

But I believe he would still be a better choice to be a mole than Chloe.

You bring up good points, and I suppose we'll never know. It seems like the writers are hellbent on making Chloe's only asset being her alien-ness. Rush being alien-infected would dampen Chloe's specialness, and they can't have that.

[morbosfist]

The fact that she blacks out is the key difference. While she's actively conscious, as in she's in control of her actions, nothing strange happens. Whereas, when she blacks out, as in she's not in control of her actions, everything else happens.
O'Neill was conscious, and actively aware of what was going on, however, his sub-counscious, knowing the requirements would direct his actions.
The disconnect is crucial, and actually points to a separate entity in her brain.

Ever heard of sleepwalking? O'Neill was not actively aware of what he was doing. He was conscious, but he didn't know what he was doing or why.

You're basing your theory on your understanding of medical technology, biology, etc....
What I'm saying is that might not be sufficient to prove concretely the facts of the situation.
These Blue Aliens have technology way advanced than our current understanding of these fields. They are able to construct and operate intergalactic spacecrafts. What else advancements do they have at their disposal? What is the extent of their medical technology? We don't know.
And yet, you state your theory as a fact. What I'm saying is that I don't know. Without a better understanding of their technological capability, I won't accept your categorization that Chloe has a Virus. Do I know what she has, or how it is affecting her? Nope, not a clue.

As I've pointed out, we do know, because TJ says so. You can claim up and down you don't believe me, but it's been said straight up in the show. She's fighting an infection. That is what TJ's statement means, no two ways about it.

[Misfits]

Ever heard of sleepwalking? O'Neill was not actively aware of what he was doing. He was conscious, but he didn't know what he was doing or why.

O'Neill wasn't consciously aware of his actions, however his sub-conscious was well aware of his needs and was acting accordingly.
As for Chloe, her actions are not her desires in any way.
As for sleepwalking, are you kidding me? This is just getting laughable. Writting Ancient and Blue Alien language in her Diary is sleepwalking? What other absurd concoction are you going to pull out next?

As I've pointed out, we do know, because TJ says so. You can claim up and down you don't believe me, but it's been said straight up in the show. She's fighting an infection. That is what TJ's statement means, no two ways about it.

Your interpretation is short-sighted, at best. Without factual knowledge of Blue Alien technological capabilities, any claims to what Chloe has or is happening to her is foolish.

All TJ is doing is analyzing what she sees based on her knowledge. She also knows nothing about what is happening to Chloe or what is causing these changes or what the final transformation will be.
To claim any theories as factual on such limited understanding of the process is downright insane.

[morbosfist]

O'Neill wasn't consciously aware of his actions, however his sub-conscious was well aware of his needs and was acting accordingly.
As for Chloe, her actions are not her desires in any way.
As for sleepwalking, are you kidding me? This is just getting laughable. Writting Ancient and Blue Alien language in her Diary is sleepwalking? What other absurd concoction are you going to pull out next?

And yet again you miss the point entirely. When people sleepwalk, they carry out actions without being consciously aware of them. Same with Chloe. Her ability to do these things is no more proof of a second intelligence than O'Neill's actions.

Your interpretation is short-sighted, at best. Without factual knowledge of Blue Alien technological capabilities, any claims to what Chloe has or is happening to her is foolish.

All TJ is doing is analyzing what she sees based on her knowledge. She also knows nothing about what is happening to Chloe or what is causing these changes or what the final transformation will be.
To claim any theories as factual on such limited understanding of the process is downright insane.

As is denying any evidence to stick to your "magic" theory. You simply do not want to admit being wrong at this point, and without any way to disprove the facts, you shun them and claim the blues are doing it through some techno hocus-pocus beyond our understanding. Sorry, doesn't work that way. TJ can and has identified a biological reaction to whatever agent is affecting Chloe's system, based on studies of similar pathogens. Same as has happened in Stargate dozens of times before. It's an infection, as is apparent by Chloe's reaction to it, and no matter how much you complain, that fact is set in stone.

