Simeon unrealistically overpowered.

[thekillman]

you do know that the scene literally went like this:

*power drops*
Guards * hey the power drops*
*boom*
Guard 2: WTF *turns to face simeon and shoot him*
*boom*

Simeon then keeps his weapon trained on the second guard while he punches the door opener.


there was no chance for either. no chance to aim, to shout, nothing.

[Blackhole]

And here are some more opinions that give you an idea on the subject of being shot.

One of my favorite lines there: "The truth is, you can shoot ten different people with the same gun and get ten different results." Which really is true. So statistically speaking, it's highly unlikely for everyone to react the same way in succession when being shot (ie, each Marine Simeon shot wouldn't react the same way). At least one of them would have been conscious enough to fire back; but that's TV for ya.

But there ya go. You don't have to believe I was shot, but ultimately it's immaterial when you can look up information online. Apparently, not a lot of people are capable of doing that....

I checked your reference on subject of being shot. And as usual you quoted a passage out of context that seems to prove your point. The author did say that "The truth is, you can shoot ten different people with the same gun and get ten different results." but he went on to say:

"A .38 caliber and .45 caliber are large caliber bullets. They travel at a low velocity, which makes them relatively easy to stop. If they hit someone in the chest it's like hitting them with a baseball bat..."

"On the other hand, any of these calibers can cause instant clinical death and spontaneous drop if they sever a large vessel (such as an aorta, for example) or hit the heart or brain. In the case of major vessels or the heart, this is relative to a massive drop in blood pressure. In reality the person falls unconscious due to the drop in blood pressure or shock and death follows in only a few seconds or minutes, giving the appearance that he dropped dead?."

His conclusion was:

"In my personal experience, if you shoot a man in the chest he will go into shock and fall down no matter what you shoot him with. If you shoot him with something big enough, he will fall down and die."

Simeon shot everyone with .45 caliber bullets.

[Blackhole]

I call it likes I sees it. Hell, weren't you one of the ones who thought Young's actions were rather stupid when the LA came onboard? So if you believe so, then you would be condescending as well. It's okay, join the club! There's no shame over here. =)

And so did the writers. That was one of the points of episode. Young was psychologically deteriorating and was making bad decisions. I don’t use that description for nearly every episode as you do.

Once again, you haven't even heard a gun go off. Those things are LOUD; forget what you see on TV. Young raised his voice, but he didn't really yell and Telford was able to hear him.

And your argument was that the doors were soundproof; I proved you wrong, and so you're trying to change your viewpoint to; "Well, um, maybe MOSTLY soundproof then!" which doesn't make a lot of sense, but there ya go. You have no proof of this, and pretty much you have no proof of anything. Until you do, further discussion is pointless; all you bring is conjecture.

Yours also makes no sense. Like I said, guns are loud; so loud, that people on shooting ranges generally wear ear protection. Simeon basically set off an extremely loud firecracker, and any marine will instantly recognize that sound within a half a mile, easy. If Simeon was outside that range, then they had plenty of time to note that something was wrong, and to be on alert.

That's it. That's your only two choices. Pick one: Simeon was too far, or Simeon was too close. We'll go with whichever one you want.

Yes I know gunshots are loud but they are not that loud.

Telford and Young were inches away from the door and they could barely hear each other. The sound of the light box gunshot had to travel down a corridor, likely around a corner and through one or two closed doors. The attenuation effects of sound travel through thick metal doors are obvious to just about anyone except you. And if he went around a corner then the sound would be reverberative and be greatly attenuated.

As I and others have said over and over again you have no idea what the construction and layout was of the Destiny. The only fact you have stubbornly clung to for evidence for your scenario was the fact that Young and Telford could barely communicate through a closed compartment door when they were each inches away from it.

I know you think your anime fan fiction experience qualifies you in all things writing. Of course Simeon's assault scenario created by the SGU writers was sloppy and poorly written. Of course it requires the guards to be complete fools. Of course it is logical and reasonable that the writers of SGU's caliber would have the guards foolishly ignore both walkie talkie warnings and a gunshot and choose not to assume a defensive posture. Of course you can't help if the characters of SGU often behave stupidly. You call it as you see it.

