"Structure" in the background radiation

[morbosfist]

I think you've failed to realize that it's not even "science fiction" if the "science" part is merely fantasy.

The background radiation is fantasy? Don't think so. The only fantasy is this deeper meaning, which they handwave on the spot as beyond our ability to detect. That's why it's science fiction.

That makes no sense, but whatever. I'm quite sure it does to you.

It's not that difficult a concept to understand. MST3K Mantra.

[Cylykon]

Maybe it means that 'operating instructions' for the universe are encoded into the high level structure of it.
Remember, Rush wasn't on about discovering who/what created the universe, but rather he was hoping to learn how the universe works to the point of being able to change/control it, somehow. What he's looking for is going far FAR beyond "sufficiently advanced technology" - I don't think Rush wants to merely play God. Maybe the Lucian Alliance stories about Destiny's mission we learned from Ginn aren't far off the mark.

Ok, like the writers, you're unclear on the concept of what the CMB is. I get it.

[Coronach]

I think you've failed to realize that it's not even "science fiction" if the "science" part is merely fantasy.

Science fiction has done this before and continues to do it. It isn't my fault that you're either a) new the genre or b) selectively forgetting the countless times this has happened in past science fiction.

As well, "fiction" vs "fantasy"....then call it "science fantasy" for all I care. Semantics is stupid, and I won't engage in such a silly argument.

[PG15]

That "structure" was created before even stable hydrogen atoms formed and fills the entire universe. Whatever Destiny is looking for, isn't going to be made out of matter and "findable" because it would be EVERYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE. It would be akin to the speculatively ambiguous Faith Planet "aliens/supreme beings".

Indeed. It's pretty logical then that Destiny is going about her mission by travelling across the Universe, no? I mean, if the evidence for the structure is everywhere, then travelling across it as much as possible is as good a method as any to trying to understand it.

[Cylykon]

The background radiation is fantasy? Don't think so. The only fantasy is this deeper meaning, which they handwave on the spot as beyond our ability to detect. That's why it's science fiction.

It's not that difficult a concept to understand. MST3K Mantra.

No, thinking that there's something to travel to to discover is fantasy. From Wikipedia: "According to the Big Bang model, the radiation from the sky we measure today comes from a spherical surface called the surface of last scattering. This represents the collection of spots in space at which the decoupling event is believed to have occurred, less than 400,000 years after the Big Bang, and at a point in time such that the photons from that distance have just reached observers." All there is to the CMB is the energy variations (from inflated quantum fluctuations) that were left over a full 400,000 years after inflation. That's science. Learn the difference.

[morbosfist]

No, thinking that there's something to travel to to discover is fantasy. From Wikipedia: "According to the Big Bang model, the radiation from the sky we measure today comes from a spherical surface called the surface of last scattering. This represents the collection of spots in space at which the decoupling event is believed to have occurred, less than 400,000 years after the Big Bang, and at a point in time such that the photons from that distance have just reached observers." All there is to the CMB is the energy variations (from inflated quantum fluctuations) that were left over a full 400,000 years after inflation. That's science. Learn the difference.

For heaven's sake...

Look, I'll try to make this simple. In the real world, we do not have the following: intergalactic spaceships, faster-than-light propulsion, subspace communication, body-swapping stones, teleportation, mind-controlling parasites with a god complex, energy beings, psychic powers, devices that make wormholes, and the list goes on ad infinitum. So, in this series with all those things and more, you are offended by this and nothing else? Real science would never allow half of this as we understand it. Yes, the whole deeper meaning doesn't jive with current science. It's not supposed to. It's science fiction. That is the point. Get it? It uses science but also takes liberties with it to tell a story. You're complaining about the core tenant of all science fiction.

[Cylykon]

Science fiction has done this before and continues to do it. It isn't my fault that you're either a) new the genre or b) selectively forgetting the countless times this has happened in past science fiction.

As well, "fiction" vs "fantasy"....then call it "science fantasy" for all I care. Semantics is stupid, and I won't engage in such a silly argument.

Whatever. I clearly made my argument as "science" vs "fantasy".

[Eternal Density]

Ok, like the writers, you're unclear on the concept of what the CMB is. I get it.

I was talking about Stargate Universe actually, not what the CMB really is.
Now please stop derailing the thread.

No, thinking that there's something to travel to to discover is fantasy. From Wikipedia: "According to the Big Bang model, the radiation from the sky we measure today comes from a spherical surface called the surface of last scattering. This represents the collection of spots in space at which the decoupling event is believed to have occurred, less than 400,000 years after the Big Bang, and at a point in time such that the photons from that distance have just reached observers." All there is to the CMB is the energy variations (from inflated quantum fluctuations) that were left over a full 400,000 years after inflation. That's science. Learn the difference.

We know the difference! Seriously, have you forgotten that this is a science fiction show? It's all about borrowing ideas from science (or in this case, one model of how the universe might work) and spinning it off into an entertaining idea.

Whatever. I clearly made my argument as "science" vs "fantasy".

There's science and there's fantasy. But I'm not seeing a "vs" anywhere. We know that SGU isn't real, so stop arguing about nothing!

Why so serious?

[Cylykon]

For heaven's sake... Real science would never allow half of this as we understand it.