[SGeff]

You have some valid points, so, let's review them. While Brody was monitoring the transfer of data in 'Human', there is no such indication that this was the case with Chloe. Furthermore, it is a given that Rush can program rings around everybody except Eli, and Eli was not at the controls. If you accept the concept that Rush engineered this whole scheme from the start, then he would have also programed display outputs that he can manipulate. Remember in 'Earth', the Earth scientists were clueless as to actual going ons while they were clearly looking at the console displays.

Well, actually this proved my point. You said Rush can program rings around everybody except Eli, that is not true. Actually Rush didn't do it by his own, he had Brody's help, remember? Which suggest Brody may have the ability to find out what Rush did, further more it was a complicate work, Rush couldn't do by his own, he had to ask for Brody's help.

As to why would he risk this scenario, remember that this is the same person that dialed the 9th chevron address in the first place. His pursuit of his 'dream' has no bounds. As he was conversing with Gloria, Rush indicates that having Chloe loose and free on Destiny is what he wanted. Yeah, he could bring Chloe to his 'Thinking Room' or bring his notebook to her, however, that would limit what Chloe would be able to decipher. Her freedom to roam would give Chloe the choice of what to study. And her choices may be things that Rush hasn't even noticed yet.
Remember that Rush was willing to sacrifice someone on the POSSIBILITY that the neuro-interface chair could be helpful.
And what do we have here. A possible decipher entity, Chloe, that would be helpful in his quest to better understand Destiny, caged, confined, restrained. Not his cup of java, as the saying goes.
Also remember his conversation with Young when her Diary was being discussed. He was adamant that Chloe be allowed to continue studying Destiny.
When you put all these pieces together, to me, Rush set up the ruse of the chair curing Chloe.

Yes, Rush would sacrifice anyone to get what he want. But what I am saying is not someone, it is Rush himself. Would he be risk himself to get what he want? No, in "Life" he didn't sit by himself right?

Dial the Ninth Chevron is quite a different situation. If he didn't dial and came back to earth, being failed to dail it, he would be taken off the project. It was like do it now or leave the project forever.

And now transfer data to Chloe and risk being caught, Young will lock him up like Chloe, do a test if he is turning to an alien too considering he was abducted by alien too. Besides the whole crew would see him as a betrayer, no people will help him any more. It is more like do it now and possibly leave the project forever, which is the only thing Rush actually afraid of.

[nx01a]

This episode is on trial. Is it guilty of being a bad episode? Is it guilty of being a good episode? Let's review the evidence...

