How would Alt Camile contributed to Novus's gene pool?

[traylormatt]

Though I fully agree that ones sexual orientation is not a choice and they are born how they are and absolutely perfect regardless of if they like men, women or both. I would still say that the act of sexual interaction does not necessarily determine ones orientation.

Look at ancient civilizations. Perfectly normal for younger boys to engage with older respected men. Sometimes even seen as a sign of respect towards the older man if they were a teacher who is imparting knowledge. For any people in ancient greece and rome, having intimate relations was much more common between two men than a man and a woman. This nature obviously changed over time, and unfortunately, same sex relations becoming disgusting to some people, and very wrongly so.

For someone like Wray, I can imagine at the very least she would be able to comfortably had sex with a male she cares about and respects, like many of the crew members on Destiny, especially after another few years. Would she enjoy it? who knows, though many lesbians would be disgusted at the though of having sex with a man, some would not be disgusted and could enjoy it. We do not know what her characters views are this topic are.

She does not seem like a person that hates men, nor does she seem uncomfortable around them. She may never truely love any of them but she could love and care for them in a different way.

I think that for her to decide to do this would be a very big step that she would have to take, but her character seems to be the kind that could take it with maturity and a clear mind.

We still don't know several other factors regarding her sexuality. We do not know if she is homosexual or bisexual, we don't know if she has ever had sex with a man in her past. For all the audience could know, her current lesbian relationship could e her very first lesbian relationship and up until then she had only heterosexual relationships.

The point it, we don't know.

[The_Asgard_live]

Though I fully agree that ones sexual orientation is not a choice and they are born how they are and absolutely perfect regardless of if they like men, women or both. I would still say that the act of sexual interaction does not necessarily determine ones orientation.

I'd say that 'everyone being absolutely perfect' is perhaps overstating the case.

For any people in ancient greece and rome, having intimate relations was much more common between two men than a man and a woman.

Much more out in the open, sure, much more common than between a man and a woman? I'd need stats on that.

This nature obviously changed over time, and unfortunately, same sex relations becoming disgusting to some people, and very wrongly so.

Why unfortunately and very wrong? What if the sexual orientation born to you is such that you find the idea of engaging in relations with the same sex to be anything from uncomfortable to disgusting? Do you not afford them the same "absolutely perfect regardless..." status?

For someone like Wray, I can imagine at the very least she would be able to comfortably had sex with a male she cares about and respects, like many of the crew members on Destiny, especially after another few years.

Why do you believe that having sex with someone outside of your orientation is so trivial? And in this case, we aren't talking just once, we are likely talking many times with multiple partners. I've seen the theme repeated here. That sex is somehow this other unrelated thing to orientation. Let me ask you this, trying to remain as G rated as possible. If sex is simply a mechanical matter that people can do and probably enjoy despite their preferences, could you engage in consensual relations with your mother or sister? Its not really so trivial to just turn sex into a mechanical thing that feels good and you can do with just anyone...

She does not seem like a person that hates men, nor does she seem uncomfortable around them. She may never truely love any of them but she could love and care for them in a different way.

Its not a question of 'hating' anyone.

The point it, we don't know.

You are right, we don't know. She could be a bi-sexual. And if thats the case then the writers have copped out. No dark hip edgy points scored. Wouldn't that literally make Wray's sexuality 'deus ex machina'? Or am I using that wrong?

[Nth Chevron]

"Its a catch-22, the amount of alcohol I would need would literally kill me...".

They didnt have Alcohol, your point is invalid

N.C

[traylormatt]

I'd say that 'everyone being absolutely perfect' is perhaps overstating the case.

Much more out in the open, sure, much more common than between a man and a woman? I'd need stats on that.

Why unfortunately and very wrong? What if the sexual orientation born to you is such that you find the idea of engaging in relations with the same sex to be anything from uncomfortable to disgusting? Do you not afford them the same "absolutely perfect regardless..." status?

