So that was pretty much the most underhanded thing we've ever done

[Cold Fuzz]

no risk??????????????
The last two planets that dialed destiny are dead. McCay has demonstrates awful judgement in these situatations. We are fortunate the asgard are no longer around or our actions would have consequences.

That's correct. No risk, from the point of view of Homeworld Security. From our point of view though, we know better. And you're correct that McKay has demonstrated bad judgment in similar situations in the past, and Homeworld Security decided to overlook this. Why? It comes down to this: If there were another Lucian Alliance attack on either Earth or Destiny, the top brass would rather risk someone else's planet rather than our own. It's like Woolsey said: Sovereign states act in their own interest. This is black ops operating on some hard political realities.

You're also correct that this action would not be possible if the Asgard were still around. But they are not. As such, Homeworld Security can pretty much do as it pleases.

[Mr. Jack]

The consequences of this action would have been much greater than the destruction of an uninhabited star system. Even then, Zelenka, a scientist not on the caliber of Carter, objected to the suggestion. I'm sure every great mind on Earth was in on it to give the go ahead.

From Earth's point of view there was no risk with the mission aside from a severed alliance with a power that was not benefiting Earth in any way. The risk of not getting involved was an attack on the Destiny from the Lucian Alliance and the gain was a supply line. The risk with the plan was only the severing of an alliance that wasn't serving them. Other than the spy satellites Earth had no way of confirming if the Alliance was getting involved.

This is where they ****ed up I believe in not confirming the Alliance threat before risking the alliance with Langara. I guess there was a time constraint (how long the ruse could stay) and Young and Telford just didn't want to take the risk of waiting for that information to be found. However, if the alliance was severed because of the plan Earth would be able to use a flexible military arm to deter the alliance from seizing the Langaran facility.

[Ancient Scientist1]

Using other people's bodies against their own will? That's just wrong. Quite frankly, that's no different than the Goa'uld. The Goa'uld took over people's bodies against their will to suit their own needs (especially for their ego).
So doing something (to an ally) that their enemy the Goa'uld did and that they fought against for so long makes is right?
Everyone has a free will: and to take control of that is just plain wrong.

I don't care if they did it for the greater good: my point is that they shouldn't do something like that to their allies, no matter what the situation is (unless they don't want any allies).

Although this was a unique and disturbing twist, I believe the writers took it too far.

PS: I know SGU has a different style than SG1 and SGA.

[Cold Fuzz]

Using other people's bodies against their own will? That's just wrong. Quite frankly, that's no different than the Goa'uld. The Goa'uld took over people's bodies against their will to suit their own needs (especially for their ego).
So doing something (to an ally) that their enemy the Goa'uld did and that they fought against for so long makes is right?
Everyone has a free will: and to take control of that is just plain wrong.

I don't care if they did it for the greater good: my point is that they shouldn't do something like that to their allies, no matter what the situation is (unless they don't want any allies).

Although this was a unique and disturbing twist, I believe the writers took it too far.

PS: I know SGU has a different style than SG1 and SGA.

I agree that it was wrong. I don't think anyone here has any illusions that what they were doing was right, moral, or squeaky clean. However, Homeworld Security is operating on the whole ends-justify-the-means reasoning. The Lucian Alliance attack with the naquadria bomb, the attack on Destiny at the end of season 1, and the Lucian Alliance's build-up of military assets and research has made them a clear and present danger to Homeworld Security and Earth's allies. O'Neill and others in the top brass are going to resort to whatever means necessary to neutralize the Alliance.

Of course, the ends-justifies-the-means argument isn't going to go over well with Langara and Earth's allies. The political fallout will undoubtedly be ugly. It'll be interesting to see how that takes shape. But that would be for a hypothetical season 3.

