'The Greater Good' (207) General Discussion

[Misfits]

Because she was transmitting through the Kino the same way Rush's image is.

Not entirely happy with the explanation, however, will go with it for now.

[Ian-S]

imho that was a continuity error to make the scene dramatic, the Kino was on the ship with Rush transmitting back to Destiny, and iirc she was using a radio/ship communications to talk to Rush the other way.

So at the very least her reply should have delayed or muffled, instead of perfectly tuned, due to being transmitted to Rush by radio, then back to Destiny by the Kino.

Just another one of those "suspend belief" things you have to ignore to enjoy the story unless Kino's have two way communication, in which case, where was her microphone?

[morbosfist]

Rush switched over to the ship's communications right after he got power working. There wouldn't be a delay. "Radio" was just shorthand.

[blackluster]

Actually, by then they were on ship to ship comms... so to me the kino should NOT have recorded it.

The Kino seems to pickup ambient sounds as in that ep where Cain happens to overhear how Lt James likes him. The comm setup Rush had going had him speaking aloud and hearing Mandy without a headset (since Young later overhears them). If someone in the adjacent area could overhear their convo, the Kino would certainly record any sound in its proximity as well. Rush only cuts the feed when Mandy confirms that she is on the bridge so Eli would have had video data right up until that point, which includes everything Rush and Mandy spoke about in the control cluster.

So at the very least her reply should have delayed or muffled, instead of perfectly tuned, due to being transmitted to Rush by radio, then back to Destiny by the Kino.

Not really. Her voice wouldn't have reason to be muffled since the Kino has already been proven to have very high fidelity as idle conversation in a room can easily be picked up even from a few meters away (they often use this kino feature to effectively spy). In the episode Cloverdale, the Kino was even able to pick up the sound the plants made as it flew pretty high overhead. Delay may have become a factor if they were further apart but I don't think they ever really were. When Destiny finally gets after them Mandy says it will take them about an hour to catchup. Since the alien ship only fired a short burn, both ships were probably moving relatively slowly so the distance never got so great as to make round trip delay a factor

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

The Greater Good Review [SGU 207]

By xxxevilgrinxxx | Published: November 15, 2010 (crossposted at my personal blog)

The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions

Throughout this series, the idea of ‘the greater good’ has played a part, both as actual dialogue and also as an underlying message. One mostly stated aloud by Dr. Rush but often echoed by Col. Young and usually in reference to actions that will affect the larger number of people aboard the Destiny.

Where the notion of the greater good gets dicey is in who decides what’s good for everyone and this is where it tends to fail as a method of operation. All throughout history there have been people that have stepped forward onto the stage and done horrible things in the name of the greater good. Whether they have won or lost and what side they were on in relation to “us” has decided whether they were “right”, “heroes” or “monsters” but all of them at some point in their own stories chose their actions with the notion of the greater good in mind, free will of the led be damned.

In previous incarnations, Stargate gave us gods and had us question them. In the current incarnation, Stargate gives us fate, free will and yes, Destiny itself, and has us question that. There are those that will choose to surrender their free will to the notion of the greater good, as Caine and those that stayed with him chose to do in “Faith” and echoed in “Intervention”. As terrible, as misguided, as uninformed as I may believe that choice was, at least it was a choice.

One place where both the “Faith” entity and Dr. Rush intersect is that neither are willing to divulge much information about the choices, and even less about the information that led there. The Planet Builders may well be truly alien and therefore problems in understanding may be explainable but Rush has no such cover. He is intelligent but he has not come so far that he is a being above the others. His good intentions, as noble as they appear to be to his own mind, barely cover the arrogance behind them and they certainly don’t cover the deceit he has visited upon the crew, mostly Col. Young. In his claims to act for the greater good of the crew, without telling them, Rush has put the rest of the crew – their desires for their own fate, their identities as people in their own right, even their ideas – not only out of his mind, but beneath him. He infantalizes them, which is no different than what previous “gods” have done in the Stargate franchise.

Rush is no “god” and all his juggling can’t keep his deceit from the rest of the crew and he stretches credulity in his efforts to continue to hide knowledge from the others. From a viewer’s point, this simply could not have gone on much longer. In his efforts, he brings aboard the one person that he trusts, Amanda Perry, to continue with his lies in his stead. It’s not a role that she takes on easily; she doesn’t like to lie to the others and if circumstances were different, if it weren’t a matter of saving lives, I wonder if she would have done it at all.

