Ethically charged events from "Aftermath"

[TheChronoTrigger]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the juxtaposition of Young nearly strangling the LA guy in the hold and suffocating Riley. He looked really bewildered when he realized what he was doing in the hold, combined with the look on his face when Riley passed on. I wouldn't want to be Young right now.

[Shadow_7]

No, legally, is was murder, in countries that do not allow euthanasia. The ethics is the point of debate.

There in lies the problem with legally. In what country did the murder take place? To which laws are the crew of Destiny subject? The point of departure was a planet other than earth. I doubt it applied for statehood like there rest of the union. The point of origin was under military control, are all of the Icarus people subject to the MCOJ? At which point mutiny is treason. The maximum punishment of which is death under the MCOJ. What about the non-earth new comers? POW's or citizens of different sort?

When a mission goes south and a crew member dies, who's liable? Act of God? Or some negligence liability in there? Liable to whom? The victims family? How exactly would payment be made? Or punishment carried out? They're already prisoners of sorts. They might be getting paid back on earth, but it's not like that's doing them any good.

[garhkal]

Okay, did Young do the right thing? I think he did what had to be done and didn't involve anyone else because he didn't want to create a problem. Bringing others in, particularly Scott, could have been problematic. I certainly understand Reily didn't want to die slowly alone in the shuttle craft.

I also think it took a great deal of courage and intestinal fortitude for Young to step up and do what he did for Reily.

While i did not know them personally, 2 of my co-workers had families who opted for lifesupport removal so they would not die slowly and painfully... so i know how people can think that is the best way. And looking at Riley's situation i do think he made the best choice. And i love young's almost breaking out into tears, as he did the deed.

Rush, on the other hand, is screwing the pooch. Attempting to run Destiny by himself without assistance is not going to work. Reily is dead because of Rush's poor decision making. This is the biggest mistake Rush has made since coming onboard, in my opinion, because it resulted in Reily's death. While I think he's right that Young is not stable, and appears to be drinking on top of everything else, Rush has to bring in the rest of the crew. He'll never be able to run all the systems on his own.

How long do you think it will take before Rush tells someone about the Bridge or someone finds out where Rush has been disappearing off to?

I think it will come out next ep. We saw near the end when his 'wife' was berating him for riley's death, he was already smacking himself for it.. heck he even admitted it to 'her'..

And considering that TJ could have gated back to the Destiny and gotten any equipment she needed for an amputation I fail to see how your point, however spurious, about the lack of equipment is relevant?

And how do you know if she did perform a field amputation he would have survived anyway? Plus they don;t have anything i have seen to cart someone without legs around. BOTH would have had to be cut off to get him free.

I'm honestly surprised no one has tried to call Young a murderer for what he did with Riley, just because I know how easily some people leap to find fault in what Young does every week. The episode just aired though, so I can wait

Riley asked.. ergo there is no blame for Young.

I'm not sure what to make of Rush's actions. Negligible, arrogant at worst, but I think he believe what he's doing is the for the greater good. In hindsight sending them down to the planet was a mistake, but had the gamble paid off and they got the supplies they needed then it would have been a different matter. He has his flaws, but at least he's decisive.

I do believe that not telling the rest of the crew about the bridge is wrong though, he has no right to control their fate, especially without their knowing so.

Legally, he is culpable for negligent homicide. Morally, i am not so sure. How was he to know power would go out to the engines/shuttle? Or that where they would 'crash' into would cave in the cockpits front on riley.

But - how he did it was a horrible. Give up a bullet to make it quick and painless. Young would look better in my eyes had he done that.

Or just snap the neck. BUT had he done it with a bullet, the rest would have known what was done. MY personal belief is he should have left one pistol with a single bullet for riley to use.. much like Mccay did with that kid who got fed on in SGA ep the Definat one.

Destiny was fitted for extended voyage and logically this accommodation would have been made for her crew; extensive trauma type equipment, advanced medical operating theaters, etc. Obviously not "Atlantis grade" but more advanced than anything the team would have at their immediate disposal (brought with them).

If that was the case, where is it all at? We have not seen any of this, and much would have done wonders to help out in the last few eps.

