How would Alt Camile contributed to Novus's gene pool?

[jsonitsac]

One thing that we've got to remember is that in terms of establishing a long term population of humans is that fertile women are more important than men. Remember, a woman can only have on baby at a time but a man can impregnate multiple women. You would need, at least for the first few generations, more girls than boys. Until you can reach some kind of "magic number" where monogamy will be sustainable. In short, as a fertile female Wray would have been too valuable not to have had a baby.

This does mean that there will be some degree of inbreeding probably occurred, at least in the early generations of the Novus population. The term for this is called Pedigree Collapse.

[Gollumpus]

So much concern over one character who has a sexual orientation which is different from the rest of the folks. How much thought are people putting towards the problems involved in having multiple pairings?

As I've noted elsewhere, some folks seem to think that there would be some set pairs (like Young/TJ, Scott/Chloe, Greer/Park) while everyone else is off doing it like monkeys. What sort of societal problems are they going to have due to petty jealousies? What about some folks being a logical pairing but they have a strong distaste or even mild hate for each other? What if the respective fathers all dislike one another? Can you imagine birthday parties for TJ if she had children by Young and Varro? And what if Rush and Telford had made it through the gate and they each sired a child with TJ? Even better, what if Greer, Rush and Telford were all fathers of children with Park? Would Greer's kid beat up on Telford's kid? Would Rush Jr. hate Greer Jr. and Telford Jr.? It could doom their society...

regards,
G.

[The_Asgard_live]

So much concern over one character who has a sexual orientation which is different from the rest of the folks. How much thought are people putting towards the problems involved in having multiple pairings?

So much concern over others concerns...

To be honest with you, the first thing to pop into my head when they introduced the society was... that it wasn't enough for the writers to introduce a new love triangle every other week (which the crew manages to survive without anyone killing anyone else), now they introduce a whole society based on "who is frakking multiple whos" pentagons!. Second thought on the subject even before Wray was... gee I hope they don't have relations with their descendants, that is really going to ruin the episode for me.

[Gollumpus]

So much concern over others concerns...

Meh, I'm just a caring kind of guy.

To be honest with you, the first thing to pop into my head when they introduced the society was... that it wasn't enough for the writers to introduce a new love triangle every other week (which the crew manages to survive without anyone killing anyone else), now they introduce a whole society based on "who is frakking multiple whos" pentagons!. Second thought on the subject even before Wray was... gee I hope they don't have relations with their descendants, that is really going to ruin the episode for me.

The ancestors meeting their descendants type of story is fairly commonplace. In 50/50 hindsight it makes perfect sense for the writers to have introduced this story. When the hoped for evacuation from Destiny to Earth occurred, the sun's activity affected the stargate in a manner which we have already seen from previous story lines. I guess we should have been expecting something like this for a while. It's also pretty obvious that the writers would address the who begat who and so on since relationships between characters is a major theme of SGU, which is why they were doing those relationship type of story lines.

That so much attention is being paid to one specific character's potential interactions, based solely upon her sexual orientation, does so much discredit to so many people. There are larger issues of procreation in that story, involving ALL of the people from Destiny. To focus on just one is just plain silly, perhaps even juvenile.

As far as there being ancestor/descendant relationships, who cares? The story in that regard is not should it happen at all, but rather why should it happen if it does happen? There's been around 2,000 years of gene pool mixing in that group so there'd be no biological reason why it shouldn't happen. The question would be, what sort of relationship would develop so quickly that one of the descendants would want to have sex with one of Destiny's crew? I don't think they were going to be around long enough for such relationships to develop. Thinking solely about sexual relations, I think it's pretty easy to see why *some* (many/most?) members of the crew might want to stay with the descendants due to the ratio of male to females.

regards,
G.

[The_Asgard_live]

That so much attention is being paid to one specific character's potential interactions, based solely upon her sexual orientation, does so much discredit to so many people. There are larger issues of procreation in that story, involving ALL of the people from Destiny. To focus on just one is just plain silly, perhaps even juvenile.

I am not sure how discredit, silly or juvenile factor into it. How do you quantify "so much attention"? Maybe it just seems that way to you. Based on your posts on the subject, if I was a betting man, I would wager you would think that almost no attention at all should be paid to it. By comparison, I believe at least 3 or 4 threads have been created/deleted to speculate on the significance of purple fruit.

I don't know about you, but I tire of who is having sex with who on Destiny. That they would increase the amount of sex and partners to form a society to me is par for the course with Destiny's crew. How Wray has to deal with it and the interesting/bizarre things people say on the subject are far more interesting, at least to me.

As far as there being ancestor/descendant relationships, who cares?

It was a bit of snark on my part about the amount of time spent on relationships/relations on the show. Not meant to be dissected literally. Is there any technical reason why they can't have relations with their ancestors... I guess not. But some of them look like the crew and to me it would be creepy.

