Originally posted by EllieVee
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Originally posted by DigiFluid View PostTorture is not practices by "practically every government on Earth,"Click the banner or episode links to visit the virtual continuations of Stargate!Previous Episode: 11x03 "Shore Leave" | Previous Episode: 6x04 "Nightfall" | Now Airing: 3x06 "Eldest"The Continuing Stargate Wiki | Stargate: Avalon l The New "Ark of Truth" | Stargate: Universe Reviews | Banner designs by Alx
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Every time I try to convince myself that torture is wrong, I remember the first scene in the first episode of season 7 of 24. Bauer is accused of torturing a terrorist for information. He admits that torture is wrong and illegal, but points out that said terrorist had targeted a bus with like 40 people and 12 children. So torturing that guy saved the lives of all those people.
Would you honestly prefer to see the terrorist, a guy that attacked your country and innocent citizens, unharmed, and see 50 people die, rather than inflicting him a little pain to make him admit the truth, so you can save innocent lives?
I think some things are wrong but yet may become necessary sometimes. Killing is wrong. Yet we do it in self-defense, or to protect others.
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Originally posted by s09119 View PostAll the "civilized" countries you note have employed it at one time or another, many right up to the modern day."A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life
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Originally posted by DigiFluid View PostExactly. In the past, when it was still thought of as effective and acceptable. Neither is the case anymore. It's a sign of a bygone, less civilized time. It's been out for centuries.Click the banner or episode links to visit the virtual continuations of Stargate!Previous Episode: 11x03 "Shore Leave" | Previous Episode: 6x04 "Nightfall" | Now Airing: 3x06 "Eldest"The Continuing Stargate Wiki | Stargate: Avalon l The New "Ark of Truth" | Stargate: Universe Reviews | Banner designs by Alx
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Originally posted by s09119 View Post...but as I just proved, it's still employed by "civilized" countries today, it's just that they publicly disown it."A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life
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Originally posted by DigiFluid View PostTorture fell out of favour was abolished by civilized countries on Earth a century ago, and then was codified after the atrocities witnessed in the Second World War. History and changing public opinion rightly drove out torture.
Besides that, I'm an atheist
Originally posted by s09119 View PostThe Bible is largely just a collection of views, ideas, and codes already expressed by those that came before, but your quote is valid nonetheless. People have realized since the dawn of time that sometimes the few must be sacrificed so that the many may live. We embrace this idea on many levels, most-commonly in the military, where a small percentage of the population fights and dies so that the vast majority need not.
Originally posted by EllieVee View PostSo?
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Originally posted by DigiFluid View PostThen those governments are clearly barbaric and not welcome in civilized society. Saying something bad and then doing it anyway doesn't forgive it.Click the banner or episode links to visit the virtual continuations of Stargate!Previous Episode: 11x03 "Shore Leave" | Previous Episode: 6x04 "Nightfall" | Now Airing: 3x06 "Eldest"The Continuing Stargate Wiki | Stargate: Avalon l The New "Ark of Truth" | Stargate: Universe Reviews | Banner designs by Alx
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Originally posted by DigiFluid View PostThen those governments are clearly barbaric and not welcome in civilized society. Saying something bad and then doing it anyway doesn't forgive it.
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Originally posted by JustAnotherVoice View PostI'm sure more than a few conspiracy theorists would claim that every government intelligence agency has people out there pulling finger nails and cutting fingers off all in the name of national security.
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Originally posted by s09119 View PostSo the United States is barbaric and not welcome in civilized society? What about the United Kingdom? France? Spain? Germany?"A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life
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Originally posted by DigiFluid View PostFor the third time, centuries ago. And the Bush regime was rightly shunned by most other countries for its crimes.Click the banner or episode links to visit the virtual continuations of Stargate!Previous Episode: 11x03 "Shore Leave" | Previous Episode: 6x04 "Nightfall" | Now Airing: 3x06 "Eldest"The Continuing Stargate Wiki | Stargate: Avalon l The New "Ark of Truth" | Stargate: Universe Reviews | Banner designs by Alx
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Originally posted by s09119 View PostSo what are you saying? I posted an instance of Americans, "civilized" people, torturing. And you responded by clarifying that you meant "civilized" people don't torture. Your argument seems busted then and there.
The nightmare that was the lead-up to and the subsequent invasion aside, the Iraqi people as a whole are no less civilized than those of any other nation.
Torture as a means of information retrieval, etc, for whatever reason has been abolished by the Geneva Convention. The USA is one of the countries that signed off on that. The black ops, water boarding, walling, and other torture means are illegal. The reason we can find any evidence of this practice by the United States is because Obama has adopted a full disclosure of Bush practices. As far as I know, there are still hearings going on over the full extent of these torture sessions. The person in charge of it all at the CIA and others involved with the knowledge of these practices have resigned. The Bush administration did it secretly and illegally and the people responsible are being brought to some form of justice. This was not a military action but a black ops/CIA action.
It would take more than a Colonel or General in the USAF to "allow" a torture session. It would have to be a Presidential Order. The main reason, besides the obvious legality of the situation is this information retrieved during torture cannot be and will never be considered reliable intel. The main reason for this is that people will say anything to stop the torture. Trusting this information will never prove to be good.
I once tried to bring the idea of torture (In 24) up to my father who is a Commander in the US Navy. I offered up the scenario that what if a terrorist was going to blow up NYC, and if you torture him or her, then maybe you could save millions of people.
His response: There is never, ever a good reason to torture anyone. It strictly goes against everything that we are and everything that the US military stands for. There is absolutely no justification for it. Then he proceeded to tell me that intel retrieved from torture is unreliable. He was very adamant in his response. There was no room for argument. I sincerely hope O'Neill didn't approve of the torture, if he did, then I'm afraid he's destroyed all respect I had for the character.
There's no way the military would allow it. Obviously the writers did not send this script to their military adviser, and more obviously, the Canadians do not know crap about the US military. They should not sacrifice realism for darkness.sigpic
Happy Holidays!
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Originally posted by s09119 View PostAll those countries have employed torture within the last century, some within the last decade. So for the third time, torture still happens even in the "civilized" world today. Bush and his administration may not have been the nicest of people, but they didn't authorize anything that any other head of state wouldn't or hasn't behind closed doors.
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Originally posted by Alexandria7 View Postand more obviously, the Canadians do not know crap about the US military. They should not sacrifice realism for darkness."A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life
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