I'm wondering who Riley though was going to blame Young for taking his life. Given the options of slowly dying alone on the shuttle, or dying relatively painlessly with the others still there, I would probably have made the same decision, only I'd ask to be shot because it would be over quickly. TJ and the others had to know that realistically there was no way that Riley was going to survive

Perhaps he felt young would be blaiming himself.. like he seemed to do after the crazy guys death.

I'm surprised no one mentioned the juxtaposition of Young nearly strangling the LA guy in the hold and suffocating Riley. He looked really bewildered when he realized what he was doing in the hold, combined with the look on his face when Riley passed on. I wouldn't want to be Young right now.

It did click to me the scene was some what erily similar.. especially since it was telford who had to drag him off.

[Lahela]

There in lies the problem with legally. In what country did the murder take place? To which laws are the crew of Destiny subject? The point of departure was a planet other than earth. I doubt it applied for statehood like there rest of the union. The point of origin was under military control, are all of the Icarus people subject to the MCOJ? At which point mutiny is treason. The maximum punishment of which is death under the MCOJ. What about the non-earth new comers? POW's or citizens of different sort?

When a mission goes south and a crew member dies, who's liable? Act of God? Or some negligence liability in there? Liable to whom? The victims family? How exactly would payment be made? Or punishment carried out? They're already prisoners of sorts. They might be getting paid back on earth, but it's not like that's doing them any good.

The ethics of euthanasia form the basis for any discussion on its legality because any political stance is based entirely on personal ethics. There are endless questions regarding legality in the situation the Destiny crew find themselves in, but that would be a whole sub-forum on its own and off-topic for this particular discussion.

Personally, I think Young did the right thing, ethically, and I think any law that would stop him from doing it was enacted by a complete ass. But that's my personal ethics.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Shadow_7

There in lies the problem with legally. In what country did the murder take place? To which laws are the crew of Destiny subject? The point of departure was a planet other than earth. I doubt it applied for statehood like there rest of the union. The point of origin was under military control, are all of the Icarus people subject to the MCOJ? At which point mutiny is treason. The maximum punishment of which is death under the MCOJ. What about the non-earth new comers? POW's or citizens of different sort?

When a mission goes south and a crew member dies, who's liable? Act of God? Or some negligence liability in there? Liable to whom? The victims family? How exactly would payment be made? Or punishment carried out? They're already prisoners of sorts. They might be getting paid back on earth, but it's not like that's doing them any good.

You're applying the UCMJ to civilians? Doesn't that imply they are all under martial law and that Young is, as he's been accused, a Military Dictator to the civilians on the ship?

[garhkal]

Personally, I think Young did the right thing, ethically, and I think any law that would stop him from doing it was enacted by a complete ass. But that's my personal ethics.

Same here.

[FallenAngelII]

You're applying the UCMJ to civilians? Doesn't that imply they are all under martial law and that Young is, as he's been accused, a Military Dictator to the civilians on the ship?

Riley was military, though.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

FA,

What does the UCMJ say about euthanasia if anything?

[FallenAngelII]

FA,

What does the UCMJ say about euthanasia if anything?

How should I know? I'm not a member of an U.S. armed force. That said, I'm pretty sure that if you're in the U.S. armed forces, you still have to obey U.S. law and if there isn't a UCMJ statute which specifies that U.S. military personnel are subject to laws different from the general public, U.S. law takes precedence. And AFAIK, euthanasia is still illegal in the U.S.

For example, I'm pretty sure there isn't a specific UCMJ statute concerning paedophilia but if one were to commit a paedophilic act while in the employ of a U.S. armed forces, the U.S. would court marshall your tuchas and/or extradite you to face criminal court.

[KEK]

They have to obey US law when they're in the US yes, but they're not. If there's a legality issue, then it'll be due to military regulations. But then out there, who cares?

[Descended]

Are you serious? Do you realise the kind of trauma that type of neck break would cause? His neck would be black and blue. Suffocation leaves no trace, not without an autopsy anyway.

TJ could have identified his cause of death instantly, any type of asphyxiation like that will leave petechial hemorrhage on the face and eyes of the victim. Young should have manned up and shot him and dealt with the consequences, under the circumstances very few people would have objected.