The Good:
>Major geekgasm during the space battles!
>Destiny getting destroyed over and over again. Very TNG: Cause and Effect.
>Destiny getting in people's heads. I guess this was the precursor to the Repositories of Knowledge and the control chairs. I love that Destiny's assessing the crew and their intentions. We don't know if Young would have passed his test had Destiny had time to deliberate, but I think the ship would have gone into FTL even without Rush's tampering. Young had the trial, and Rush errored it.
>Young passed his test, but Rush's test is still ongoing.
>Young laughing his head off during the final hallucination. Very Crichton.
>If Rush has been keeping his secret because of Young's instability, what will his next excuse be now that Young's got his head together?
>Thank the Ancients we didn't have any more stones melodrama with the wife! One less string on Earth to bother the viewers, and a string that really was stupid to begin with. Move on, Young!
>Young addressing the obvious daddy issues Scott has.
>Scott manning up and confronting Young.
>Scott sacrificing himself to save the others, then preparing himself before getting spaced. Nice. Very Harry Kim.
>Secondary explosions: not only for Wraith hive ships.
>Chloe's looking a bit down, a bit blue. At least she has equations to occupy her alien mind.
>I wonder if Destiny can see Chloe's altered thoughts and can manipulate her?
>I can't WAIT to see that domed room turned into a jungle!
>Park does seem to know her plants.
>For the first time in the series, I was actually moved. When TJ tells Young about the baby and tries to help him, I almost found myself getting emotional along with her. Great acting!
>Every member of the crew was used this episode.
>Ginn... She's either going to backstab Eli hard or die a horrible death at Simeon's hands.
>Ginn sitting at the table with the other scientists... minus a military escort. The LA are going to integrate and then... Boom.
>Dialing inside a star! I just KNOW it's how they're gonna get home! I doubt the writers dropped that in just because. At least we're assured of seeing Destiny sunbathing again! The size and type of star is important for the potential wormhole? Sounds much like Ancients and time travel.
>Anyone notice how... commanding and cold 'Franklin' sounds?
>Greer: Voyeur to the stars.
>Wray as ship's counselor. She's no Troi, but I'm warming to her.
>Young confiding in Wray. Didn't see THAT coming. Still, it bodes well for his command.
>Young admitting his euthanasia of Riley to Scott.
>Despite being a hallucination episode right after last episode's hallucination episode, this one worked far better because it had a real purpose and reason: Destiny was behind it.
>I loved how the music kicked in right when Rush is talking about the ship not having desires.
>NO EMO MUSIC MONTAGE!!!!
>The ominous portent at the end! What dangers lie ahead, indeed!

The Bad Errors:
>I'm surprised Rush didn't ask his imaginary friend if Destiny's manipulating him, as well. Perhaps it's a foregone conclusion that's what's happening. But... If there was a noticeable amount of computer use needed to manipulate Young's dreams, how much is necessary to manipulate Rush while he's conscious? Is this obvious lack a sign that it's really all in Rush's head? A bit of Destiny that's inside him, perhaps? A la Crichton/Harvey? Or may be he's just losing it? A la Crichton in general.
>If Destiny's true mission doesn't get revealed by the mid-season finale, I'm gonna be miffed. They're stretching out that reveal a bit much.
>Scott not being infected, too. Kind of a cop out.

The Ugly Errors:
>Now that Young's done with the wife, will Young/TJ/Varro be the new Young/wife/Telford?
>The more I see of the bridge, the more I fear the writers will destroy it. Midway station was incredibly cool and they blew it up. The bridge is incredibly cool... I hope they leave the bridge alone.
>Greer. Geez. How frat boy.
>Where did all the scanning equipment come from to actually see blood cells flowing through veins?

Trial and Error... The Verdict:
Not guilty of being a bad episode.
Guilty of being one of the best episodes of the series so far.
Trial and Error passed the Kobayashi Maru!

Spoiler:

And did you SEE the space battles?!?!?!?!

[Shadow_7]

Just because two episodes have had dream sequences does not mean the next will. Assuming it to be so, again, is pessimism for the sake of pessimism. There's no logic to it except to be negative.

But it was two CONSEQUITIVE episodes. And probably ~80% stuff that never happened. Not that Time wasn't ~99% stuff that never happened. Factor in that this is episode 26 so 3/26 equals > 10% for the entire series. So likely IMO.

Spoiler:

Given the whole Twin Destiny's premise from comic con, not that last time we'll have stuff that never happened.

The "ship interfacing with his brain" really does bother me though

It bothers me too, but only because Young has never sat in the chair and interfaced with the ship in any way. So there's a gap of how is such comminication happening? Never fully sat in the interface chair. Hasn't sat in the captains chair on the bridge (yet). Unless Brody spiked his drink? Or he lucked out and picked the magic room as his quarters. Just weird and otherwise unexplained.

Otherwise a good episode. It would be nice to have flashes of the other sub plots, versus complete mystery. Curtis and Palmer? The faith crew? LA on Volcano Island? Telford and Browns? Surely more to make an episode about than just Youngs bad dreams.