Why do you believe that having sex with someone outside of your orientation is so trivial? And in this case, we aren't talking just once, we are likely talking many times with multiple partners. I've seen the theme repeated here. That sex is somehow this other unrelated thing to orientation. Let me ask you this, trying to remain as G rated as possible. If sex is simply a mechanical matter that people can do and probably enjoy despite their preferences, could you engage in consensual relations with your mother or sister? Its not really so trivial to just turn sex into a mechanical thing that feels good and you can do with just anyone...

Its not a question of 'hating' anyone.

You are right, we don't know. She could be a bi-sexual. And if thats the case then the writers have copped out. No dark hip edgy points scored. Wouldn't that literally make Wray's sexuality 'deus ex machina'? Or am I using that wrong?

also trying to keep it PG. With the ancient civilisations, all I can tell you is a documentary I watched on the history channel where it discussed the sexual orientation or men in either ancient civilisations (now i can't remember if it was rome or greece" but when the men would get married, they would be so uncomfortable sleeping with their new wives, a way to overcome it was to shave the womans head and bring the man from where he was with his male friends to where she was, and have sex with her in a darkened room, mimicing the actions he would do with a male, until he was more comfortable with her. How accurate that is, you would have to contact the history channel.

I think that anyone's choice of sexual orientation is fine. Some do find it disgusting the thought of same sex relations and some find opposite sex relations disgusting. which also goes into your next point. What I was meaning was the persecution of people for same sex relationships was bad and in my opinion very wrong. People are entitled to believe that same sex relations is wrong, it is perfectly in their right to, but when it lead to killings and people hiding who they are, then that is wrong, as i believe most people would agree. I am certainly not intending to trivialise the the point of her having sex with someone of the opposite sex. I did not trivialise it. You can read into how you wish, i did not say "hey she can just do it, she'll probably find it fun" no, I said she may not enjoy it, I don't know. But i said I can imagine that if she found someone she is comfortable with, she may be able to engage in these activities in order to preserve their culture. That is all. I also said that for her to decide to do this would be a very big step and if she were to take it she would take it with maturity and a clear mind. Meaning she would not be pressured into it and only do it if she felt comfortable. so please, if you wish to claim I am trivializing something, please read the entire post and don't just reply to which parts you think you can attack on. If I have already explained myself in the original post, I do not expect I should have to again.

You are right, it is not about hating any one. I was pointing out that she can be comfortable with men, she seems to be able to generate close and strong bonds with them. With these bonds she may be able to create caring and loving ones that could make her comfortable enough, given time, to be able to engage in sex with some of them. In the same way the heterosexual women will not just have sex with every single man from Destiny, but they might be willing to sleep with more men than they would have usually done back on Earth, for the conservation of their people there. This is again not to say they would sleep with EVERYONE but simply those they feel comfortable with. I do not know though. I know that if i were to engage in homosexual relations with another man because it could somehow benefit everyone preserve mankind. I would only be able to do it if I had a very close connection to them on a personal level, beyond anything physical. I would not see myself ever falling in love with a man or finding them as sexually attractive as a woman, but if it were to benefit the future of our people, I would certainly feel better going into it if I cared about the person. This could be how Wray would feel. She may never feel massively attracted to the person but can care about them on a personal level which can make her attracted to them in a different way. Not raw animal magnetism, but a loving caring bond and desire to have children leading to her thinking having children with that particular person(s) would be her preferred choice.
Which is also suggests that once again I am not trivialising sex as a mechanical thing like you suggested, which you would know if you responded to the entire post, I said she would need to have a close connection to the male members to engage in this activity with.

So please do not think I am trivializing something like this like you suggested with the mother daughter thing. I said nothing in my post to suggest that is was mechanical. Anything that may have seemed that way was certainly then clarified later in the post. It is easy to take something and make it into what you want it to be.

[traylormatt]

They didnt have Alcohol, your point is invalid

N.C

Brody will knock up something in no time at all.