You're also forgetting one other thing: you're assuming there would be closed doors between there, but the only closed doors we generally see are to quarters, or other special rooms. In short, it was far more likely there was a completely open hallway between the two places.

On a spaceship where decompression is a threat leaving doors open is generally not a good idea. It was far more likely that the doors were closed.

The science of how sound travels and guns. You should go to a gun range sometime; you'll find it very educational. And let me know if you need more information on the physics of sound.

I know you like to consider yourself an expert on everything you write about. But thank you, if I need expert information I will seek it out from someone who actually has some.

[Kaiphantom]

I checked your reference on subject of being shot. And as usual you quoted a passage out of context that seems to prove your point. The author did say that "The truth is, you can shoot ten different people with the same gun and get ten different results." but he went on to say:

"A .38 caliber and .45 caliber are large caliber bullets. They travel at a low velocity, which makes them relatively easy to stop. If they hit someone in the chest it's like hitting them with a baseball bat..."

"On the other hand, any of these calibers can cause instant clinical death and spontaneous drop of they sever a large vessel (such as an aorta, for example) or hit the heart or brain. In the case of major vessels or the heart, this is relative to a massive drop in blood pressure. In reality the person falls unconscious due to the drop in blood pressure or shock and death follows in only a few seconds or minutes, giving the appearance that he dropped dead?."

His conclusion was:

"In my personal experience, if you shoot a man in the chest he will go into shock and fall down no matter what you shoot him with. If you shoot him with something big enough, he will fall down and die."

Simeon shot everyone with .45 caliber bullets.

And you know this how? It was never said what kind of gun or bullets Simeon used.

You also miss my point; it was never that the guards wouldn't fall down, it was that after they went down (and yes, anyone would when shot with a gun due to shock alone, if nothing else), that there is a fairly good chance they wouldn't immediately die. He shot each one once then went into the armory and spent some time gathering stuff. At the very least, by the time he came out, one of the guards would have been able to shoot him. Nothing you quoted contradicts that.

When you start with a conclusion and try to jam facts around it, naturally it's not gonna come off too well.

And so did the writers. That was one of the points of episode. Young was psychologically deteriorating and was making bad decisions. I don’t use that description for nearly every episode as you do.

Great! We're agreed; stupidity abounds!

Yes I know gunshots are loud but they are not that loud.

Telford and Young were inches away from the door and they could barely hear each other. The sound of the light box gunshot had to travel down a corridor, likely around a corner and through one or two closed doors. The attenuation effects of sound travel through thick metal doors are obvious to just about anyone except you. And if he went around a corner then the sound would be reverberative and be greatly attenuated.

As I and others have said over and over again you have no idea what the construction and layout was of the Destiny. The only fact you have stubbornly clung to for evidence for your scenario was the fact that Young and Telford could barely communicate through a closed compartment door when they were each inches away from it.

The problem is, even if we accept your assumption about the doors blocking a lot of sound, you have no evidence there were any closed doors in the way. Indeed, all evidence points to the conclusion that the only doors that are routinely closed in normal circumstances, are those leading to rooms or sealed off areas of the ship.

So, in order to accept your theory, we have to accept not one, but two baseless assumptions. That isn't exactly steady ground to form a theory on, especially when one of your baseless assumptions (that doors block all sound) was blatantly proved false. So, are you going to keep modifying your baseless assumptions? Or will you go with Occam's Razor and accept the simplest solution is usually the correct one?

I know your anime fan fiction experience qualifies you in all things writing. Of course Simeon's assault scenario created by the SGU writers was sloppy and poorly written. Of course it requires the guards to be complete fools. Of course it is logical and reasonable that the writers of SGU's caliber would have the guards foolishly ignore both walkie talkie warnings and a gunshot and choose not to assume a defensive posture. Of course you can't help if the characters of SGU often behave stupidly. You call it as you see it.

