Milky War War Spoilers?

[zainea13]

The LA doesn't know that Kiva was killed on the ship. But they do know that the planet she was on was destroyed. They may even know that Earth vessels were there at the time or just before it. So they would attack Earth for that reason. Blowing up their link to destiny.

[garhkal]

Advanced weapons suddenly lose their advantage when your enemy has more numbers

Yup. See how easily the Hammond got owned in Last man standing, when they were overwhelmed by wraith cruisers.

1 cloaked cargo ship delivers naquadriah bomb in New York City.

Yup. We could not evne prevent them blocking our beaming out of rush when he infiltrated as "Telford". Nor did we even know they had a ship here.

Less so than a full scale Hatak and deathglider assualt on Earth. If the LA go the bomb route Earth still can pull a cover story, if they full scale invade then all of Earth will mobilize. Rather than having just 4-5 304s Earth will start churning them out 3-4 a week.

Heck if i was the LA i would 'cloak it' then put some holo over it of an asteroid. Or better yet, since they KNOW our situation, perhaps they DO go the route of 'exposing' the program.

Which is? Keep in mind the methods used thus far have all been countered.

Lock the gate up wiht continual dialing and power feed into (season 6, and again earlier with sokar), get a ship into orbit with a gate on that dials somewhere else. that program felger made.

The Alliance has no way to prevent Earth from using the Stargate. If they brought another one, they'd have to stay in orbit and they'd be caught. They can't steal it, because Earth has beaming jammers

See above. And if it is cloaked, how would they tell where the ship that has it on IS? Remember an alkesh can be cloaked. And it is large enough imo to house a gate.. Also we did see sokar with a fleet of cloakable hat'aks. Who knows where those ended up.
On the jammer. Whats to stop them doing a wraith on us (like in enemy at the gate) and ramming a ship at supersonic speed into chyan mountain, burying the gate.

The LA are not in a position to win a battle to destroy Earth.

I am sure they know of the 'gate into a sun' to suck off atoms cauing it to go nova. And i doubt even atlantis with 3 ZPM's could shield us from that blast.

The only Jaffa I count on are Teal'c an Bra'tac an while they are capable of bringing in a Jaffa fleet I doubt it would be more than a few ships. The Jaffa nation council is not exactly pro earth.

Plus after the ass whupping the Ori gave them, we don't know how many ships they have left.

Funny, if I remember SG-1's exploits against the Goa'uld correctly, superior technology doesn't always mean victory.

Yip. And i can easily see us getting arrogant like the Gou'ald were in regards to us.. we kicked the ori ass, gouald ass, wraith ass, asuran ass... whats not to be arrogant about.

The LA appear to be 'a group of thugs' who have the capability to infiltrate SGC with a mole, the resources to mount an expedition to the destination at the end of the 9th Chevron, have access to advanced technology and starships and are capable of locating and surveying naquadriah enriched planets to provide the power to dial Destiny.

Well said Shai. They are obviously a lot more organized/powerful/knowledgeable and street savvy than some here give them credit for.

It has also been reveal that they may be a far older organisation than we knew before, ginger hair girl said they have been harassing her family for 15 years . Which means that they were able to operate under the system lords who had far more power an control than Earth does.

Part of me wanted to believe her, part of me though it was 'standard sob story #1013" they were told to use to curry favor if ever caught.

And frankly from a military point of view an attack on earth makes perfect sense. The LA have a method of inserting bombs or strike teams undetected on earth, and an a attack on earth could destroy any facilities to build any more ships but also the facilities to repair the 304’s. After that let attrition take its toll. Add an attack on the SGC and Homeworld Command, and you leave Earth’s force disorganised and less able to project power throughout the galaxy

And who's to say they have not figured out (Via telford) some of our tactics we have used in the past. such as the microjump that oneil/carter did against the superhatak anubis had.. Then they blow up a ship with the LA's equivelant of a nuke on.
Or hows about they land 2-3 ships worth of some bio weapon, and unleash it on some of our planet.. Just the resources we would have to push out to contain that would keep us busy.

The LA is no match for Earth. Telford does not have access to that kind of technical data. Those are top-secret blueprints that they would under no circumstances just hand out. Telford would get exposed in a second if he tried to steal anything outside of his office.

Then how the heck did he get all the info on Iccarus to them?

Or, failing that, just park a few dozen cloaked cargoships in a few dozen major cities on Earth, fill them with naquadah, and then blow them up. This won't destroy Earth of course, but it would successfully remove a good bit of its human population.

Heck just get on the inside of a large fault line to cause mass chaos and destruction/

Unless they knew about what Carter did all those years ago.