[Mortock42]

It bothers me too, but only because Young has never sat in the chair and interfaced with the ship in any way. So there's a gap of how is such comminication happening? Never fully sat in the interface chair. Hasn't sat in the captains chair on the bridge (yet). Unless Brody spiked his drink? Or he lucked out and picked the magic room as his quarters. Just weird and otherwise unexplained.

Maybe Destiny is capable of detecting and monitoring whatever transmissions are occuring between the communication stones? And having been in contact with the crew (by merely being aboard the ship, and the instances when people got into the chair), maybe the ship found a way to transmit to their brains?

Also, as seen in the Ark of Truth (long before Destiny was even built), they had a way of making people "see" the truth; I'm sure they would have been more than capable of remotely influencing our dreams by the point Destiny was built. And in sensing Young's state of mind, and how he was becoming unable to deal with the reality of his situation, Destiny basically had to tell him in his dreams, the only way it could communicate with him, "Sometimes hard decisions must be made. That's life; deal with it and move on or everyone around you will suffer".

And as far as Chloe is concerned? I wonder if Destiny will ever sense her being a threat, as it had obviously been studied/attacked by the blue's before (and recently) and should eventually be able to figure out that Chloe was altered by them. If so? Maybe Destiny will go all "HAL" on Chloe to prevent her from unknowingly harming the crew or the ship. Eh, who knows!?

[Misfits]

Well, actually this proved my point. You said Rush can program rings around everybody except Eli, that is not true. Actually Rush didn't do it by his own, he had Brody's help, remember? Which suggest Brody may have the ability to find out what Rush did, further more it was a complicate work, Rush couldn't do by his own, he had to ask for Brody's help.

Actually, that is true. Eli has been the only one who has shown that he can figure out Rush's schemes. In 'Time', 'Divided', just the top off my head. I'm sure there were more instances.
As for Brody, all he was doing was monitoring the data flow into Rush in 'Human'. He was there because Rush was in the chair and he couldn't monitor it himself. The most likely scenario would be that Rush set it up and gave Brody specific instructions to what to watch and what buttons to push in case of A,B,C, etc.... where A,B.C, etc... were possible scenarios.
To me, Brody is more like a very smart handyman, with good knowledge of Ancient technology, like a jack of all trades, master of none.

Yes, Rush would sacrifice anyone to get what he want. But what I am saying is not someone, it is Rush himself. Would he be risk himself to get what he want? No, in "Life" he didn't sit by himself right?

And you have to remember the scene with Gloria at the end of 'Human'.

GLORIA (in a whisper): You're dying.
RUSH (looking down again): I know.
GLORIA: You'd rather die than fail? What have you become, Nicholas? The things you've done - it's not who you are; it's not you.

So, would he sacrifice himself, yes.

Dial the Ninth Chevron is quite a different situation. If he didn't dial and came back to earth, being failed to dail it, he would be taken off the project. It was like do it now or leave the project forever.

Actually, any concern about taken off the project before the dialing of the 9th chevron address didn't exist. I think he was concerned about not finding another Icarus type planet.

And now transfer data to Chloe and risk being caught, Young will lock him up like Chloe, do a test if he is turning to an alien too considering he was abducted by alien too. Besides the whole crew would see him as a betrayer, no people will help him any more. It is more like do it now and possibly leave the project forever, which is the only thing Rush actually afraid of.

Nobody trusts him already, no loss there. As for his possible transformation, there appears to be no indication the he has been affected in any manner like Chloe has been. No black outs, No Ancient or Blue Alien Writing, No advanced ability to solve equations, No change in his body appearance, etc... Furthermore, TJ could examine his blood and compare the results to Chloe's, to be certain, in fact that would be something they should do anyway.

[Misfits]

And yet again you miss the point entirely. When people sleepwalk, they carry out actions without being consciously aware of them. Same with Chloe. Her ability to do these things is no more proof of a second intelligence than O'Neill's actions.