My anime fanfiction writing doesn't qualify me for much. Although I'd suggest you get into writing some fanfiction yourself, and the more important aspect, become part of a forum that will critique your writing. Because it's not so much the writing, as it is the critical feedback you get that points out plot holes and stupid actions by characters. Depending the forum, you can get anywhere from a dozen, to hundreds of people commenting. That's the biggest thing that helps you as a writer in sharpening your mind towards these things(you can hear JM talk about this when his script comes back with revisions). My earlier fanfiction was rife with plot holes and sloppy writing, where I had been told several times that it felt like the plot was pushing the characters in one direction, when I should have been writing it so the characters moved the plot. It's a subtle, but important distinction.

I know you like to consider yourself an expert on everything you write about. But thank you, if I need expert information I will seek it out from someone who actually has some.

Well, it's a good thing I tend to quote from sources to support my viewpoint, instead of, I dunno, making baseless assumptions without quoting any expert sources. Like you. I'm sure everyone here will decide to believe in random internet guy backed by no sources.

Talking about experiences, I'm sure you've at least been to high school, even if you haven't been to college. Ever write papers? Ever had the teacher tell you about a bibliography, and how important it is to cite sources to back up your viewpoints? There's an important reason for that....

Oh, but wait! If you use your experiences from high school and/or college, you would be accused of it being too "convenient that your experiences just happen to support your position in this debate"! And we can't have that.

[tinerin]

And you know this how? It was never said what kind of gun or bullets Simeon used.

But you don't know either. It's possible that the bullets have been modified to be more powerful than a normal bullet.

You also miss my point; it was never that the guards wouldn't fall down, it was that after they went down (and yes, anyone would when shot with a gun due to shock alone, if nothing else), that there is a fairly good chance they wouldn't immediately die. He shot each one once then went into the armory and spent some time gathering stuff. At the very least, by the time he came out, one of the guards would have been able to shoot him. Nothing you quoted contradicts that.

If I remember correctly, Simeon kept his gun pointed at the guards after he shot them as he was walking toward the armory. It would have been suicide for them to try to shoot him. Also, firing a gun into an armory is an unbelievably stupid thing to do especially knowing how much Lucian Alliance explosives are being stored in there. Sure you might stop Simeon, but there's a good chance you might kill yourself and the guard who was standing next to you and you might also destroy all our weapons in the armory or even cripple the entire ship.

Another thing you need to take into account is that these are not the healthy soldiers that you might find at an army base near your house. These guys are exhausted, malnourished, not necessarily in the best mental state, they may have been injured recently including possible concussions, they may have any medicine for minor health issues like headaches, and we don't know what side effects frequent stone use might have on their physical and/or mental health.

The problem is, even if we accept your assumption about the doors blocking a lot of sound, you have no evidence there were any closed doors in the way. Indeed, all evidence points to the conclusion that the only doors that are routinely closed in normal circumstances, are those leading to rooms or sealed off areas of the ship.

One thing though is that Destiny is a huge ship. Easily the second largest ship in the franchise next to the Atlantis type ships. So it's actually far more likely that there were closed doors between Simeon and the nearest person who could have heard the gunshot. You can't even know if they were on the same level of the ship.

So, in order to accept your theory, we have to accept not one, but two baseless assumptions. That isn't exactly steady ground to form a theory on, especially when one of your baseless assumptions (that doors block all sound) was blatantly proved false. So, are you going to keep modifying your baseless assumptions? Or will you go with Occam's Razor and accept the simplest solution is usually the correct one?

The problem is that the simplest solution is also the stupidest solution for a million year old, badly damaged spaceship that is constantly coming under attack. More likely, production reasons are why you don't see a ton of opening and closing doors. The doors are slow and loud and requires a person to stop at the closed door and manually open it. The producers would lose valuable story time if they had to show every single door opening and closing. Of course, some dude just walking into another person's quarters would be really creepy so they have to show the door there.

Well, it's a good thing I tend to quote from sources to support my viewpoint, instead of, I dunno, making baseless assumptions without quoting any expert sources. Like you. I'm sure everyone here will decide to believe in random internet guy backed by no sources.

The problem being that your sources only apply to the real world and not in a science fiction world that called quantum physics a "misconception of elementary science" in its first year.

[Blackhole]

And you know this how? It was never said what kind of gun or bullets Simeon used.

The gun Simeon used looked like a Military .45.

