'Seizure' (215) General Discussion

[TheRandomOne]

They could have easily had a Jonas mention at the end when Vanessa was asking how the plan went & if they betrayed Earth or not & when Young says no & then had Vanessa comment about how they must really like working with Earth or something & then Young says something like the Langaran President said we have Jonas Quinn to thank for making sure his Planet help keeps the relationship between Langara & Earth. Something subtle like that

[Pecisk]

SGA rocked (I loved those series, as I love SGU - they are different, but they are both part of the same puzzle), and for me seeing two landmark figures Mr. Woolsey, despite initially disliking of him in SG-1, I enjoyed him as administrator of SGA - nervous, yet logically and strategically thinking, manipulative, but for reason (and it's good to have such person if you have to get your hands dirty in politics at your side). Would have S3 happened, Rush versus Woolsey dual ep would be rocking - and of course McKay, nervous, self-important, with super genius complex, yet very human - was refreshing. Yes, SGU is the finish of Stargate TV franchise (at least for now), but we can look back and say - heck, it's have been great years with lot of things to chew on. In TV, so well developed world is rarity. Let's enjoy it.

p.s. Interesting would be project something like Star Wars: The Old Republic is doing - developed special story, which carried trough MMORPG, book, comics. It's not cinema or TV, but at least Stargate franchise with it's rich environment would live on.

[Lahela]

Rodney could have easily said "I'm happy where I am", "I've got my own Ancient mysteries to figure out..." or some such that would have allowed SGA fans to hear whatever they wanted to hear without painting themselves into a corner.

Rodney could have said something like that, but people would still be complaining because he couldn't have mentioned Atlantis without it being specific.

As for Jonas, as you point out, they mentioned Sheppard without worrying about the audience "WTF'ing"... "The langarans are long time allies of earth, in fact one of them served as a member of SG1. It would have been so much easier to smooth things over if he had been here to act as a liaison. Too bad he is <insert one of> Dead, offworld, has the sniffles, etc.."

True. But as has been pointed out before, Jonas hasn't been mentioned since S7 so we'll just have to make of that what we will.

The whole subplot of Rush being stuck in the ship's computer happened so he could get his rocks off, not just the literal minute and a half.

No, the sub-plot wasn't just about that. There was a lot more to it than that.

[The_Asgard_live]

As for earth being horrible and risking their planet for the 80 people on Destiny. They now KNOW a way to do it safely. Yes it can not be totaly sure that it is 100% but they seem to have the backing of McKay (plus I guess allll scientist at his disposal, maybe Carter too) Brody, Eli, maybe others. And Eli seemed completely sure about it. McKay said there is 0% chance of anything going wrong. Had they wanted to they could have taken a ship to Langara and beamed as many soldiers as they wanted down there and kept arial defense of any movement to the complex. Or just beamed some of their people out to give them the complex. They did not do this. They went in trying to do it without ay casualties to show them it can work. They were not putting any one in danger as far as they could be sure of it and they saw it as a last chance as they believed Langerans to be in connection with the LA. Yes they turned out not to be, but they couldn't take that risk, they had to find out for sure.

McKay was 100% sure he could solve project arcturus - right before he blew up a solar system with it. SG command was also sure that McKay's sister's calculations would funnel the exotic particles from arcturus into an uninhabited universe, right before they almost destroyed an inhabited universe with it. Eli was sure he could open a gate back to earth while Destiny was inside a sun, right before he Destroyed Destiny and killed the crew.

Again, the premise is stupid. Jeopardizing relations and putting an entire planet at risk to send supplies to 80 people. Again, why would the langaran's ever trust Earth after it took over its leader's bodies, its facilities, and potentially risked the entire population without permission to make a point.

[traylormatt]

Rodney could have easily said "I'm happy where I am", "I've got my own Ancient mysteries to figure out..." or some such that would have allowed SGA fans to hear whatever they wanted to hear without painting themselves into a corner.

As for Jonas, as you point out, they mentioned Sheppard without worrying about the audience "WTF'ing"... I think by the time this episode was written they probably had some idea the audience was sadly, too small and probably consists of left overs from the original 2 series, not a lot of new blood.

Ok so they answer something about McKay - but what if he actually does want to go to Destiny rather tan staying on Atlantis for now? We have no idea what his character progression is going to be and the writers will not just throw in a line to appease fans who may be curious. His story could possibly be a lot more complex.

As for Jonas - I may be wrong, but none of the people who visited the planet had ever even met Jonas. So though they may have known him, it would have only really benefited the Langarans as they would have had some insider knowledge. Yesssss there could have been a mention of him but what about lots of other people's curiosities that want answering? So they manage to mention that Rodney wants to stay on Atlantis. Well where is Atlantis now. What has happened to him and Keller (for all the fans out there that desperately want to know how that is going on), is the SGA team still together. Where is Carter, why did she not bring the Hammond to Langara to give assistance. How is Teal'c or Mitchell or Daniel. Why was Daniel - someone that had spent time with the Langarans and usually quite a good diplomat for earth not sent with them. Why was SG1 not sent on this mission, this would usually have been the exact mission they would go for. If we are expecting to talk to their ambassador and other high ranking people in their world then why could O'neill not go on this mission as a sign of good faith etc. Or Landry?