[Ancient Scientist1]

I agree that it was wrong. I don't think anyone here has any illusions that what they were doing was right, moral, or squeaky clean. However, Homeworld Security is operating on the whole ends-justify-the-means reasoning. The Lucian Alliance attack with the naquadria bomb, the attack on Destiny at the end of season 1, and the Lucian Alliance's build-up of military assets and research has made them a clear and present danger to Homeworld Security and Earth's allies. O'Neill and others in the top brass are going to resort to whatever means necessary to neutralize the Alliance.

Of course, the ends-justifies-the-means argument isn't going to go over well with Langara and Earth's allies. The political fallout will undoubtedly be ugly. It'll be interesting to see how that takes shape. But that would be for a hypothetical season 3.

What I'd like to know why they didn't do something like this when they were fighting other enemies much more powerful than the Lucian Alliance? (Unless I have my Stargate history wrong.)
Therefore, to have this situation take place, to me, doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Cold Fuzz]

What I'd like to know why they didn't do something like this when they were fighting other enemies much more powerful than the Lucian Alliance? (Unless I have my Stargate history wrong.)
Therefore, to have this situation take place, to me, doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

We got glimpses of that with Maybourne and that whole situation with the NID pilfering advanced technology from our allies to be used against the Goa'uld. Because Earth was in a technologically inferior position compared to all of our allies (and the Goa'uld) at that time period, Earth couldn't jeopardize our treaties with our allies. There were major mutual protection considerations. The situation is different now. Earth is now in the position of the Asgard, a galactic power--but they weren't before when Maybourne and the NID dirty tricks squads were doing their thing. Earth now pretty much sets policy in the Milky Way and they're starting to act like it now.

[Ancient Scientist1]

We got glimpses of that with Maybourne and that whole situation with the NID pilfering advanced technology from our allies to be used against the Goa'uld. Because Earth was in a technologically inferior position compared to all of our allies (and the Goa'uld) at that time period, Earth couldn't jeopardize our treaties with our allies. There were major mutual protection considerations. The situation is different now. Earth is now in the position of the Asgard, a galactic power--but they weren't before when Maybourne and the NID dirty tricks squads were doing their thing. Earth now pretty much sets policy in the Milky Way and they're starting to act like it now.

Yeah, the NID did their fair share of "borrowing" technology from other races. And yeah, the Asgard with the help of Jack dealt with that situation. But I do not remember the Asgard as a whole (I'm not referring to any rogue Asgard) doing what Earth did or at least something that bad.
Earth may be a galactic power now, but that doesn't mean they have the freedom to do what they please or else Earth would be just as guilty as the enemies they destroyed.

[Cold Fuzz]

Yeah, the NID did their fair share of "borrowing" technology from other races. And yeah, the Asgard with the help of Jack dealt with that situation. But I do not remember the Asgard as a whole (I'm not referring to any rogue Asgard) doing what Earth did or at least something that bad.
Earth may be a galactic power now, but that doesn't mean they have the freedom to do what they please or else Earth would be just as guilty as the enemies they destroyed.

I'd say that Earth is following the path of the Ancients. They certainly made their share of mistakes and failures, with their treatment of the Asurans (especially trying to exterminate them) being pretty atrocious. And all of that was in the name of self-defense against the Wraith.

[TheHomegaMan]

So much of this comes down to the characters realizing "Oh, the Langarans turned down the Lucian Alliance. Crap."

Frankly, the situation on Destiny is tenuous. The ship is vulnerable to attack. There are somewhere in the vicinity of 75 to 90 people on Destiny, based on the number of Lucians we've seen added to the crew minus the losses suffered along the way. Of that number, a good chunk are not up to fighting off a determined, equipped, and capable invading force. Could the Destineers fight off another incursion? Perhaps, but they don't exactly have a stunning track record. Lest people forget, the only reason the Lucian Alliance doesn't control Destiny right now is because they dropped our people off on a planet, allowing Rush to present his ultimatum. They didn't get control back because they did anything right, they got control back because Dannic screwed up in a HUGE way. With that in mind, of course Young would strongly push for something like this. And that doesn't even get into the potential of what Destiny's mission could mean. This likely explains the military's support.

