'The Greater Good' (207) General Discussion

[garhkal]

The Kino, at the very least, would have informed them if the atmosphere didn't fit. You have to write off similar atmosphere as suspension of disbelief.

There is that, but i feel it was cause the Browns (Awakening) also breathed the same mix of atmosphere, ergo the ship was configured to that.

It's not just Young. Eli suddenly grew suspicious (now, of all times, lol), and everyone else has been wondering what Rush is up to all this time. Someone should have said, "Hey, you know, Rush has been pretty secretive; maybe we should, I dunno, find out what he's up to?"

It's amusing that, the very fact that they weren't smart enough to do this, totally justified Rush's position on keeping the bridge secret. No one else cracked the code or could muster the brain cells to even question what Rush might be up to all this time, after all.

They did (especially young and Brody) but none pushed the Issue.

How does he know that she hasn't spilled the beans already? If she has, then killing her is pointless. At this point, the smartest move is to play along and wait for a chance to seize absolute power over Destiny.

Maybe he is not going in there to kill Ginn, but since he knows Perry is in her body, AND the ship just did a lot of piloting, he feels they cracked the master code and so wants to interrogate her.

The sequence where Young bounces off Destiny's hull and is about to fly off was rather suspenseful. Coming to his rescue should definitely buy Rush a few brownie points with both him and the crew for a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were all still very suspicious of him. Though I do at least hope that the dynamic between Rush and Young enters another phase. I don't expect them to become total BFFs, but something should change. It's time for something new, methinks.

Judging by the nod Young gave rush right afterward i do think there was a softening of his hate of Rush there.. and a subtle understanding and Emphasis of Rush's "we have to work together" comment.

These posts are so adorable.

I am almost wanting to say something on the lines of "don't let the door" (you can fill in the rest), but would rather not do something to get me banned.

I'm really glad Eli discovered the bridge first among the non Rush/Perry crew. Math Boy and Kino Boy combined to create Awesome Man, and good on him. I was worried that Brody and Volker were just going to randomly find it one day or something, but Eli came through and probably worked out Rush's equations faster than Perry did

He is math boy..

Simeon NOT being confined to his quarters after his confrontation with Ginn/Perry was irrational, IMHO.

I am surprised Greer wasn't glued to his ass like white on rice after their run in earlier.

And what is Rush's driving passion for the 9th chevron? Was it to find ascenscion so that he can reunite with his wife? (That's assuming that Gloria Rush did ascend after death).

We know when they ascend that they can chose when to decend. maybe he felt if he could, he could time hop back before her death and decend....

It makes me want to see the next ep even more, because I cared for those 2 characters and want to see vengeance ( as painfully as possible )!

There are few baddies in the SGverse i would wish a wraith to feed on, but he is getting there...

I've been a big fan of the Young and Rush drama for this series..

It's a lot more likeable than the bromance of Shep/mccay@!

So - why exactly did Greer have to step in when Simeon was harassing Ginn? He had a GUARD for Gods sakes who just stood there and did nothing. Just so Greer could have a big tough guy scene? It was weak. And Simeon just walking around the ship at the end? I hope there is a believable explanation.

Both Ginn/perry and Simeon had one, but neither said or did diddly squat. Makes me wonder if they were told to stand/watch but do nothing.

If anything, this episode shows just how resolute the Ancients were in making scientific discoveries. I wonder though, after they achieved ascension, did they find the answer to the question Destiny was created to discover?
I imagine if they did, and they pretty much knew everything and had nothing else to discover, they would be pretty bored. Siting around in a diner might then be the only thing left they have to do with their time.....

Either they did, or they realised it was petty to be so obsessed..

I suspect that Rush didn't tell Young everything and is still withholding some information.

Being how close he was to dying (again) i think he came fully clean...

As far as progression, we're seeing Rush seemingly do the same things that one can assume were similarly done by that guy in WoO but that because Rush is the focus and the other guy isn't, we're getting far more story out of Rush. But the overall idea seems to be the same.