There’s a price to be paid for all these machinations on Rush’s part in that it sets Amanda Perry, in Ginn’s body, on a collision course with Simeon. Rush has admitted to making mistakes and he has been confronted with those mistakes by Col. Young. Other than getting beaten by the volatile Col. Young or having a hard time sleeping due to a guilty conscience, his mistakes haven’t come back to affect him in a way that would make his behaviour change. He hasn’t paid a price beyond the condemnation and anger of his fellow crew, something he was willing to endure if it gave him the room to work in peace. With injury or even death coming to Amanda Perry at the end of this episode, will he finally have to pay a personal price for his lies?

In this episode, Eli and Ginn have been working on the data from the failed attempt to open a wormhole from within a star. Also, Col. Young mentions, on the alien ship, that the concept of the mission had better not be one of Rush’s hoaxes. Both of these are important in that it shows that there is another sort of fallout from Rush’s secrecy: that when the truth finally comes out, it won’t be believed.

The notion of a message left over from the creation of the universe may well be the truth but in coming from Rush, a man that has lied about so very much, how is it to be taken at face value? Eli is right to be angry but in Eli, the crew have a brilliant scientist that will share the knowledge, making the crew’s fate a matter of informed consent.

In doubting Rush, Col. Young hasn’t had to travel very far but it does make any sort of respect or possible friendship “a lot of work”. And that friendship is needed. For all of Rush’s machinations, when he is being blunt and forthright, what he has to say is something Col. Young needs to hear, especially about his ability to lead. While I believe that the colonel has every ability to lead, Young doesn’t fully share that belief and with the knowledge that Rush was the one to have the ship jump in the last episode, Young’s trust in himself will have to rest on his own abilities rather than the whim of the ship. Perhaps this is as it should be and I hope that as Young continues to dry out, that he will take on the mission at hand rather than continue to look back, towards Earth.

What is and continues to be true is that Rush and Young cannot be working at cross purposes. One way or another, they must work with each other. I believe that Young will continue to “trust but verify”, having Eli check on Rush’s work and perhaps keep the man on the straight and narrow, but once the current crisis is over, will Rush continue to work with Young? That remains to be seen.

Rating: 9 1/2 out of 10.

[Misfits]

The Greater Good Review [SGU 207]

By xxxevilgrinxxx | Published: November 15, 2010 (crossposted at my personal blog)

The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions

In his claims to act for the greater good of the crew, without telling them, Rush has put the rest of the crew – their desires for their own fate, their identities as people in their own right, even their ideas – not only out of his mind, but beneath him. He infantalizes them, which is no different than what previous “gods” have done in the Stargate franchise.

As we have seen in Stargate, as well as in real life, those who perceive themselves above everyone else will not change, no matter what proof they're shown. They have to be stopped, because they will never stop themselves.
It is the arrogance of Rush to believe that, after all the mistakes that he has made, after all the lies that he has contrived, after all the secretive actions that he has taken, his 'word' is anything more than just wasted breath.

In his efforts, he brings aboard the one person that he trusts, Amanda Perry, to continue with his lies in his stead. It’s not a role that she takes on easily; she doesn’t like to lie to the others and if circumstances were different, if it weren’t a matter of saving lives, I wonder if she would have done it at all.

There’s a price to be paid for all these machinations on Rush’s part in that it sets Amanda Perry, in Ginn’s body, on a collision course with Simeon. Rush has admitted to making mistakes and he has been confronted with those mistakes by Col. Young. Other than getting beaten by the volatile Col. Young or having a hard time sleeping due to a guilty conscience, his mistakes haven’t come back to affect him in a way that would make his behaviour change. He hasn’t paid a price beyond the condemnation and anger of his fellow crew, something he was willing to endure if it gave him the room to work in peace. With injury or even death coming to Amanda Perry at the end of this episode, will he finally have to pay a personal price for his lies?

The price being the last vestige of humanity left in Rush. This will lead him to be more callous, more arrogant, and more determined to pursue his 'DREAM'.