On the diplomatic front, I could see the mission being explained as a short term harm for a long term gain. Think about it. HWC had strong confidence in the ability to dial Destiny without blowing a planet up, and both core overloads were attributed to Carter bombardment of the planet. That wasn't going to be the case here. Langara sits a good 60-70 years behind OUR modern level technology, and dialing Destiny and really making use of the Stargate has taken advances beyond our normal level of technology. They really didn't have the time to go over the math and science with people who couldn't believe that a small tablet could monitor power levels. With this "proof of concept" (great term by Young, btw), they could skip all that and show solid results.

Besides, at the time there was the very real fear that they could be losing Langara to the LA diplomatically. What were the people of HWC to do? Sit back and gamble that their alliance was stronger than LA diplomacy or intimidation? Hope that these people who may or may not have gone over to their enemy are telling the truth? The diplomats signed off and went along with it because the mission could finally put all the doubts to rest, and had the potential to strengthen ties between Langara and Earth. Think about it: Langara could have gone from being an ally with a valuable resource to being absolutely critical to the success of a very important mission of literally universal import. HWC's diplomats could've made that case had the mission succeeded.

So much of the outrage about this episode (besides "WE WANTED AN ATLANTIS REUNION!") appears to stem from the fact that in the end, HWC was wrong about the nature of Langara's relationship with the Lucian Alliance. Had they actually gone over to the LA, we'd be seeing an entirely different reaction. The problem was that we screwed our allies over, but had they gone to the LA they wouldn't have been our allies at all. Case in point: how many people had a problem with Young intentionally swapping with the Blue for the second time in Space? Exactly.

I loved Seizure for what it was: a story about what happens when trust breaks down and one party becomes borderline desperate to achieve a goal. It's great to see our "heroes" be absolutely convinced that they're doing the right thing, only to find out that they were wrong, were fallible, and were operating under the wrong assumptions.

Make of that what you will.

[Lahela]

Using other people's bodies against their own will? That's just wrong. Quite frankly, that's no different than the Goa'uld. The Goa'uld took over people's bodies against their will to suit their own needs (especially for their ego).
So doing something (to an ally) that their enemy the Goa'uld did and that they fought against for so long makes is right?
Everyone has a free will: and to take control of that is just plain wrong.

I don't care if they did it for the greater good: my point is that they shouldn't do something like that to their allies, no matter what the situation is (unless they don't want any allies).

Although this was a unique and disturbing twist, I believe the writers took it too far.

PS: I know SGU has a different style than SG1 and SGA.

Didn't Daniel and Vala take over other people's bodies against their will too? With very nasty (if only temporary) consequences.

[bluealien]

I agree. Their technique was extremely clever but to use it on a planet with which they have diplomatic relations? Horrible.. I think the writers got too carried away.

I think the writers started portraying the characters with this arrogant superiority complex for quite some time now. They can go to any lenghts and never suffer any consquenses to their atrocious actions. But if their so called enemies acted this way we'd be calling them evil monsters. Its no wonder that the main complaint against SGU is that the characters are too unlikeable to root for. This episode proved this - who wants to root for dispicable, devious characters who have no moral standing whatsoever.

[Flyboy]

I think the writers started portraying the characters with this arrogant superiority complex for quite some time now. They can go to any lenghts and never suffer any consquenses to their atrocious actions. But if their so called enemies acted this way we'd be calling them evil monsters. Its no wonder that the main complaint against SGU is that the characters are too unlikeable to root for. This episode proved this - who wants to root for dispicable, devious characters who have no moral standing whatsoever.

Why should you necessarily ROOT for the characters?

As has been said, what HWC did was a poor diplomatic decision and highly immoral. The forcable and unauthorised presence of a foreign military force on Langaran soil constituted an act of war. Langara would be well within their rights to cut off diplomatic relations, and even respond with aggression. Except they can't... because Earth is a bigger dog. Despite the fact that there is no single way to condone the act, and it was, frankly, not especially well thought through. I honestly loved it.