Depending on what Telford has told them, they could have the entire SG1 handbook for all we know.

Precicely. Since we did not know how big a threat they were before they took over the oddesy, it is safe IMO to assume they have detailed files on our missions. So what is to stop them taking a page or two out of our own tactics we have used.

But the simple, undeniable fact is this: if the Lucian Alliance had even an ounce of the tech the humans do, their Ha'taks would be armed with beam weapons, not staff cannons.

Well we got ours from the Asgard. Who's to say that even with the tech specs, that the LA could duplicate them.

The Wraith managed that trick inside of an hour, and they don't have the same beaming ability.

To me the wraith had their own version.

[morbosfist]

Yup. See how easily the Hammond got owned in Last man standing, when they were overwhelmed by wraith cruisers.

Uh, no. The Phoenix, in that timeline, was owned by three Wraith hive ships who got the drop on it, and Wraith hives are far and away superior to Ha'taks.

Heck if i was the LA i would 'cloak it' then put some holo over it of an asteroid. Or better yet, since they KNOW our situation, perhaps they DO go the route of 'exposing' the program.

Goa'uld cloaking devices do no work like that. They can't cloak anything larger than an Alkesh. Apophis did it once with Ha'taks, but that was treated as something very rare and never happens again.

Lock the gate up wiht continual dialing and power feed into (season 6, and again earlier with sokar), get a ship into orbit with a gate on that dials somewhere else. that program felger made.

That program Felger made was patched to prevent that kind of tampering, and the Alliance doesn't have it. Constant dialling of the gate would make detecting a cloaked vessel easy. It would be destroyed.

See above. And if it is cloaked, how would they tell where the ship that has it on IS? Remember an alkesh can be cloaked. And it is large enough imo to house a gate.. Also we did see sokar with a fleet of cloakable hat'aks. Who knows where those ended up.

That was Apophis that had the Ha'taks, and they were blown up protecting his mothership. Cloaked ships can be detected, albeit with difficultly, and large energy surges such as a Stargate would make doing so that much easier.

On the jammer. Whats to stop them doing a wraith on us (like in enemy at the gate) and ramming a ship at supersonic speed into chyan mountain, burying the gate.

The fact that a Goa'uld vessel would break apart in the atmosphere if it tried that, or be blown to scrap before it ever got close.

I am sure they know of the 'gate into a sun' to suck off atoms cauing it to go nova. And i doubt even atlantis with 3 ZPM's could shield us from that blast.

How would they? The only people that know it happened are the humans and the Tok'ra, and neither works with the Alliance.

Plus after the ass whupping the Ori gave them, we don't know how many ships they have left.

Enough to stand guard over the Tok'ra homeworld while Ba'al was killed.

And who's to say they have not figured out (Via telford) some of our tactics we have used in the past. such as the microjump that oneil/carter did against the superhatak anubis had.. Then they blow up a ship with the LA's equivelant of a nuke on.

And who's to say they have, given their utter lack of change from then and now.

Or hows about they land 2-3 ships worth of some bio weapon, and unleash it on some of our planet.. Just the resources we would have to push out to contain that would keep us busy.

This is all well and good, except they've never done it before. They haven't even been willing to pick a direct fight until now.

Then how the heck did he get all the info on Iccarus to them?

He runs the Icarus project. It's a simple as copying the files on his desk. It's a lot easier to get away with.

Precicely. Since we did not know how big a threat they were before they took over the oddesy, it is safe IMO to assume they have detailed files on our missions. So what is to stop them taking a page or two out of our own tactics we have used.

There's no reason to assume they do, and even if they did they can't replicate every tactic.

Well we got ours from the Asgard. Who's to say that even with the tech specs, that the LA could duplicate them.

They don't have them, or they'd have built them. Not a difficult conclusion to make. We copied the beam weapons on the Odyssey for every 304 (save maybe the Hammond for now). If they had the designs, it should be within their ability.

To me the wraith had their own version.

Except they didn't.

[garhkal]

Uh, no. The Phoenix, in that timeline, was owned by three Wraith hive ships who got the drop on it, and Wraith hives are far and away superior to Ha'taks.

The point still stands. (*thanks for the correction on which ship). It still was overwhelmed by 3 enemy ships.. i think 10 or so hataks could do the same to 1 304..

That program Felger made was patched to prevent that kind of tampering, and the Alliance doesn't have it. Constant dialling of the gate would make detecting a cloaked vessel easy. It would be destroyed.

How would constant diling of a gate on the cloked ship make detection/destruction easy? Heck, dial INTO it and feed energy into it so it stays open..
As to the program, iirc the la already tried to use it later on, in the earlier part of season 10..