In this episode, Eli and Ginn have been working on the data from the failed attempt to open a wormhole from within a star. Also, Col. Young mentions, on the alien ship, that the concept of the mission had better not be one of Rush’s hoaxes. Both of these are important in that it shows that there is another sort of fallout from Rush’s secrecy: that when the truth finally comes out, it won’t be believed.

Provided that it is the full truth. Pretty convenient that he had a ready made answer he could brandish at a moments notice, just like his 'Thinking Room'.
Like old saying goes, applied here, 'How do you know Rush is lying? His lips are moving!'

Eli is right to be angry but in Eli, the crew have a brilliant scientist that will share the knowledge, making the crew’s fate a matter of informed consent.

And this is exactly the reason why Rush won't stop his behavior. Rush, at his core, doesn't believe that the crew, if informed, will consent.
This is precisely the reason why Rush decided to enlist Col. Young's alliance. In Young, Rush sees someone who he can manipulate. Rush knew that when the secret of the bridge is revealed, the crew will be against pursuing anything he wanted to do. Never mind the fact that he dialed the 9th chevron address that stranded 80+ people on a ship billions of light years from Earth, or the fact that he failed to disclose the Alien tracking device implanted in his chest prior to the mutiny, keeping the bridge a secret, and his 'mistakes' leading to the loss of the shuttle and the death of Riley, should be the last straw. And Rush being a chess player, would have seen that coming.

Perhaps this is as it should be and I hope that as Young continues to dry out, that he will take on the mission at hand rather than continue to look back, towards Earth.

As intriguing this 'mission' may be, the primary question would be as to whether the 'mission' is achievable. As Col. Young has said before, 'These are the WRONG people.' His primary mission is to get these people home. To ask them to partake on a mission that he doesn't even know if it is achievable, that could take years, decades or longer, would be un-imaginable. Especially for Wray who wants to go back to Sharon as quickly as possible, it would be a non-starter.

What is and continues to be true is that Rush and Young cannot be working at cross purposes. One way or another, they must work with each other. I believe that Young will continue to “trust but verify”, having Eli check on Rush’s work and perhaps keep the man on the straight and narrow, but once the current crisis is over, will Rush continue to work with Young? That remains to be seen.

Rush and Young will forever work on cross purposes because they have different goals.
In fact, trying to work with each other is looking backwards. Like a married couple trying to salvage their marriage after having grown apart and trust had been lost, it is a noble but futile goal.
Destiny is not big enough for both of them, and it will never be.

[Replicator Todd]

Wow. Very ENT: Shuttlepod One.
Thank the coherent structure in cosmic background radiation the episode didn't turn out that way.

I liked that episode of ENT.

[nx01a]

I liked that episode of ENT.

There're some things about characters we really don't need to know.

[garhkal]

I'l agree it did sound convienient he had this explanation already there. BUT you have to admit it makes sense when ONLY one ship was sent out..

[Misfits]

I'l agree it did sound convienient he had this explanation already there. BUT you have to admit it makes sense when ONLY one ship was sent out..

If the mission goal is to gather data and investigate cosmic background noise, why send several seeder ships ahead of Destiny?

[Artemis-Neith]

If the mission goal is to gather data and investigate cosmic background noise, why send several seeder ships ahead of Destiny?

The fact, that the seed-ships don't put gates on random planets, but only on those who are - in some kind - useable for the ancients/human crew of Destiny, should have a meaning.

The ship was meant to get a crew at some point to fulfill the mission. So, I guess, the mission requires a crew, and is not only to gather data.

Just a thought.

[Misfits]

The fact, that the seed-ships don't put gates on random planets, but only on those who are - in some kind - useable for the ancients/human crew of Destiny, should have a meaning.

The ship was meant to get a crew at some point to fulfill the mission. So, I guess, the mission requires a crew, and is not only to gather data.

Just a thought.

If the mission was to put gates on planets, the Ancients would have sent out hundreds of seeder ships, not just several. That negates this theory.

As for gathering data, a mission length of million+ years? In my view, this is THE troubling part of Destiny's mission, as defined by Rush. We're taking about million+ years. That's a looong time. And the seeder ships have been at it even longer.

If the Ancients had planned to come to Destiny thousands of years ago, let's say 10,000 years ago, that would mean that they sent the ships with the knowledge that these ships will be on their journey at least 990,000+ years.

Investigating cosmic background noise may have been a secondary mission objective, however, there has to be something else.