I think Riley was just scared to die alone so he played up the pain to get Young to do it. If you remember of a few minutes before Young showed up he said there was no pain, he couldn't feel anything. People who are claiming that it is murder and that it never happens should research the practice of terminal sedation or the double-effect principle. Most medical groups and societies agree that performing an action that has the effect of alleviating pain and suffering is ethically justified even if it hastens the persons death. That happens in medicine and the military (hell it happens in Saving Private Ryan, when the medic is shot and they give him an over-dose of morphine to alleviate his pain and it kills him) When a cancer patient is barely breathing, doctors and families know that opioids will even further suppress their breathing, but most families will choose for their love one to be comfortable in death rather than screaming and possibly alive for a little while longer.

Young was ethically right in what he did but he should have used a gun as it would have been much more humane.

[Shadow_7]

Given the contract anyone going to Icarus had to sign, why wouldn't they be subject to the UCMJ. Sure they didn't have to take the oath of obeying superiors. (even the ones that are idiots). But I'm sure that it's a bit more than a non-disclosure agreement.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Personally, I think Young did the right thing, ethically, and I think any law that would stop him from doing it was enacted by a complete ass. But that's my personal ethics.

guess you can add one more to that opinion

[SBN]

Young was ethically right in what he did but he should have used a gun as it would have been much more humane.

More humane for whom? Young could have just left a gun and walked off, but that would be the most impersonal. What he did on the other hand was the most personal, and in a way that may be difficult to explain or understand was humane. Taking someone's life, unlike portrayed for years in movies and TV, is just not as easy as one thinks. However we could argue that Young leaving a gun and walking off is very cold and impersonal to BOTH him and Riley. In his last moments Riley understood and accepted fully that Young in some ways was making a sacrifice of himself in order to help him. I might go so far to say that this was more comforting to Riley, the personal nature, as opposed to the impersonal "here is a gun, enjoy".

As someone else has pointed out, this episode really was about Young and Rush, not Riley's death. Whether this worked out in the end remains to be seen. I think it depends somewhat on how you view Young. For those that really did not get into this show or episode, and thought that Riley was the only character of interest, then this episode was a failure to them. Opposite that the element succeeded as it provided a chance in the story for both characters to face the consequences of their actions. Suffice to say this will not be the last of this issue, I am sure this will linger on for a few episodes at least.

[puddlejumper747]

No, legally, is was murder, in countries that do not allow euthanasia. The ethics is the point of debate.

…of course the ethics is the point of the debate, which is why I said absolutely nothing about the legality of the matter in my post. My position (though you disagree) is that ethically it was murder, and could not have been otherwise, regardless of whether it is legal or not.

And the warden in charge of death row gets brought up on murder charges all the time. NOT. Or our soldiers abroad killing all those combatants. It's a line, and it's an act.

Let’s not de-rail this argument into a debate about capital punishment, war, and self defense. This is a question specifically pertaining to euthanasia (or “mercy killing”). I have no intention of arguing about the ethical nature of other forms of killing. As it so happens, our two positions might be closer than you expect: I would say (and I suspect you would agree) that there are conditions under which killing can be ethical, and other conditions under which killing is not (and perhaps never can never be) ethical, in which case it’s called murder. I think we simply disagree about the nature of this particular case.

But every time you eat a salad, you killed a plant. How many innocent bugs are splatted on your windshield? What? Did I just see you swat a mosquito? What exactly do you intend to do with those chickens in your yard?

We just tend to think a little more about human life most of the time.

Again, you misunderstand my position… perhaps deliberately. Ethical objections that others might maintain against killing plants and animals in general have absolutely nothing to do with my position.

When a mission goes south and a crew member dies, who's liable? Act of God? Or some negligence liability in there?

When Young smothered Riley, he stepped into the situation and made himself the immediate cause of Riley’s death… and that’s what I have a problem with in this particular situation, though I realize you disagree. If Young had not smothered Riley, the primarily liability for Riley’s death could have much more easily been placed on Rush, or God, or the planet, or whoever/whatever else you want.

The ethics of euthanasia form the basis for any discussion on its legality because any political stance is based entirely on personal ethics.

So we do agree…

Personally, I think Young did the right thing, ethically, and I think any law that would stop him from doing it was enacted by a complete ass. But that's my personal ethics.

…and once again strongly disagree. *shrugs* Such is life.