[The_Asgard_live]

also trying to keep it PG. With the ancient civilisations, all I can tell you is a documentary I watched on the history channel where it discussed the sexual orientation or men in either ancient civilisations (now i can't remember if it was rome or greece" but when the men would get married, they would be so uncomfortable sleeping with their new wives, a way to overcome it was to shave the womans head and bring the man from where he was with his male friends to where she was, and have sex with her in a darkened room, mimicing the actions he would do with a male, until he was more comfortable with her. How accurate that is, you would have to contact the history channel.

I think that anyone's choice of sexual orientation is fine. Some do find it disgusting the thought of same sex relations and some find opposite sex relations disgusting. which also goes into your next point. What I was meaning was the persecution of people for same sex relationships was bad and in my opinion very wrong. People are entitled to believe that same sex relations is wrong, it is perfectly in their right to, but when it lead to killings and people hiding who they are, then that is wrong, as i believe most people would agree. I am certainly not intending to trivialise the the point of her having sex with someone of the opposite sex. I did not trivialise it. You can read into how you wish, i did not say "hey she can just do it, she'll probably find it fun" no, I said she may not enjoy it, I don't know. But i said I can imagine that if she found someone she is comfortable with, she may be able to engage in these activities in order to preserve their culture. That is all. I also said that for her to decide to do this would be a very big step and if she were to take it she would take it with maturity and a clear mind. Meaning she would not be pressured into it and only do it if she felt comfortable. so please, if you wish to claim I am trivializing something, please read the entire post and don't just reply to which parts you think you can attack on. If I have already explained myself in the original post, I do not expect I should have to again.

You are right, it is not about hating any one. I was pointing out that she can be comfortable with men, she seems to be able to generate close and strong bonds with them. With these bonds she may be able to create caring and loving ones that could make her comfortable enough, given time, to be able to engage in sex with some of them. In the same way the heterosexual women will not just have sex with every single man from Destiny, but they might be willing to sleep with more men than they would have usually done back on Earth, for the conservation of their people there. This is again not to say they would sleep with EVERYONE but simply those they feel comfortable with. I do not know though. I know that if i were to engage in homosexual relations with another man because it could somehow benefit everyone preserve mankind. I would only be able to do it if I had a very close connection to them on a personal level, beyond anything physical. I would not see myself ever falling in love with a man or finding them as sexually attractive as a woman, but if it were to benefit the future of our people, I would certainly feel better going into it if I cared about the person. This could be how Wray would feel. She may never feel massively attracted to the person but can care about them on a personal level which can make her attracted to them in a different way. Not raw animal magnetism, but a loving caring bond and desire to have children leading to her thinking having children with that particular person(s) would be her preferred choice.
Which is also suggests that once again I am not trivialising sex as a mechanical thing like you suggested, which you would know if you responded to the entire post, I said she would need to have a close connection to the male members to engage in this activity with.

So please do not think I am trivializing something like this like you suggested with the mother daughter thing. I said nothing in my post to suggest that is was mechanical. Anything that may have seemed that way was certainly then clarified later in the post. It is easy to take something and make it into what you want it to be.

Now now, its so easy for one to get their feathers ruffled. First, I wasn't attack anything other than what I believed to be your reasoning. Certainly not you. I left your whole post intact this time (something I normally wouldn't do as it just seems bulky to me). I pick what I like to respond to and don't have any intention of taking things out of context.

So please do not think I am trivializing something like this like you suggested with the mother daughter thing. I said nothing in my post to suggest that is was mechanical.

Of what you said, this to me suggested that...

Though I fully agree that ones sexual orientation is not a choice and they are born how they are and absolutely perfect regardless of if they like men, women or both. I would still say that the act of sexual interaction does not necessarily determine ones orientation.

You appear, at least to me, to be making a distinction between the act (mechanical interaction) and the orientation (everything else).
Additionally, you said,

For someone like Wray, I can imagine at the very least she would be able to comfortably had sex with a male she cares about and respects, like many of the crew members on Destiny, especially after another few years. Would she enjoy it? who knows, though many lesbians would be disgusted at the though of having sex with a man, some would not be disgusted and could enjoy it. We do not know what her characters views are this topic are.