His wife is dead. Dead. Dead. Dead. I can't imagine that an intelligent man like that would think that his current obsession would bring her back. But it does seem like that's the case sometimes.

Well, he does seem to be akin to that scientist from WoO, so it would not be out of the window for him to be doing that.

And next episode..

Spoiler:

We are going to see a really ruthless bad guy in action!

So more rush then

Let's see. Of all the persons on Destiny and Earth, he chose Dr. Amanda Perry to pilot Destiny.
A grown woman who's been a quadriplegic since 9 years old, who had only 3 weeks of full body movement control several month ago. Someone who has never flown anything in her life? Who's ability to move is based on blowing into a wheelchair?
She already messed up the initial approach to the alien ship, and the second time was almost as bad.

From what we saw she had use of her hands back there. BUT i do agree it made a strange choice to pilot the ship.

Anyway, now that the rest of the crew has access to the bridge, I foresee Eli (and maybe Brody) becoming a very strong, central character. His hands were tied before, but now that he he has access to Destiny's bridge, performing the occasional math problem and making kino-sodes will the the least that he will be capable of doing. Lets just hope this drama with Ginn won't provide too much of a distraction for him...

It would make sense now that math boy is on the bridge for him to get better. But i forsee a backslide of his own (akin to youngs) after Ginn is no more.

I want to know why the other LA didn't intervene with Simeon? I'm sure they could tell he disagreed with cooperating with earth, so why not "take care" of him to prevent the actions of one of their members from ruing all of their credibility with the crew? It will be interesting to see if Young allows any of the LA to help track Simeon next week...

Maybe they don't know. Or were not in a position to do anything. Varro is the only other one we have seen even do any significant stuff.

WE.. now down with everything up to page 10.

[morbosfist]

The analogy was faulty. There was no deceit in inviting a person to dinner.
Rush lied and schemed to get Dr. Perry to Destiny.
I never said someone else might or might not have died.
I only said that Rush's scheme got Dr. Perry killed.

But Rush is not in control of the circumstances under which she died. Again, you are blaming him for the actions of someone he could not control. If you invited someone to dinner and they were killed by a drunk driver, by your logic they must be at fault. If you do not accept this, then you deny your own logic.

Obviously, people have to go to the restroom, eat, etc...
However, of all the instances that has been shown so far, unless a person has a specific reason to be on Destiny, they don't wander around. Is there positive proof that they are confined to the stone room? No. However, it's the only thing that have been shown so far and seems to be the most reasonable protocol.

Telford wandered, and was not there for any specific reason. Telford shows your rule doesn't fit.

You could blame a whole bunch of people.
Varro could be blamed,
Young could be blamed,
Greer could be blamed, etc...
But, in the end, Rush schemed, as it turns out furtively, and Perry dies.
Just for a moment consider how things would have turned out if Rush had told the truth.
Ginn may still be killed by Simeon, but Perry would still be alive.

So Rush is the only one at fault despite Simeon's guards being incompetent, Wray failing to consider Simeon's obvious hostility, and Greer likewise not doing anything about Simeon's behavior? Double standard.

[Misfits]

Even if the character of Ginn is around 20 - so what? It's not like she's being portrayed as a 12 year old. There's nothing criminal here. As for her being Perry at the moment, it's Perry that Rush is fond of and, given the character of Rush, I really doubt the outer appearance matters to him all that much. After all, that love was born long before Perry could be in the body of anyone else. These are all consenting adults and this is fiction in any case. I don't really see what the big foofarah is

Neither do I.
On a separate note, what are all the Rush apologists going to say now that Rush admitted that Riley's death was due to his mistake?
I remember post after post blaming Young for sending the shuttle, for suffocating Riley, and everything else they can muster up, and it wasn't Rush's fault because he didn't do any of the above.
And, in this episode, Rush admits his mistakes. Isn't this ironic?