Sheppard was mentioned because he is a fellow officer and only a rank below Young, so maybe they had met before at the SGC and spoken about his time on Atlantis, which is why the little quip was thrown in. Who would have mentioned Jonas really? saying "We have had relations before, one of your best worked with us for a time" ahh yes that would be good "Hey remember when one of your guys basically defacted to us, one of your brightest left to come and help US solve the mysteries of the universe, helping US find the city of Atlantis and who you basically treated like an outcast at one point. Sooooo, how is he?"

As for them going to atlantis, if it is on earth then sure, they could have met there. But if it is back on Pagasus would they really invite people to come to earth to then gate to Atlantis or fly them how ever long to get them there? no, of course they wouldnt.

The problem is there are LOTS of questions that people would like asked and each of those questions could be answered in a 7 second window, but where do you draw the line? you can't answer every one, so the writers made a decision to not mention any of it. It wasn;t needed for the story, it would have only been there to answer a handful of fans curiosity. They threw a line in mentioning Shep and we saw a few SGA charactrs which idn;t actually need to be there (Eli could have solved the problem or used Destiny's info to come up with a solution through perry. A different diplomat could have be used other that Woolsey). They gave something but then people get greedy.

[traylormatt]

McKay was 100% sure he could solve project arcturus - right before he blew up a solar system with it. SG command was also sure that McKay's sister's calculations would funnel the exotic particles from arcturus into an uninhabited universe, right before they almost destroyed an inhabited universe with it. Eli was sure he could open a gate back to earth while Destiny was inside a sun, right before he Destroyed Destiny and killed the crew.


Again, the premise is stupid. Jeopardizing relations and putting an entire planet at risk to send supplies to 80 people. Again, why would the langaran's ever trust Earth after it took over its leader's bodies, its facilities, and potentially risked the entire population without permission to make a point.

They were always sure but there were always other people telling them no and that it wouldn't work. This had pretty much all of earth's best minds saying that this would work, without a doubt. It is not the same as only one egocentric individual believeing THEY can MAKE it work, which is what they were doing. McKay is always sure of himself and ELI was getting too big for his boots and needed to be reeled in, which as evidenced by his now self doubt regarding connecting to the chair to see Ginn again, has worked. Before, he would have just said, no I know best, and done it. Now he went for the safer option.

As for relations, we have on numerous occasions put ourselves at risk to help allies, like the Asgard. I don't think it is stupid trying to help 80 of your people in a plan that they bleiev will certainly work, which is what they thought about dialing the gate.

So the tensions become high between earth and langara, what do we need from them? Do they actually share their Naquadria? Do we know if they do or don't, have we seen any evidence of it, especially since the Ori thing? nope. So really we are in a situation where we will assist them and get nothing in return. Not very fair. and please please please pleasssssse can no one start about how the West helps other countries when they need it even if they have nothing to give back. pleasssssse, That is not a valid point in this topic.

[Pecisk]

Again, the premise is stupid. Jeopardizing relations and putting an entire planet at risk to send supplies to 80 people. Again, why would the langaran's ever trust Earth after it took over its leader's bodies, its facilities, and potentially risked the entire population without permission to make a point.

Again, not so stupid IMO. First, two attacks from LA indicated that there is something about Destiny Earth doesn't know - and as Earth is in war with LA, it shouldn't let them have it. It's kinda very clear motive here - not letting your enemy get strategical advantage.

Also, Earth have made errors all over SG-1 and SGA series (some very serious ones). I think producers usually show it as "err is human" side, that humans are capable of grave errors and wonderful self-sacrifices. It's about facing consequences of choices you make - when you have to protect Earth at all costs.

I think lot of former series very selectively forget lot of SG-1 and SGA team blunters with far more reaching consequences. Yes, they had humor, but very sparse.

[The_Asgard_live]

Ok so they answer something about McKay - but what if he actually does want to go to Destiny rather tan staying on Atlantis for now? We have no idea what his character progression is going to be and the writers will not just throw in a line to appease fans who may be curious. His story could possibly be a lot more complex.

You're logic escapes me. The post I replied to basically made the point that they couldn't mention Atlantis or Jonas. I offered a way they could. Good writing. Your response to that is to throw 100 new hurdles in my way (Teal'c, Daniel, etc..). So lets take it from the top.

1. Rodney has no reason to be the lead scientist on this or appear in this episode.
2. Woolsey has no reason to be the lead negotiator or appear in this episode.

It was fan service. So, last we knew, we have the leader of Atlantis, and its lead scientist on the show, a mention of its top ranking military officer, but no mention of Atlantis itself. Only that Telford wants to McKay to leave (again, so far as we know). That is poor fan service.

Then this episode is about the planet where Jonas is from, a former member of SG1 and no mention of him? That is odd. It would actually make more sense to mention him than not. As far as Jonas being an outcast, he did end up saving their planet. I thought the outcast thing was behind them?