At the 'very least' (meaning at minimum) Wray, a lesbian would be able to have sex comfortably with someone of the opposite sex if she cared and respected them, given enough time? Even though you went on to say many would find it disgusting, some might enjoy it? Isn't a lesbian that enjoys heterosexual sex at a minimum bi, or full on hetero? and vice versa? The concept of finding any enjoyment in same sex relations and still not being gay is something new to me. I haven't really seen it argued until this episode. To me, it would be akin to saying to a homosexual.. "If you haven't had sex with the opposite sex, how do you know you wouldn't like it". To me that seems rude.

As far as who she feels comfortable with/respects, that may not be an option. They have to plan out their pairings, not necessarily their preferences (at least for breeding purposes)

So, in short, I responded to your whole post, only quoted part of it. Its a waste to argue about what you did or didn't say. If you say you didn't mean it the way I took it, thats fine, apologies. Maybe I clarified why I took it that way, maybe not (also take into account, there are others that seem to be arguing something similar).

[traylormatt]

Now now, its so easy for one to get their feathers ruffled. First, I wasn't attack anything other than what I believed to be your reasoning. Certainly not you. I left your whole post intact this time (something I normally wouldn't do as it just seems bulky to me). I pick what I like to respond to and don't have any intention of taking things out of context.

Of what you said, this to me suggested that...

You appear, at least to me, to be making a distinction between the act (mechanical interaction) and the orientation (everything else).
Additionally, you said,

At the 'very least' (meaning at minimum) Wray, a lesbian would be able to have sex comfortably with someone of the opposite sex if she cared and respected them, given enough time? Even though you went on to say many would find it disgusting, some might enjoy it? Isn't a lesbian that enjoys heterosexual sex at a minimum bi, or full on hetero? and vice versa? The concept of finding any enjoyment in same sex relations and still not being gay is something new to me. I haven't really seen it argued until this episode. To me, it would be akin to saying to a homosexual.. "If you haven't had sex with the opposite sex, how do you know you wouldn't like it". To me that seems rude.

As far as who she feels comfortable with/respects, that may not be an option. They have to plan out their pairings, not necessarily their preferences (at least for breeding purposes)

So, in short, I responded to your whole post, only quoted part of it. Its a waste to argue about what you did or didn't say. If you say you didn't mean it the way I took it, thats fine, apologies. Maybe I clarified why I took it that way, maybe not (also take into account, there are others that seem to be arguing something similar).

Regarding the sexual orientation, I believe that for the purposes of this episode and their situation, her having sex with a man would not change her orientation as what she is, which we don't know yet as it has not been fully explored. But I certainly did not mean to make it into anything mechanical. Which is why I later went on to say it would be a very big decision for her.

When I said someone like Wray, I was not meaning her as a lesbian, I was meaning her personality. She seems very logical and works through things step by step. As such I can see her willing to do something she may not enjoy for the good of preservation, but only if she were willing to. I meant she could possibly enjoy it. We do not know if she would or wouldn't. Yes of course she may hate it and I would imagine that most lesbians would not enjoy sex with a man. But I simply meant that there is a chance she could, I didn't say she would, I said I do not know. Maybe she does not know either.

As for your comment about it not being an option. That seems a little weird. I don't think they would simply be breeding, she, and all of the crew, would have an option surely. Obviously if they had all agreed to purely have sex for the sake of breeding, thus taking all emotion out of it and it truly being something mechanical, then possibly, but I find it very hard to think that they could completely separate the action with the emotion. But hey, they may be able to, I have never been in that situation.

And you have clarified why you took it that way now. And I understand that other people are discussing it, and I know sometimes I reply to everything as a whole rather than just individual things, generalizing the sentiments of what others have said into just one reply.