The fact that a Goa'uld vessel would break apart in the atmosphere if it tried that, or be blown to scrap before it ever got close.

Do we really know if a gou'ald ship would break up coming in though?

How would they? The only people that know it happened are the humans and the Tok'ra, and neither works with the Alliance.

Well so was info on the Icarus planet, destiny etc.. but look how easy they got THAT info... Ergo having mission reports is not out of the question.

And who's to say they have, given their utter lack of change from then and now.

I do not see them having an utter lack of change. Heck seeing as how they went from a ragtag group in S7-9, to a force to be reconned with (now) i would say they have had some serious changes....

He runs the Icarus project. It's a simple as copying the files on his desk. It's a lot easier to get away with.

Incorrect. Remember YOUNG was in charge of icarus. Telford was supposed to lead the team through the gate...

There's no reason to assume they do, and even if they did they can't replicate every tactic.

And there is little reason to assume they DON"T have them.. espeially with what telford has been able to get them. As to replicating them. Why not?

They don't have them, or they'd have built them. Not a difficult conclusion to make. We copied the beam weapons on the Odyssey for every 304 (save maybe the Hammond for now). If they had the designs, it should be within their ability.

Sorry, but i call BS here.. Just cause you have tech specs on something does NOT give you the capacity to build them. Remember how hard it was for carter to make a naquida reactor from what's her names drawing in early season 2 of sg1..

[QUOTE=morbosfist;11962059]Except they didn't. /quote]

then what do you call them beaming people up into storage units for materialization later on??

[Descended]

And we know how easy it is to cut off a single planet's access to the stargate system...



Keep in mind that one of the 304's is Chinese and it's very likely that the Russians and Chinese are just waiting for the right moment to take power away from the US. If the US were to abuse their advanced technology to beam North Korea's nukes away that would probably even convince Israel and Britain to turn on the US. And the fact is that those aren't the only three countries who are anti-US. Venezuela has military alliances with Cuba, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Honduras and a bunch of other South American countries and even Russia and North Korea is pretty much backed by China so for the US to take unilateral action against them would be very bad (not to mention that it goes against everything that the UN stands for)...

That's when you make an example out of one of them with a Mark IX.

Not to mention they could hook up Merlin's shroud and phase shift the whole planet. No one on Earth would know it happened except for the brief flash of light which could be explained as a gamma ray burst or something. Then Earth just sits back untouchable. With the ZPMs from Atlantis it shouldn't be too difficult if the US power grid was able to do it in the "Road Not Taken" episode.

[Kaiphantom]

The LA appear to be 'a group of thugs' who have the capability to infiltrate SGC with a mole, the resources to mount an expedition to the destination at the end of the 9th Chevron, have access to advanced technology and starships and are capable of locating and surveying naquadriah enriched planets to provide the power to dial Destiny. Castigating them as purely 'street thugs' seems a tad pointless. JM & the rest of the SG producers / writers have put the LA into place as main antagonists in the Milky Way now that the Go'auld have been dealt with, is that so hard to come to terms with?

The only mole they had was capturing Telford who was infiltrating the LA at the time. They discovered him and used the Goa'Uld brainwashing technology. It's interesting that they had to get someone that way, and not capture someone from an outpost. Almost as if they couldn't....

Mounting an expedition to the 9th chevron is a non-starter argument. There's very little you need to prepare for there. Just grab some supplies and go. Oh, there's the whole dialing thing, but they couldn't even get that right and thus needed Rush. If they are tryign to present the LA as a threat, they are failing as far as I'm concerned. The only way they were even successful at Icarus is because Hammond lacked Asgard beam weapons.

Yeah because it’s not like there is a real world comparison is there? I mean there aren’t any backward tribal warlords, heavily involved in drug dealing, fighting superpowers in the world are there? Oh wait a second...

I'm sorry, what would you be referring to? Because nothing comes to mind. Unless you feel somehow Somali warlords and their pirates are somehow a threat to the US. The only reason they are still around is because bombing the crap out of the country or dropping a nuke is because it's not seen as being too nice. If we weren't worried about our image, we could wipe them out. Same with the Taliban. The only reason they are still around, is because we won't nuke the areas of Pakistan where they reside.

And frankly from a military point of view an attack on earth makes perfect sense. The LA have a method of inserting bombs or strike teams undetected on earth, and an a attack on earth could destroy any facilities to build any more ships but also the facilities to repair the 304’s. After that let attrition take its toll. Add an attack on the SGC and Homeworld Command, and you leave Earth’s force disorganised and less able to project power throughout the galaxy.