You also miss my point; it was never that the guards wouldn't fall down, it was that after they went down (and yes, anyone would when shot with a gun due to shock alone, if nothing else), that there is a fairly good chance they wouldn't immediately die. He shot each one once then went into the armory and spent some time gathering stuff. At the very least, by the time he came out, one of the guards would have been able to shoot him. Nothing you quoted contradicts that.

When you start with a conclusion and try to jam facts around it, naturally it's not gonna come off too well.

As usual you ignore the salient points. Your own quoted expert said:

"A .38 caliber and .45 caliber are large caliber bullets. They travel at a low velocity, which makes them relatively easy to stop. If they hit someone in the chest it’s like hitting them with a baseball bat..."

"On the other hand, any of these calibers can cause instant clinical death and spontaneous drop if they sever a large vessel (such as an aorta, for example) or hit the heart or brain. In the case of major vessels or the heart, this is relative to a massive drop in blood pressure. In reality the person falls unconscious due to the drop in blood pressure or shock and death follows in only a few seconds or minutes, giving the appearance that he dropped dead?."

His conclusion was:

"In my personal experience, if you shoot a man in the chest he will go into shock and fall down no matter what you shoot him with. If you shoot him with something big enough, he will fall down and die."

Simeon shot everyone with what looked like .45 caliber bullets. and your own expert said If you shoot him with something big enough, he will fall down and die. Guess what - that is exactly what happened. Your own gun shot expert clearly refuted your assertion that the shot guards should have been able to get off a couple of shots after being shot in the chest.

It is pretty obvious to probably everyone on this forum except you that if the shock and damage to the guards' bodies was severe enough to cause immediate drops then they would not be in any physical position to return fire. Your continued attempt to justify this ridiculous assertion is even for you unbelievable to me.

Great! We're agreed; stupidity abounds!

We are not agreed on anything. I said Young made a critical error in judgment due to PTSD. That is a far cry from calling the characters stupid in every episode as you do.

The problem is, even if we accept your assumption about the doors blocking a lot of sound, you have no evidence there were any closed doors in the way. Indeed, all evidence points to the conclusion that the only doors that are routinely closed in normal circumstances, are those leading to rooms or sealed off areas of the ship.

So, in order to accept your theory, we have to accept not one, but two baseless assumptions. That isn't exactly steady ground to form a theory on, especially when one of your baseless assumptions (that doors block all sound) was blatantly proved false. So, are you going to keep modifying your baseless assumptions? Or will you go with Occam's Razor and accept the simplest solution is usually the correct one?

My assumptions are far from baseless or unreasonable.

1. Spaceships are built with heavy dense metal door that block most sound.

2. If decompression occurs on a spaceship open doors put the crew at far greater risk than do closed ones. Doors opened or closed? What is the safer and therefore the far more likely resting state they would be found in?

3. Sound traveling around a corner would be reverberative and would be greatly attenuated.

4. The armory guards were surprised and shot. What is the more likely and plausible scenario why? Were they unaware of Simeon's escape and caught off guard or were they written to be so profoundly stupid to foolishly ignore both walkie talkie warnings and a gunshot and not assume a defensive posture?

You keep throwing around words like baseless and no evidence to distract everyone from just how silly your "well the guards must have been stupid" and “the guards should have been able to get off shots after they were shot” scenarios really are.

I suspect your constant need to call the characters stupid and belittle and criticize SGU’s writing episode after episode must provide you with a sense of importance that is lacking in your life.

My anime fanfiction writing doesn't qualify me for much. Although I'd suggest you get into writing some fanfiction yourself, and the more important aspect, become part of a forum that will critique your writing. Because it's not so much the writing, as it is the critical feedback you get that points out plot holes and stupid actions by characters. Depending the forum, you can get anywhere from a dozen, to hundreds of people commenting. That's the biggest thing that helps you as a writer in sharpening your mind towards these things(you can hear JM talk about this when his script comes back with revisions). My earlier fanfiction was rife with plot holes and sloppy writing, where I had been told several times that it felt like the plot was pushing the characters in one direction, when I should have been writing it so the characters moved the plot. It's a subtle, but important distinction.

Maybe you should have paid a bit more attention in these forums. I don't think you learned much.