Well, that is certainly opinion. As was stated very clearly earlier, my complaint is with blatant misrepresentation of physics. SGU's use of the CMB is akin to the blatant misrepresentation of physics in Star Trek 11's explanation and use of "red matter". It's fantasy, because it just isn't science!

[Cylykon]

(or in this case, one model of how the universe might work)

Except that the writers didn't even get the model right if they think there's a pattern in there that implies an intelligence. The temperature differences in the CMB represent QUANTUM fluctuations. Do you know what that means, quantum? I had two semesters of it in college, so I do.

[Eternal Density]

Well, that is certainly opinion. As was stated very clearly earlier, my complaint is with blatant misrepresentation of physics. SGU's use of the CMB is akin to the blatant misrepresentation of physics in Star Trek 11's explanation and use of "red matter". It's fantasy, because it just isn't science!

How is making traversable wormholes at the press of a button any less a blatant misrepresentation of physics?
I think the only difference here is that wormholes are commonly used this way in sci-fi, while the CMB is not. To me, both are fair game for sci-fi to use in whatever manner they please.
Are you really so worried that people who watch SGU will think "I know that stuff about stargates and FTL travel and instantaneous mindswapping from the other side of the universe is just made up, but what they said about the CMB has to be true." ?

Except that the writers didn't even get the model right if they think there's a pattern in there that implies an intelligence. The temperature differences in the CMB represent QUANTUM fluctuations. Do you know what that means, quantum? I had two semesters of it in college, so I do.

*sigh*
The writers don't think there's a pattern there that implies an intelligence. They are exploring the question of "what if there was a pattern, in our fictional world, and what would that imply and how could it get there?"

And of course I know what quantum means, duh! I read most of the quantum physics related books at my local library during highschool, for fun, and studied the principles behind various designs of quantum computers at university. (Sorry but your tone of superiority is making me snarky.)

[PG15]

Except that the writers didn't even get the model right if they think there's a pattern in there that implies an intelligence. The temperature differences in the CMB represent QUANTUM fluctuations. Do you know what that means, quantum? I had two semesters of it in college, so I do.

Did you miss the part where Rush said that those patterns were undetectable using our instruments? We're not talking about the Ancients pulling up COBE's, WMAP's, and Planck's CMB maps and saying there are messages in those green, blue, and red blobs, we're saying the Ancients pulled up their SuperMega CMB Investigator 6500 data and found that, hey, there's structure there finer than what we found using SuperMega CMB Investigator 6400, which was probably a gazillion times more powerful than Planck.

Hey, I had two semesters of quantum too - actually, one semester I took 2 quantum courses (that basically talked about the same thing) at the same time, just for fun. I know what quantum fluctuations are, but that's completely beside the point. Our data and models say that the density distributions are caused by quantum fluctuations - the Ancients' evidently told a different story, and considering how much more advanced they are, I think it's totally possible for their instruments to find stuff that ours can't.

[morbosfist]

Well, that is certainly opinion. As was stated very clearly earlier, my complaint is with blatant misrepresentation of physics. SGU's use of the CMB is akin to the blatant misrepresentation of physics in Star Trek 11's explanation and use of "red matter". It's fantasy, because it just isn't science!

Look, it comes down to a very simple point: are you willing to suspend your disbelief and go with it? You clearly aren't, and thus we aren't going to go anywhere. You see this use of CMB and it bothers you because, as you see it, they've represented it wrong (which, incidentally, they have not done as you think they have). So long as this is true, it's a stalemate.

Incidentally:

Except that the writers didn't even get the model right if they think there's a pattern in there that implies an intelligence. The temperature differences in the CMB represent QUANTUM fluctuations. Do you know what that means, quantum? I had two semesters of it in college, so I do.

They never mention temperature differences. Rush only mentions that this pattern is beyond the ability of human science to detect. He never says specifically where it's buried, just that it is. This is a cue to the viewer. It means "yeah, it's not real science, go with it." Nothing about Rush's statement specifically violates any known aspect of CMB.

[Eternal Density]

Incidentally:

They never mention temperature differences. Rush only mentions that this pattern is beyond the ability of human science to detect. He never says specifically where it's buried, just that it is. This is a cue to the viewer. It means "yeah, it's not real science, go with it." Nothing about Rush's statement specifically violates any known aspect of CMB.

Good point, all this discussion about temperatures is a Red Herring.

[lumacman]

Cylykon,

What this really sounds like to me is agression towards what could be interperated as the writers bringing in a religious element to the show.

if there is structure or a pattern, that implies order. as we understand it order does not rise from chaos. order turns to chaos over time. if there is order from the very start of the universe, then one must ask the question what provided that order?

at its heart this is good and well thought out science fiction. the whole point of science fiction is to evaluate the nature of humanity aginst some futureistic story that bends what we define as reality.

right now we look at this raditaion and see nothing but chaos and randomness. thats science fact. (for now, a good and real scientist is always seeking and questioning everything.) the fiction is the acients found something we currently cant. they built lots of ships to learn more about it somehow. we are now along for the ride, and we watch a story unfold with people like us stuck in this fictional world that is just slightly off from what we know to be science fact. humanity, faith, religion, morals, ethics, all of that well play in good science fiction because, again the point of it is to take a look at what we are in the midst of a story.