No, the LA ain't gettin' anywhere near Earth's ship production facilities. And even if they do damage or blow them up, we'll just build new ones with better security. Sure, they can land here and commit some acts of terror, but they know doing that will place them more firmly in the limelight. Put yourself up as too much of a threat, and people stronger than you will come along and knock you down. The LA has facilities for their ships, too, but they wouldn't have as many people skilled at making or repairing ships, which means attrition hurts them far more than us.

[Shai Hulud]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter it all depends on your perspective.

[Replicator Todd]

I'd love to see something!

[Kaiphantom]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter it all depends on your perspective.

That wasn't my point. I don't care what you refer to the LA as. Just that their only option for attacking Earth is to blow up less secure facilities to cause terror. There is an extremely low probability of them mounting any sort of effective normal attack, or even getting their "freedom fighters" into more secure facilities like the Pentagon, homeworld security, ship production facilities, etc. Hell, having given designs to Russia, China, the UK, and France, odds are those countries have ship production facilities as well. That means the LA would have to get effective moles to all five countries, work past all the differing cultural, language, and security measures to bring Earth's ship building to a halt.

And that's presuming Earth doesn't have a ship building facility on another planet by now. Hell, we supposedly have a moon base now that we'll hear about eventually.

The LA would need one HELL of an advantage to threaten Earth with an attack. They could have one, I'm just saying the writers need to give me a damn good reason first, because nothing I've seen makes me think they can. They are more feudal that the Goa'uld system lords, and if Apophis tried to attack Earth with his two ships like at the end of Season 1, they'd be toast.

[Shai Hulud]

The only mole they had was capturing Telford who was infiltrating the LA at the time. They discovered him and used the Goa'Uld brainwashing technology. It's interesting that they had to get someone that way, and not capture someone from an outpost. Almost as if they couldn't....

Mounting an expedition to the 9th chevron is a non-starter argument. There's very little you need to prepare for there. Just grab some supplies and go. Oh, there's the whole dialing thing, but they couldn't even get that right and thus needed Rush. If they are tryign to present the LA as a threat, they are failing as far as I'm concerned. The only way they were even successful at Icarus is because Hammond lacked Asgard beam weapons.



I'm sorry, what would you be referring to? Because nothing comes to mind. Unless you feel somehow Somali warlords and their pirates are somehow a threat to the US. The only reason they are still around is because bombing the crap out of the country or dropping a nuke is because it's not seen as being too nice. If we weren't worried about our image, we could wipe them out. Same with the Taliban. The only reason they are still around, is because we won't nuke the areas of Pakistan where they reside.



No, the LA ain't gettin' anywhere near Earth's ship production facilities. And even if they do damage or blow them up, we'll just build new ones with better security. Sure, they can land here and commit some acts of terror, but they know doing that will place them more firmly in the limelight. Put yourself up as too much of a threat, and people stronger than you will come along and knock you down. The LA has facilities for their ships, too, but they wouldn't have as many people skilled at making or repairing ships, which means attrition hurts them far more than us.

How on earth do we know how many spies the LA have on Earth? They managed to get a cloaked ship onto Earth and Kiva's group seemed to have a permanent presence there so why would we assume that Telford is the only spy they have recruited, forced or otherwise?

Same goes for the production facilities for making ships? How do we know that Earth have more / better facilities than the LA? The LA have taken over the Goa'uld space and planets and the Goa'uld had the capability to produce starships, fighters, bombers, etc.

Oh and as for the 'War on Terror' the only reason that you Yanks are still fighting is that war is very profitable for big multinational corporations who sell weapons, armour, security, rebuilding of infrastructure, etc and also it is good for politicians who are funded by aforementioned corporations and can use it to whip up hysteria and votes to get themselves elected and maintain the hegemony they hold. If you think that the war is about making America safe or spreading 'democracy' then your sadly deluded. Nothing to do with the worlds perception of use of nuclear weapons, the Yanks are still the only country in the world to have used a nuclear bomb in a war so id say their reputation as a bunch of triggerhappy cowboys is well and truly set in stone...

[morbosfist]

The point still stands. (*thanks for the correction on which ship). It still was overwhelmed by 3 enemy ships.. i think 10 or so hataks could do the same to 1 304.

No, it doesn't stand. The Phoenix was up against a superior enemy force in every sense of the word. Their weapons, hull strength, and overall firepower exceed that of any Ha'tak. It would take at least three times the amount of ships for the Alliance to do the same, and they have never committed such a fleet.

How would constant diling of a gate on the cloked ship make detection/destruction easy? Heck, dial INTO it and feed energy into it so it stays open..
As to the program, iirc the la already tried to use it later on, in the earlier part of season 10..