[garhkal]

What i noticed was that Rush is on the verge of being a guest on one of those 'To Catch A Predator' specials. How old was that woman he was making out with? 16? 17? And I'm not talking about the smart quadrapalegic scientist. She was in Ginn's body, and although on TV we see the older woman from earth, Rush would've seen the same teen-aged redhead that everyone new was involved with Eli.

That's just creepy.

The guy is pushing 3 times her age and was moments away from breaking more than a couple of laws depending on what state you live it.

Being there are MANY cases irl of 17-18 yr old lasses shacking up with 50+ yr old guys, (gold digger syndrome) it is not that outrageous. And i would put rush more in his mid 40s.

Err.. Julie the actress playing Ginn is 30 and Bobby is 49. Assuming that both characters share the actors age, there is no reason to call Chris Hansen. Also I doubt Rush knew about Eli and Ginn, the man is pretty oblivious to anything not ship related. Was it inappropriate, yes but I don't think it was done out of malice.

Plus he has kept himself out of the loop for gawd knows how long in regards to everyone elses' personal life, i can easily see him not knowing Eli/Ginn were an item.

Perry/Wray was very soon after Human and he in fact had just lost his wife over again -so he really was not in the mood ....

Plus he knows/works with Wray (and even had a command stint with her), where as with Ginn is still (from what i have seen) relatively unknown to him.

>Eli chewing Perry out about the rights concerning using other people's bodies.

Which is kind of ironic since he and Chloe went out getting DRUNK in someone elses..

I don't think Ginn consented to anything other than switching bodies so someone could come help out with a critical emergency. I doubt they told her that her body would be used to help alleviate Rush's mid-life crisis...

D

The element 'handwavium' gets used a lot in regards to what htye agree to do in the reverse situation, so why not this side. Remember her and Wray did say she has been fully briefed on the stones.

If they ran a red light, they are to blame. No amount of emergency justifies that type of stupidity.

When you get behind the wheel of a car, YOU are responsible for your driving.

Simeon is responsible for his murder, no one else. We can assign some blame if a guard was negligent (no evidence of that yet), but only he is to blame.

Yu;. And if it was that kind of emergency that required you to rush, damn the lights/signs, it would also have been the type you would have called 911 for.

Ok. Let's say your girlfriend/fiance/wife called you and said there is a criminal in the house, and very soon, he'll break down the door and get to you. And, he might rape you and/or kill you.
You're going to tell me that you would obey road rules in such an emergency?
I don't know of anyone who would.

No but i would be calling the cops as well. BUT still, you rushing over, ignoring lights etc and getting killed cause of it is NOT cause of her action. YOU made the decision to come over, YOU made the decision to speed/run lights.

Perry didn't realize that mentioning the fact that Ginn was on Earth was something she shouldn't have revealed to Simeon, heck, she didn't even know who Simeon is.

Which then aleviates rush as being wrong here, since it was HER saying what she did to Simeon, that made him think he needs to go kill!

[Misfits]

But Rush is not in control of the circumstances under which she died. Again, you are blaming him for the actions of someone he could not control. If you invited someone to dinner and they were killed by a drunk driver, by your logic they must be at fault. If you do not accept this, then you deny your own logic.

The LOGIC is quite simple. Rush lied. Perry died.

Telford wandered, and was not there for any specific reason. Telford shows your rule doesn't fit.

Telford is a different case all by himself. Really don't want to spend a full page explaining the obvious.
Everybody else, besides Telford, don't wander.

So Rush is the only one at fault despite Simeon's guards being incompetent, Wray failing to consider Simeon's obvious hostility, and Greer likewise not doing anything about Simeon's behavior? Double standard.

Was there a lot of factors and circumstances that contributed to the events that transpired? Definite yes. However, bottom line, Rush schemed, lied, and Perry died.

I'm done explaining this point. Who knows, maqybe Rush will have another moment of clarity in the next episode and admit his culpability for Perry's death. Just like he admitted to Riley's death in this episode.