[traylormatt]

And also, you can say that they don't want to ruin relations. as far as Earth was aware, The Langarans were in talks with the LA. So they thought the relations were over and would have been prepared to take the place by force had their suspicions been true.

So it turned out to be wrong, but how could they have been sure? They couldn't. Asking out right wouldn't have worked. So they went in with a 2 pronged attack on the matter. A - Dial the gate to prove it works. Sure they will be angry but once they have something to baragain with (the gate dialing Destiny) they can get some tech and resources from us. B - Find out if they actually are in talks with the LA to find out if they need to take force to protect themselves.

Perfectly fair approach. They had to infiltrate, and as people have mentioned in other threads, with the stones there is no better way to find out information than using it as the perfect disguise, which they did. Personally the only stupid part was that lower ranking officer disobeying his orders and some how suddenly suspecting that something was wrong.

Yes argue that SG1 had done similar things and disobeyed orders, but that was usually Jack who would have been a damn sight higher in ranking than that man was.

[blazingfire]

Personally I loved the part where McKay comes at the beginning and one of the Atlantis soundtracks plays on. I thought that was a nice touch

[traylormatt]

You're logic escapes me. The post I replied to basically made the point that they couldn't mention Atlantis or Jonas. I offered a way they could. Good writing. Your response to that is to throw 100 new hurdles in my way (Teal'c, Daniel, etc..). So lets take it from the top.

1. Rodney has no reason to be the lead scientist on this or appear in this episode.
2. Woolsey has no reason to be the lead negotiator or appear in this episode.

It was fan service. So, last we knew, we have the leader of Atlantis, and its lead scientist on the show, a mention of its top ranking military officer, but no mention of Atlantis itself. Only that Telford wants to McKay to leave (again, so far as we know). That is poor fan service.

Then this episode is about the planet where Jonas is from, a former member of SG1 and no mention of him? That is odd. It would actually make more sense to mention him than not. As far as Jonas being an outcast, he did end up saving their planet. I thought the outcast thing was behind them?

You can not just say "good writing" is the answer to the problem. It is not good writing but "good writing to make some fans happy". They are already doing that to make a number of fans happy but they can't just keep going deeper and deeper.

There is no mention that McKay or Woolsey are still on Atlantis. Telford does not ask him to leave Atlantis, he asks him to come to Destiny saying he could pretty much have is pick of assignments. So if Atlantis is back on earth, McKay may be working in more of an overseeing capacity, working on projects that interest him, Atlantis or otherwise, including Destiny and gating there.

Yes he is a former member of SG1, but no member of SG1 went to the planet, no one that worked with Jonas during his time at SGC went to the planet. Any mention of him would have been an "oh so Jonas used to work there, thats nice". it would have been a polite question about the actions of a person none of them have any personal stake or interest in (on the earth side that is). It would have just been a glaring and obvious shout out to older SG1 fans. Hell, even some SGA fans (not the ones on the forum but just SGA fans) may not even know who he is. To us it seems an obvious question, but it wouldn't be to everyone. I know by this logic then how can they use McKay or Woolsey or mention Shep, but SGA was a middle bridge between the two shows. People who watched SG1 watched SGA (i know not all but still a lot) then people who watch SGU would have watched SGA, or atleast a fair bit of it, there will be some completely new fans, but still. You have a safer bet that people will know McKay and Shep and Woolsey than people will know Jonas. Fact.

So if they can forgive him for saving their planet, then surely the Langarens will be able to forgive Earth as they are going to protect them from a possible LA attack then? by your logic

[Pecisk]

Perfectly fair approach. They had to infiltrate, and as people have mentioned in other threads, with the stones there is no better way to find out information than using it as the perfect disguise, which they did. Personally the only stupid part was that lower ranking officer disobeying his orders and some how suddenly suspecting that something was wrong.

His body language indicated that he was worried completely about something else - that Earth will succeed in showing his administration that they can dial Destiny. I would put my money on this that it was LA sympathizer or even spy. His deep distrust with Earth people and his frustration when Scott took over his commander body were kinda give away.

[traylormatt]

Are you saying that the person that Scott took over was possibly an LA spy or the person that uspected his commander of being different?

I personally thought that the lower ranking officer may have been some kind of spy. If the other guy (the one that switched with Scott) was some type of LA then I don't think he would have been so scared/shocked when he switched. But I do not know.

[Pecisk]

No, Scott took over noble commander, but his lower ranking officer looked very nervous every time he saw Earth people. I think it was more than simple suspicion, yes.

[traylormatt]

No, Scott took over noble commander, but his lower ranking officer looked very nervous every time he saw Earth people. I think it was more than simple suspicion, yes.

Yeah this is what I suspected too. The only thing I found stupid was who he went to. Surely there would have been another officer to go to. But maybe this means that Ambassador Ovirda could have also been in on it? so reluctant to hear the proposal, he was the one the young soldier went to. I know they read the messages saying that they were not involved, but he could have been discussing it also. I am not saying that this is what I believe, just a slight possibility, one that I hope never happens.