Sure, feed it power. Like that is such an easy thing to do. Get your facts straight here. The only times that ever worked were when Anubis tried to destroy the Stargate, and that took a colossal amount of power. Even the Goa'uld couldn't do it on their own.

And no, the Alliance did not in any way attempt to lock out a Stargate with a virus. I'm not even sure where you pulled that idea from.

Do we really know if a gou'ald ship would break up coming in though?

It would need to have its shields up to survive re-entry, and any ship able to get that close would have its shields knocked out before it could even enter the atmosphere.

Well so was info on the Icarus planet, destiny etc.. but look how easy they got THAT info... Ergo having mission reports is not out of the question.

Now you're applying double standards. Telford is a spy for them in Icarus. They did not have any spies during the sun destroying incident.

I do not see them having an utter lack of change. Heck seeing as how they went from a ragtag group in S7-9, to a force to be reconned with (now) i would say they have had some serious changes....

They haven't changed. They weren't a ragtag group to start with. They were what they are now: opportunistic thugs. The only change from then to now is the fact that they have a spy.

Incorrect. Remember YOUNG was in charge of icarus. Telford was supposed to lead the team through the gate...

A trivial distinction. Telford still has access to the materials on that base as a matter of course. He does not have access beyond that, not without having to draw attention to himself through requisition orders.

And there is little reason to assume they DON"T have them.. espeially with what telford has been able to get them. As to replicating them. Why not?

Telford has only been able to information on Icarus as far as we know. They can't replicate our tactics because they don't have the same resources. They don't have every gate address, nor many of the technologies we employ.

Sorry, but i call BS here.. Just cause you have tech specs on something does NOT give you the capacity to build them. Remember how hard it was for carter to make a naquida reactor from what's her names drawing in early season 2 of sg1..

Then you're simply not paying attention. Hard? Carter built a working naquadah reactor from the specs within the same episode. We have, canonically, replicated every upgrade done to the Odyssey for our fleet of 304s. There's no arguing this fact. It's been done, period. Unless the Lucian Alliance is incompetent, they'd have done the same by now.

then what do you call them beaming people up into storage units for materialization later on??

I call it the functional equivalent of a ring transporter. It is not the same as site to site transportation technology.

[Womble]

Earth is not that powerful. 5-6 304s, a bunch of fighters and Atlantis plus Earth' own armies are a serious force, yes- but the Lucian Alliance seems to have a lot of ships and easy access to naquadah. If they were willing to take casualties and smart enough to focus on getting past the defenses in a hurry and maximizing damage to Earth, they could still inflict massive civilian losses. Can Earth live with that?

More interestingly, what would happen to the Earth society in the Stargate program's cover was blown in such brutal way as naquadah bombs being dropped on major metropolitan areas? Would it collapse into anarchy? Would it consolidate into a single planet-wide authoritarian regime governing through harsh emergency rules? Not a pretty outcome either way.

[morbosfist]

It's not really a victory for the Lucian Alliance if we destroy them in retaliation, which would happen. They can't go toe to toe with our fleet.

[Womble]

It's not really a victory for the Lucian Alliance if we destroy them in retaliation, which would happen. They can't go toe to toe with our fleet.

But Earth can't really destroy the Alliance with 5-6 ships. There are 200 to 400 billion stars in the Milky Way. Even if only 1% of them have habitable planets, it's still an awful lot of planets scattered around 100 000 light years of space. You can't police that with six ships, or even with sixty. Alliance bases can remain undiscovered forever and then some. They may lose much of their spaceship fleet in this kind of attack, but the fleet can be built a new. If they manage to take Earth out of business, it may be worth it in the Alliance's cost vs. benefit equation.

[PG15]

That's when you make an example out of one of them with a Mark IX.

Mark 9's devastate entire planets.

It's not really a victory for the Lucian Alliance if we destroy them in retaliation, which would happen. They can't go toe to toe with our fleet.

Would it though?

Let's say Earth is majorly devastated by LA sneak attacks (i.e. landing naquadah-filled cargo ships across the world and blowing them up), and we launch all but one of our ships - leaving one at Earth to prevent further attacks - to destroy everything LA in the Milky Way. How long do you think that will take?

Will the fleet have to split up into individual ships?

Furthermore, would we even try such a thing as it's nothing more than revenge and wasting valuable resources (unless our goal is not to destroy the LA but to cease their resources)?

I don't think it's that easy. Seems to me that the Asgard beam is really easy to take down if we're caught in a surprise attack, and after that it's just a matter of wearing down the shields; if the LA can command a large enough Hatak fleet against one of our ships and manage to take down the Asgard beam early enough, they could win.