Also I think I haven't really put forward that the reason I say "I don't know" is that no one knows. Not just for Wray's position but for anyones. If there was a homosexual person to reply and say "I can tell you that she would certainly not be willing to do that.." they would be wrong, as they are not her. In the same way if another homosexual person said "I can tell you she definitely would do that, I would" they would also be wrong as they are not her. She may end up sleeping with a man, or falling in love with a man and discovering that she can love a man like she loves a woman. We may find she has always been bi, as I said earlier, her current relationship could be her first ever homosexual one and before it she thought she was heterosexual. People are constantly discovering themselves and unless someone out there IS the fictional character Wray, then they really can't say her feeling on it, regardless of their personal orientation or what they have experienced. they can have a perfectly educated guess, but it would still only be a guess but probably better than many others regarding the topic.

[The_Asgard_live]

Regarding the sexual orientation, I believe that for the purposes of this episode and their situation, her having sex with a man would not change her orientation as what she is, which we don't know yet as it has not been fully explored. But I certainly did not mean to make it into anything mechanical. Which is why I later went on to say it would be a very big decision for her.

Ah, to clarify my thinking. I don't think the act of having sex with a man changes her orientation either. I think the act of having sex with a man and enjoying it calls into question what her true sexuality even is. Lets be honest, even if she did decide to 'take one for the team' so to speak, it would quite likely be traumatic for all involved. On her part it might involve crying or a general appearance of repulsion and from the guys point of view it might feel like he was raping her.

When I said someone like Wray, I was not meaning her as a lesbian, I was meaning her personality. She seems very logical and works through things step by step. As such I can see her willing to do something she may not enjoy for the good of preservation, but only if she were willing to. I meant she could possibly enjoy it. We do not know if she would or wouldn't. Yes of course she may hate it and I would imagine that most lesbians would not enjoy sex with a man. But I simply meant that there is a chance she could, I didn't say she would, I said I do not know. Maybe she does not know either.

As for your comment about it not being an option. That seems a little weird. I don't think they would simply be breeding, she, and all of the crew, would have an option surely. Obviously if they had all agreed to purely have sex for the sake of breeding, thus taking all emotion out of it and it truly being something mechanical, then possibly, but I find it very hard to think that they could completely separate the action with the emotion. But hey, they may be able to, I have never been in that situation.

Again, to clarify my thinking... I am assuming that each women would need to have like 3-5 children with 3-5 different men (this has nothing to do with who they love). Which means multiple sexing with multiple men. I assume figuring out who should be the 3-5 men is something that would almost literally need to be mapped out with pen and paper. Like a literal breeding schedule of the first few generations. You breed with these 3-5, then your children breed with those.. etc. The only way she gets lucky and gets to chose those she loves/respects is if they decide because she is 'taking one for the team' she should get her choice of the 3-5. But other than that, its out of necessity not preference.

And you have clarified why you took it that way now. And I understand that other people are discussing it, and I know sometimes I reply to everything as a whole rather than just individual things, generalizing the sentiments of what others have said into just one reply.

Got nothing, just quoted it!

[traylormatt]

Asgard,

I completely get your thinking and I agree. For it to work they would have to map it out pretty carefully. I was just meaning in the context of the discussion. For it to be a viable way of reproduction in the future, they would have to discuss who would need to reproduce with who. And I agree that perhaps as it could be seen as more traumatic for her, she may be able to chose who she would partner with. This is why, regarding the "take one for the team" I think she would be able to enjoy it (when I say enjoy i mean, be less repulsed by or more comfortable about it) with someone that she genuinely cares about beyond the idea of simple reproduction. This is not to say she would be all "oh baby. now THAT is what I have been missing. mama wants some more sugar" but rather she would care about them and engage in a loving act with someone she loves or multiple people she loves and who love her or deeply care and most importantly respect her (loves in one way or another). I don't mean respect as in everyone who has ever slept with another person deeply cares and respects them, because we all know that is simply not true. But I think with these very educated and seemingly respectful people, they would be understanding of her situation and not pressure her into anything (or anyone for that matter) but that she would feel more comfortable with a man who she knows not only cares about her but also respects her.