How ironic that the character himself admits his mistake while all Rush apologists can't admit to the truth.

[morbosfist]

The LOGIC is quite simple. Rush lied. Perry died.

Either you admit that the person doing the inviting is responsible or your logic is faulty.

Telford is a different case all by himself. Really don't want to spend a full page explaining the obvious.
Everybody else, besides Telford, don't wander.

Not that you see. The woman who takes over Chloe in one of the webisodes specifically mentions getting to see the ship, and is not in the stone room.

http://stargate.mgm.com/view/content/2104/index.html

Was there a lot of factors and circumstances that contributed to the events that transpired? Definite yes. However, bottom line, Rush schemed, lied, and Perry died.

I'm done explaining this point. Who knows, maqybe Rush will have another moment of clarity in the next episode and admit his culpability for Perry's death. Just like he admitted to Riley's death in this episode.

How ironic that the character himself admits his mistake while all Rush apologists can't admit to the truth.

Double standard. You insist on blaming Rush but dismiss the incompetence of the people responsible. Unless you accept that Wray, Greer, and the guard are just as responsible, then like always you're demonizing Rush.

[Shan Bruce Lee]

I can completely see Rush doing that, but I think the game was up and it's either spill some beans or get spaced.

why oh why does 'god' even enter into it?
Maybe it's just me but when I heard what the mission was, my brain went to science, not godhood, but meh...

The first thing I thought was some kind of alien race controlling the universe.

SOME being the key word.
Based on what we do know about Rush, and his previous behavior, I would theorize the following.
Rush KNEW Destiny's mission BEFORE he dialed the 9th chevron address from Icarus Base. Just remember Ginn's interview with Wray.

It would be safe to presume that Rush had knowledge of this legend.
Just as his 'Thinking Room' was not set up in 5 mins, his revelation of Destiny's mission sounds too convenient.



Well, not god as in GOD, but godlike powers, as Ginn said, the ability to control time and space.
Pretty much you have to go back and re-watch every episode with these new revelations in mind in order to comprehend Rush's motivation and actions.

It seems more likely that Rush knew (before they unlocked the 9th chevron) about as much as what Ginn says there and that's why he was so determined to get to Destiny, to figure out what it meant.

So all the stuff from Rush about learning about the secrets of the universe is total soap opera? Wow.

They do that stuff on Days Of Our Lives all the time.

[Shan Bruce Lee]

Of course it's soap opera.

The Young and the Restless was all about the nature of the Universe last week. Didn't you watch?

I saw it. They just rehash old As The World Turns storylines. It's obvious.

Don't ya mean, "Young and The Rushless"!

Well played. It's a shame I can't green the same person twice in one day.

Who is to say Simeon was given free reign by choice? I can can see him overpowering his guards

I'm guessing we're gonna find that guard dead or unconscious nest week.

[antipodal]

Actually 1.6 billion dollars isn't much for Stargate program. The SGC alone in its first year cost almost 7,5 billion*, and the costs increased with each passing year, additions of new teams, developing new technologies etc. Then budget was cut back in season 9. I assume the same happened post AoT. With the System Lords, Replicators and the Ori all defeated and gone military budget cuts and directing some part of thus saved money towards scientific research seemed reasonable and logical, IMO.

In my original post, I did clarify my statement, mentioning the dual wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the current economic situation.

That was not the case in 1997.

Also, 7.5 billion was for the ENTIRE SGC program.

The 1.6 billion was just for the Pegasus project.

[Nth Chevron]

1.6 bill for the Icarus project you mean?

N.C

[Candy88]

Absolutely amazing episode. I'd like to add my voice to the lengthening "best episode ever" list. So glad I stuck with the series after feeling almost an irrational hatred towards the series halfway through season 1. I've really enjoyed every episode this season. Even the drama aspects which I hated so much in early season 1 episodes are enjoyable now as they seem in proportion, relevant and less 90210 like.

In terms of furthering the story of the Stargate universe, surely it's right up there amongst the top episodes of all series. An underlying construct to the universe? Wow.