As posters have said many times in this thread, it's about time we saw Earth acting in a believable fashion. WHY should the lead characters of a tv show always do what we want them to do? Frankly, I find such an idea pathetic. The characters are not our play things to look up to and wish to be, they are characters in a story - and in one that attempts to be realistic, I think this was well handled. America has, in reality, always done this sort of thing. I once again must highlight the numerous attempts to undermine Fidel Castro's power. Some of these were down right bizarre and ineffective. The CIA actually tried to make his beard fall out so as to destroy his political power. I kid you not. Look it up. Subterfuge has long been a tool in the US political tool box, and doubtless countless other states on Earth. The Russians have been known to damage their own infrastructure in order to blame it on another body and legitimise military action.

Frankly, I think people are being too black and white about all this, and you just proved it. You talk about dispicable and devious characters who have no moral standing, but that is not true. Young and Telford have both demonstrated high morals. What we are seeing is that the individuals are in fact complicated, with multiple layers, and the decision as to where to draw the line will vary on different occasions. One immoral act does not automatically render an individual immoral or despicable.

Why should we be so simplistic that we MUST have a Daz-Whiter than White hero to root for, why can't we accept lead characters that are reflections of us as a society, trying to deal with all kinds of crazy situations that we can't imagine being placed into.

From a Realist school of thought within International Relations theory - self interest does indeed come first. Often self interest can be shoe horned into different catagories, and even the most benign of acts can have an element of self interest. Add into that, however, flawed or incomplete intelligence, and we have a lot of mistakes made. Whilst I don't disagree with the Iraq war (2003) in principle, the reasons for going in were entirely flawed - yes Saddam DID have WMDs - most left over from the last time, but no where near what we were expecting or the amounts that we were expecting to justify invasion. This stuff happens in International Relations. I see no reason why similar mistakes based on faulty intelligence and self-interest should not happen in intersteller relationships. Particularly when, let us consider - that though military alliances may exist on Earth, within the world of intelligence alliances are no where near as strong - and the concept of a 'friendly nation' becomes more and more blurred.

HWCs biggest mistake was trying to do too much at once, they should, imo, have just tried to verify the Lucian Alliance involvement with Langara.

[Duneknight]

honestly, these characters haven't displayed much if any noble actions that will make the viewer root for them. There was no self-sacrafice I remember. They can have questionable morals but all they are doing in the end is trying to save themselves collectivily. Choosing to stay onboard destiny for the "god's message" discovery is not noble since its not about saving anyone.

[Flyboy]

honestly, these characters haven't displayed much if any noble actions that will make the viewer root for them. There was no self-sacrafice I remember. They can have questionable morals but all they are doing in the end is trying to save themselves collectivily. Choosing to stay onboard destiny for the "god's message" discovery is not noble since its not about saving anyone.

Spoiler:

Rush - stayed behind on Destiny when it was exploding to allow Young to get through

Greer - sacrificed a Kidney, went back to save Scott in 'Air'

Telford - stayed behind on the seeder ship

They're off the top of my head...


Besides, I say again, why do we HAVE to root for these characters?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kai,

While I agree about real life... the lure of Stargate is the same for most other sci-fi shows: escapism. We watch because it's not reality. In this universe, we are the good guys, or at least try to be.

This is going to come off as harsh but if it is pure escapism you want without any relevance to the real world or moral ambiguity why not watch "My Little Pony" instead of SG:U? It's escapist, it's morally simplistic, it should work for you, right?

I agree this seemed to be a poor idea from the start. That said I think it was the least bad option. The big mistake was not investigating the LA connection before proceeding with the 9th chevron dialing test. The key HWC's desision is their belief that the Langarans went over to the LA. What I cannot understand is why the Langarans, if they are Earth Allies, did not tell Earth about the LA attempts to bring them into the LA fold. That would have explained the communications with the LA and likely headed off this operation before it began.