[Artemis-Neith]

If the mission was to put gates on planets, the Ancients would have sent out hundreds of seeder ships, not just several. That negates this theory.

Where in my post I said "he mission was to put gates on planets", and nothing but that, as you obviously understood it?

Seeding gates means maybe (cos we don't know yet exactly) nothing else than to support a crew during (the last part of) the mission.

As for gathering data, a mission length of million+ years? In my view, this is THE troubling part of Destiny's mission, as defined by Rush. We're taking about million+ years. That's a looong time. And the seeder ships have been at it even longer.

If the Ancients had planned to come to Destiny thousands of years ago, let's say 10,000 years ago, that would mean that they sent the ships with the knowledge that these ships will be on their journey at least 990,000+ years.

If you think about the huge distance Destiny traveled through the universe in between, would it not mean they had to take some time? If it seems important enough to the Ancients to know more about the phenomenon, I guess, such a mission might be thinkable, and time might be a second guess. So, yes, why not to plan such a looooong mission.

Investigating cosmic background noise may have been a secondary mission objective, however, there has to be something else.

Why must it be secondary? Why can it not be a part of the mission? A part of the mission like the crew, Destiny was build for. And I think the mission is to know as much as possible about the Structure in the background radiation. Whatever the Ancients thought this knowledge would bring them, it seems to be very important to them. Important enough to waste some seed ships and Destiny.

[Misfits]

Where in my post I said "he mission was to put gates on planets", and nothing but that, as you obviously understood it?

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you said it. I was just theorizing and ruling it out.

If you think about the huge distance Destiny traveled through the universe in between, would it not mean they had to take some time? If it seems important enough to the Ancients to know more about the phenomenon, I guess, such a mission might be thinkable, and time might be a second guess. So, yes, why not to plan such a looooong mission.

And that is precisely the problem. Did the Ancients envision 1 million year journey, 2 million year journey, or longer? The crew happens to come aboard at this particular time, and there's no indication that it is the perfect time.
If the Ancients meant to come to Destiny thousands of years ago, should the Destiny journey be over already? Based on the seeder ships still traveling ahead of Destiny, this would not be the case.

Why must it be secondary? Why can it not be a part of the mission? A part of the mission like the crew, Destiny was build for. And I think the mission is to know as much as possible about the Structure in the background radiation. Whatever the Ancients thought this knowledge would bring them, it seems to be very important to them. Important enough to waste some seed ships and Destiny.

I don't believe it was the primary mission. It doesn't fit. And if not primary, then, secondary, perhaps.

[Artemis-Neith]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you said it. I was just theorizing and ruling it out.

And that is precisely the problem. Did the Ancients envision 1 million year journey, 2 million year journey, or longer? The crew happens to come aboard at this particular time, and there's no indication that it is the perfect time.
If the Ancients meant to come to Destiny thousands of years ago, should the Destiny journey be over already? Based on the seeder ships still traveling ahead of Destiny, this would not be the case.

I don't believe it was the primary mission. It doesn't fit. And if not primary, then, secondary, perhaps.

I do nothing else but put some things together we got so far, try make some sense of it, as you do. What did we get so far?

Once upon the time the Ancients launched a ship: Destiny, build for a crew of some kind, send out into space a very long time ago. In front of that ship seed ships were sent. As we've seen in Air II (iirc) both ship types follow a straight course through the universe probably somewhere to a far region of the universe, we not know yet. That's so far all we get to know about the 9th chevron mystery, left on a data base of Atlantis, long ago, by said Ancients.

Now, after the master code of the ship is broken, we learn that Destiny had a mission, and that that mission has something to do with some "Structure in the background radiation" the Ancients found at some point of their history. This discovery was important enough to start the mission the ship is still on, after million(s) of years. As far as we know yet, the Ancients didn't end the mission during their life period, and for whatever reason, they didn't stop the ship(s), after their ascension. At that point of the story we don't know, whether it was not longer of interest for them, or the other way around, it was so important, that they want to share that knowledge with their descendants.

But what I truly believe in, is that the writers of the story want us to bring somewhere, and make sense to all of this. For that I'm curious enough to see where we'll go in the future, and I hope to see at the end of season 5 the ultimate conclusion of Destiny's mission, and the destiny of their new crew as well.