Makes Dr. McKay's explanation of ascension being purely down to wavelengths & physics (from 'Tao or Rodney') far more plausible, if it's something possibly constructed into the fabric of reality rather than just being an incredibly useful random energy state the ancients discovered.

[Misfits]

The mission! While the scope and the importance of the mission, now revealed, would seem Universal, I have some problems with it.

We really don't know the scope of the puzzle.
Destiny has been on this mission million+ years, collecting data. Has Destiny collected enough to solve this puzzle and only requires the crew to connect the dots or is additional data collection required?
If more data Collection is required, how much more and how much longer to acquire them? Are we talking days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, millenias or longer?
This is very problematic. While the revelation of the mission is helpful, is it achievable?

[myhelix]

I quite enjoy the discussion who is to blame (big if) Simeon killed both Ginn and Perry. I think everyone and no one. Every tragic thing that happens in life is an outcome of extraordinary circumstances taken place on the same day/time. To blame someone for it is not possible because every action someone has taken leads to exactly that situation.
So blame God, Buddha... but he would have an excuse, too.

[Petra]

Anyone else think this episode was a really good showing for Eli? He got to show off his Math Boy skills by figuring out Rush's instructions to Dr. Perry, and by calculating how to get Rush and Young back aboard. He also got some. Props to David Blue for showing Eli happy, enraged, cogitating and, for a brief second, smirking to himself about what a great day he's having. Well... Until the end.

*raises hand* I do! And I did say so in my previous post. In fact, IMO, TGG is a much better Eli episode than Pathogen.

Being there are MANY cases irl of 17-18 yr old lasses shacking up with 50+ yr old guys, (gold digger syndrome) it is not that outrageous. And i would put rush more in his mid 40s.

Exactly. Plus Ginn seems to be in her early to mid-twenties, I don't know why someone assumed she's a teenager. Girl in her 20s + guy in his 40s = it happens.

Not that the point isn't moot ayway, since Rush is into Mandy, not Ginn.

In my original post, I did clarify my statement, mentioning the dual wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the current economic situation.

That was not the case in 1997.

Also, 7.5 billion was for the ENTIRE SGC program.

The 1.6 billion was just for the Icarus project.

You either didn't read my reply, or completely missed my point.

7.5 billion was the cost of the entire SGC program, true. Except that was back in 1997, when the entire program consisted of only the SGC, which at the time had only 9 teams; no research back-up, no training facilities, no off-world bases, no ships etc. The cost of Stargate program was increasing with each passing year and with addition of each of the aforementioned things.

Moreover, the war in Afghanistan started in season 5 (2001) and yet there were extra money found for the construction of Prometheus and X-302s (season 6, 2002). The war in Iraq broke out during season 7 (2003), and yet with 2 ongoing wars the SGC budget was still increased and the extra money found for increasing number of the SG teams, building even more ships, establishing 2 off-world bases (Alpha & Alpha II sites), running Atlantis, establishing Midway station etc. How much do you think each of these things cost?

And if the money was found for all of the above despite wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, why do you insist that Icarus Project, all of a sudden, was too expensive? It doesn't make any sense. Besides, as I said, it's very likely that after defeating all our enemies military budget was cut in favour of scientific budget, which would include the Icarus base.

ETA: blaming Rush

I'm not a Rush fan and I definitely hold him responsible for Riley's death. However, blaming him for Mandy/Ginn's death is reaching and makes no sense. It's a tragic coincidence, not something that Rush could have stopped or prevented, IMO.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

I think Young is more likely to blame as he did not have Simeon in some sort of confinement.

How do we know he didn't?

He could have been confined and escaped.
He could have been guarded and incapacitated his guard.
Hell, for all we know, when everyone was otherwise busy, Wray could have gone to talk to him about something and let him out.
He could be a regular Houdini.
Somebody else could have let him out for all sorts of reasons.
There are lots of ways that could have played out.