[ckwongau]

To settle this, My Best friend is a lesbian and my other friend runs the LGBTQ at my university, so i put it to a vote, how many women and gay men, would have hetrosexual sex for the means of procreating a new civilization, i even went as far as saying they would raise the child together so in essence would be a couple.
End Result......All of them said that their sexual orientation was not an issue when it was survival of the human race, they would gladly have and raise children, as there is nothing stopping them from not feeling a sexual connection to other parent, and most said they would even possibly pick a gay man/ lesbian to do it with, so there was no actual attraction on any side. so in conclusion....not a problem, this is what must be done to keep the human race going.

Why do people assume Alt Camile needed to have sex with men to have children, as i put it in the beginning of the thread.
All Alt Camile needed was a few test tube of fresh sperm., and she can finish the job herself .without the need to touch anybody else.
Just like many women who purchase frozen sperm on Earth.


The point i am trying to make is Alt Camile doesn't have to compromise her belief or life style , just to have children.
But whatever choice Alt Camile make , it was her choice, we should respect it .But we should not make assumption about how she needed change her life style or belief for having children.
There was nothing wrong with her life style, and there wasn't need to change it .She can have children without changing anything about her.


But the reason i started this thread is to let people openly talk about the Alt Camile situation , instead of making dirty asssumption or judgment in their head, if we discusss it like Adult , at least we can get it out of our system.

[Gollumpus]

I am not sure how discredit, silly or juvenile factor into it. How do you quantify "so much attention"? Maybe it just seems that way to you. Based on your posts on the subject, if I was a betting man, I would wager you would think that almost no attention at all should be paid to it. By comparison, I believe at least 3 or 4 threads have been created/deleted to speculate on the significance of purple fruit.

I don't know about you, but I tire of who is having sex with who on Destiny. That they would increase the amount of sex and partners to form a society to me is par for the course with Destiny's crew. How Wray has to deal with it and the interesting/bizarre things people say on the subject are far more interesting, at least to me.

It's not what is being said on the subject, it's the tone of some of what is being said. Maybe I just expect more from people. And while humour is something which I personally like to inject into conversation when-ever possible (and appropriate), I reserve the right to criticize others for what I feel is inappropriate or misplaced levity. Others should feel free to do the same to me.

It's not just a question of "does Wray lie back and think of Novus or impregnate herself with sperm from a test tube?" (something which I'm pretty sure they do not have), this is a question which applies to every woman on that planet. Just because TJ or Chloe or Park or James etc are heterosexual (or at least we have seen that they are quite willing to have sexual intercourse) does not mean that they would be any more willing to "lie back and think of Novus" with any guy other than their current significant other. Wray's sexual orientation is used as a means for us to start talking about the subject, but we are supposed to take that next step and apply what we talk about to the group as a whole. However, talk mostly just stops with discussions of "what would Wray do?" and we neglect the rest of the group except for some discussion of whether TJ would have a child by Varro.

I think there should be lots of attention given to this subject as it would have an effect in determining major aspects of how the Novan (Novusian?) society would develop (you lost that nickle). If you were tired of who was having sex with who on Destiny you'd really be bored with events on Novus. The basic issues of survival in early Novan society would be: food, water, shelter, sex, and any other things needed to exist. Who is sleeping with who would be of great importance, so much so you'd be even more tired of it than you are now. Might a Novan twist on the old saying, "Have sex for love, but marry for money" become "Marry for love, but have sex for genes"? Might such a thing become commonplace in Novan society? You can marry someone, you just can't have children with them? Why should we assume that after X number of generations would revert to how we as a society operate?

Do we need 3 or 4 threads all saying pretty much the same thing? No. Having three or four threads (or more) which examine different aspects of the various questions could be very interesting, assuming they got past what Wray thinks about when she is lying down or to what uses she would put her favourite cup.

regards,
G.

PS - might this all be some kind of plot by those Bene Gesserit witches to breed a Kwisatz Haderach?

[The_Asgard_live]

It's not what is being said on the subject, it's the tone of some of what is being said. Maybe I just expect more from people. And while humour is something which I personally like to inject into conversation when-ever possible (and appropriate), I reserve the right to criticize others for what I feel is inappropriate or misplaced levity. Others should feel free to do the same to me.

One man's Louis CK is another man's carrot top.

It's not just a question of "does Wray lie back and think of Novus or impregnate herself with sperm from a test tube?" (something which I'm pretty sure they do not have), this is a question which applies to every woman on that planet. Just because TJ or Chloe or Park or James etc are heterosexual (or at least we have seen that they are quite willing to have sexual intercourse) does not mean that they would be any more willing to "lie back and think of Novus" with any guy other than their current significant other. Wray's sexual orientation is used as a means for us to start talking about the subject, but we are supposed to take that next step and apply what we talk about to the group as a whole. However, talk mostly just stops with discussions of "what would Wray do?" and we neglect the rest of the group except for some discussion of whether TJ would have a child by Varro.