And, yet again, you miss THE point. Chloe's activities are not self-induced. It is based on what the Blue Aliens did to her. In fact, this is a given, and you're coming up with the most incredible concoctions to validate your point of view, which is clearly wrong.

As is denying any evidence to stick to your "magic" theory. You simply do not want to admit being wrong at this point, and without any way to disprove the facts, you shun them and claim the blues are doing it through some techno hocus-pocus beyond our understanding. Sorry, doesn't work that way. TJ can and has identified a biological reaction to whatever agent is affecting Chloe's system, based on studies of similar pathogens. Same as has happened in Stargate dozens of times before. It's an infection, as is apparent by Chloe's reaction to it, and no matter how much you complain, that fact is set in stone.

Well, when a race is advanced to such a degree beyond our understanding, it would seem magical. And yes, until you can understand the Hocus and Pocus, and understand how it works, it might as well be hocus-pocus.
In another words, do you know if it is one agent or multiple agents? If it a single process or multiple processes? If it a single phase or multiple phases? Or a myriad of possible combination of all of the above?
I certainly don't and it has not been defined in ANY episodes.
Just to point to a single scene showing that TJ has been able to find a difference in Chloe's blood, and stating conclusively that this is factually this or that, would be inane.

[mi_guard]

Wedding band spinning. Young spins it in his quarters exactly like Cobb in Inception spun his totem to check if he was dreaming or awake. Given the date of Inception's release it's unlikely that it was an intentional reference, but man, it does seem like one in hindsight and I freaking loved it. Even the meaning (dream vs reality) fitt.

ETA: Rush sealing Young's command? Priceless.

Ah, that hint! now that you say! of course, hadn't got it while watching the episode

Personally while thought the episode didn't make leaps and bounds in terms of plot, I still enjoyed it, thanks to firstly the Space battles and secondly the revelation that Destiny was messing with people’s heads and seems to have its own agenda.

Yeah, looking forward to more of that

BTW,

Spoiler:

Chloe isn't the real Chloe and 'her' disguise is failing and it is changing back to original form, it just got all her braincontent copied and it thinks it is Chloe. Just my idea about her skin change.

Very interesting theory, but based on what I read about future episodes don't think it is going in that direction, but you never know, spoilers are often misleading. We'll see.

I really liked that episode, 8/10

Liked
Rush, he sit on the bridge chair like the king of the world (in the end I control the ship)
Destiny's way of reading the crews mind, creepy and interesting
Special Effects, always amazing (especially the part where Scott get´s pulled out in Space)

Fully agree on those points - they were just great

[Misfits]

And as far as Chloe is concerned? I wonder if Destiny will ever sense her being a threat, as it had obviously been studied/attacked by the blue's before (and recently) and should eventually be able to figure out that Chloe was altered by them. If so? Maybe Destiny will go all "HAL" on Chloe to prevent her from unknowingly harming the crew or the ship. Eh, who knows!?

I would put forth the theory that Destiny DEFINITIVELY knows of Chloe 's condition.
In fact, the whole simulation scenario was based on the Blue Aliens wanted her back, and in the third scenario, Destiny uses her transformation and learning of Destiny as the basis to enable the Blue Aliens in disabling the Destiny shields.

In fact, Destiny knowing so much detail of the crew's condition, leads me to believe that all that happened so far is not a stroke of luck.
12 hours out of FTL in 'Air', 11 hours in 'Water', 36+ hours in 'Time', etc...
I mean, come on. Once or twice is possible, but every single time?
This would suggest that Destiny has sensors in the ship that is incredibly sensitive.
It must have known the existence of 'Cloud aliens in 'Water'. In fact, it may have communicated with them of TJ's plan. To believe that every single one of the cloud Aliens would enter the water container that TJ was holding open is very convenient and suspicious.

[hercthx]

Kobayashi Maru!
indeed!!! big smily face!