[Naquadah_nut]

To settle this, My Best friend is a lesbian and my other friend runs the LGBTQ at my university, so i put it to a vote, how many women and gay men, would have hetrosexual sex for the means of procreating a new civilization, i even went as far as saying they would raise the child together so in essence would be a couple.
End Result......All of them said that their sexual orientation was not an issue when it was survival of the human race, they would gladly have and raise children, as there is nothing stopping them from not feeling a sexual connection to other parent, and most said they would even possibly pick a gay man/ lesbian to do it with, so there was no actual attraction on any side. so in conclusion....not a problem, this is what must be done to keep the human race going.

[The_Asgard_live]

To settle this, My Best friend is a lesbian and my other friend runs the LGBTQ at my university, so i put it to a vote, how many women and gay men, would have hetrosexual sex for the means of procreating a new civilization, i even went as far as saying they would raise the child together so in essence would be a couple.

Far from settling anything (for anyone other than the group polled), however interesting nonetheless!

End Result......All of them said that their sexual orientation was not an issue when it was survival of the human race, they would gladly have and raise children, as there is nothing stopping them from not feeling a sexual connection to other parent,

Isn't homosexuality the 'nothing stopping them' from not feeling a sexual connection? How do you feel a sexual connection with someone you aren't sexually oriented to feel a sexual connection with. Though there are a lot of negatives in what you said, but I think I am reading it right.

and most said they would even possibly pick a gay man/ lesbian to do it with, so there was no actual attraction on any side.

Why would for their side (the LBQUITET whatever side) this even be an issue? How can a homosexual be sexually attracted to someone of the other gender and still be a homosexual? Its beyond weird to me. That literally is incompatible with being a homosexual.

[D Toccs]

To settle this, My Best friend is a lesbian and my other friend runs the LGBTQ at my university, so i put it to a vote, how many women and gay men, would have hetrosexual sex for the means of procreating a new civilization, i even went as far as saying they would raise the child together so in essence would be a couple.
End Result......All of them said that their sexual orientation was not an issue when it was survival of the human race, they would gladly have and raise children, as there is nothing stopping them from not feeling a sexual connection to other parent, and most said they would even possibly pick a gay man/ lesbian to do it with, so there was no actual attraction on any side. so in conclusion....not a problem, this is what must be done to keep the human race going.

I don't believe a word of this.

To clarify, I believe that for some gay/lesbian people, heterosexual sex for the sake of humanity may be acceptable, but for others it would not be, it is all up to the individual.

What I don't believe, is that you actually went out an "surveyed" a group of gay/lesbian people in order to come up with these "results".
I am also dubious of anyone who would start the conversation with "my best friend is a lesbian so . ."

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

as it has been discussed in other threads, just because she is a lesbian doesn't mean that she can't have children or do whats necessary for the start of a civilization.

I loved Wray's simple delight at the idea that all of those children were her descendants and yes, simply being a lesbian doesn't deprive her of the ability to have children

...

Otherwise, this is a pointless thread, smacking of children having a giggle about something they think is "dirty". ..

It always makes me a little sad to realize just how many childish people there are. And gives me hope to know that not everyone is that way.

<Mod snip.Clearing response to a deleted post.>

[traylormatt]

To settle this, My Best friend is a lesbian and my other friend runs the LGBTQ at my university, so i put it to a vote, how many women and gay men, would have hetrosexual sex for the means of procreating a new civilization, i even went as far as saying they would raise the child together so in essence would be a couple.
End Result......All of them said that their sexual orientation was not an issue when it was survival of the human race, they would gladly have and raise children, as there is nothing stopping them from not feeling a sexual connection to other parent, and most said they would even possibly pick a gay man/ lesbian to do it with, so there was no actual attraction on any side. so in conclusion....not a problem, this is what must be done to keep the human race going.

there is certainly no settling going on here. I could claim my best friend is who ever and they know x y an z. As I said in a previous post, it doesn't matter if you happen to know every other homosexual or bi or any other orientation person on the planet, that would still not mean you know what Wray would do and how she would feel.

[KEK]

she could be BI for all we know.

Good point. I don't believe she's actually ever talked about her sexuality, or that there's ever been any indication that she isn't bisexual.