You are of course right that the other women on the planet are also going to have a hard time with the idea of being baby machines (most likely). It is also worthy of a discussion, but I still maintain that Wray's case is more interesting and obviously more controversial.

The basic issues of survival in early Novan society would be: food, water, shelter, sex, and any other things needed to exist. Who is sleeping with who would be of great importance, so much so you'd be even more tired of it than you are now. Might a Novan twist on the old saying, "Have sex for love, but marry for money" become "Marry for love, but have sex for genes"? Might such a thing become commonplace in Novan society? You can marry someone, you just can't have children with them? Why should we assume that after X number of generations would revert to how we as a society operate?

To be honest, the most interesting aspect of the episode to me is how far a society founded by scientists possessing current (and very advanced) knowledge could advance. Wray is a distant second.

PS - might this all be some kind of plot by those Bene Gesserit witches to breed a Kwisatz Haderach?

Fear is the mind killer.

[Gollumpus]

One man's Louis CK is another man's carrot top.

Carrot Top? Meh, he needs to loosen up on stage...

You are of course right that the other women on the planet are also going to have a hard time with the idea of being baby machines (most likely). It is also worthy of a discussion, but I still maintain that Wray's case is more interesting and obviously more controversial.

It is interesting and controversial to me only as a side note to the larger issue of how the breeding program will affect Novan culture. Obviously "other Wray" had children. Apparently "our Wray" does not seem to have any problem with that, perhaps since it was not her who had to make that decision but her other self. Would "our Wray" come to the same decisions? The larger issue of how the breeding program will affect Novan culture is by far the more interesting issue.

To be honest, the most interesting aspect of the episode to me is how far a society founded by scientists possessing current (and very advanced) knowledge could advance. Wray is a distant second.

Current (and very advanced) knowledge but without the tools to apply a lot (most?) of that knowledge, yes.

regards,
G.

PS - so who is going to sire the Harkonnen line?

[Nth Chevron]

Lets just hope there's no Freddy Krueger adaptation with someone walking around with 5 Gom' jabbar's on each hand ...

N.C

[GKVector]

Remember, a woman can only have on baby at a time but a man can impregnate multiple women. You would need, at least for the first few generations, more girls than boys. Until you can reach some kind of "magic number" where monogamy will be sustainable. In short, as a fertile female Wray would have been too valuable not to have had a baby.

This does mean that there will be some degree of inbreeding probably occurred, at least in the early generations of the Novus population. The term for this is called Pedigree Collapse.

Biology and genetics are not my strong points by any means, but I believe that in order to diversify a genetic pool as small as this (80 people), they'd have to pair virtually every male with every female in the first generation, at least as far as practical. And with a scientific community, they'd know that and take steps.

[morrismike]

Biology and genetics are not my strong points by any means, but I believe that in order to diversify a genetic pool as small as this (80 people), they'd have to pair virtually every male with every female in the first generation, at least as far as practical. And with a scientific community, they'd know that and take steps.

no
no
no

If relations occur with people further seperated than 2nd cousins, then everything will be OK. If there is only 15 females then the next generation should have at least 30 females. When those 30 female are available there are still 60 males of the original crew available plus at least 30 young men. For a while it would suck being a young man looking for a wife but thems the breaks. There should not even be difficulties avoiding blood relations (let alone 2nd cousins). The real issue is encouraging those with good genes to have more kids and those with bad genes (dumb kids, nearsighted kid, sickly, etc.) to stop or at least switch partners. In a society with no money, adequate food and water, male providers, etc. the families would be a couple and have 5 or 6 children. Societal pressure will keep incest under control. It would also be a safe bet those 80 folks contain about 60% of the diversity in the entire species, good lord the average IQ of these folks is well above 100 and I seriously doubt there is the human refuse mucking up the gene pool like we have on earth.

[eonflux]

all human beings have a desire to procreate, and it's obvious that it exists with straight AND gay couples.

I dont know where you get your insight from but this is just not true.

Anyway I think she did everything to help get the settlement going. Looking at her nature in SGU she is like that.

[morrismike]

I dont know where you get your insight from but this is just not true.

Anyway I think she did everything to help get the settlement going. Looking at her nature in SGU she is like that.

millions of gay people have kids, some even resort to adoption to obtain
Having kids is hardwired into women just like making them is hardwired into men. We all choose to engage in whatever type of relationships trip our trigger but the birds and the bees rules all.

[thekillman]

simple fact:

if being gay is natural

it has to be genetic

if it's genetic, homosexuals would've had to procreate to pass it on


ergo homosexuals can procreate.



it's just that in modern times, there's a homophobia (no denying it) where men and women alike have problems with even implied homosexuality.


2000+ years ago in greece, it was accepted as a natural extension of friendship. it's just that the phobia today makes many aspects of it hard to imagine for many people because they chose not to think about it