Well, it's a good thing I tend to quote from sources to support my viewpoint, instead of, I dunno, making baseless assumptions without quoting any expert sources. Like you. I'm sure everyone here will decide to believe in random internet guy backed by no sources.

Given the passage from your "being shot" reference was quoted out of context; that doesn't say much about your use of them. I rarely have seen a quoted reference actually support your position.

Talking about experiences, I'm sure you've at least been to high school, even if you haven't been to college. Ever write papers? Ever had the teacher tell you about a bibliography, and how important it is to cite sources to back up your viewpoints? There's an important reason for that....

Yes there is. In the future you may consider actually applying their advice on this forum.

Oh, but wait! If you use your experiences from high school and/or college, you would be accused of it being too "convenient that your experiences just happen to support your position in this debate"! And we can't have that.

If they were Walter Mitty moments as I believe yours were then I certainly would deserve to be.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

The gun Simeon used was a Military .45.

Actually it was a 9mm Berretta 92FS. How do I know? I know the gun. Anyone who wants further confirmation can go here for it.
http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Stargate_Universe

Your argument still stands however. The article you use references .38 ammunition, which 9mm has roughly similar, or arguably slighter higher performance to it.

[Jonzey]

I can't believe you guys are still arguing with him. A brick wall would concede defeat before he will.

[garhkal]

He did seem like he was wanting to give up info just after he got stomped into the dirt.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I can't believe you guys are still arguing with him. A brick wall would concede defeat before he will.

[Blackhole]

Very Funny!

[ZoSo]

I don't have a problem with a 9mm dropping someone in one hit. I just don't like how they seem to die immediately. I know it's done this way on screen for a number of reasons, it just feels kinda corny to me. I'm not saying they would be able to shoot back, especially since they were surprised (therefore they'd have no adrenaline in their system to lessen the initial shock of being struck). I'm just saying that you usually don't lose consciousness before you hit the floor barring a headshot or spinal cord injury.

But seeing people all torn up and barely clinging to life ain't all that fun to watch anyway so no biggie. It's scary what tenacity the human body has sometimes.

[Gollumpus]

I can't believe you guys are still arguing with him. A brick wall would concede defeat before he will.

It's all in good fun.

regards,
G.

[Blackhole]

I don't have a problem with a 9mm dropping someone in one hit. I just don't like how they seem to die immediately. I know it's done this way on screen for a number of reasons, it just feels kinda corny to me. I'm not saying they would be able to shoot back, especially since they were surprised (therefore they'd have no adrenaline in their system to lessen the initial shock of being struck). I'm just saying that you usually don't lose consciousness before you hit the floor barring a headshot or spinal cord injury.

But seeing people all torn up and barely clinging to life ain't all that fun to watch anyway so no biggie. It's scary what tenacity the human body has sometimes.

From prior page:

"A .38 caliber and .45 caliber are large caliber bullets. They travel at a low velocity, which makes them relatively easy to stop. If they hit someone in the chest it's like hitting them with a baseball bat..."

"On the other hand, any of these calibers can cause instant clinical death and spontaneous drop if they sever a large vessel (such as an aorta, for example) or hit the heart or brain. In the case of major vessels or the heart, this is relative to a massive drop in blood pressure. In reality the person falls unconscious due to the drop in blood pressure or shock and death follows in only a few seconds or minutes, giving the appearance that he dropped dead?."

His conclusion was:

"In my personal experience, if you shoot a man in the chest he will go into shock and fall down no matter what you shoot him with. If you shoot him with something big enough, he will fall down and die."

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I don't have a problem with a 9mm dropping someone in one hit. I just don't like how they seem to die immediately. I know it's done this way on screen for a number of reasons, it just feels kinda corny to me. I'm not saying they would be able to shoot back, especially since they were surprised (therefore they'd have no adrenaline in their system to lessen the initial shock of being struck). I'm just saying that you usually don't lose consciousness before you hit the floor barring a headshot or spinal cord injury.

But seeing people all torn up and barely clinging to life ain't all that fun to watch anyway so no biggie. It's scary what tenacity the human body has sometimes.

They didn't die immediately. Hence the scene in the infirmary as TJ and chums struggle to cope with the wounded. In fact only one person Simeon shot died at all, sometime after being shot.