Torture

[EllieVee]

I think the point was that, as s09119 pointed out earlier, the concept of sacrificing the few for the sake of the many has been around for a considerable amount of time and that on occasion individuals have to suffer for the sake of others.

And it's also helpful if you hate the person who's body is being occupied, no?

I'm not saying that it's perfectly fine but I don't think that it's always the case that it's the wrong thing to do.

[DigiFluid]

...except it wasn't abolished.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture#Municipal_law

More than a century.

[s09119]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture#Municipal_law

More than a century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghr...prisoner_abuse

Still happens today.

[DigiFluid]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghr...prisoner_abuse

Still happens today.

I said civilized countries.

[s09119]

I said civilized countries.

The base in question was an outpost of the United States of America.

Also, why are the Iraqis any less "civilized" than us?

[Krazeh]

And it's also helpful if you hate the person who's body is being occupied, no?

I fail to see what that has to do with the moralities of torture, but even if Young does still passionately hate Rush (which I don't beleive is the case) I think he's learnt that he does need Rush around and he's not going to torture or kill him for the sake of it.

Do you believe killing someone is wrong? Does that belief extend to all situations, to the extent that you would let others die through inaction rather than kill someone?

[DigiFluid]

The base in question was an outpost of the United States of America.

I realize that.

Also, why are the Iraqis any less "civilized" than us?

Mostly because the US military bombed them into the stone age over false allegations. And before that, their government was a selfish, murderous, torturous body.

[Demerzel]

The big big thing in this episode that I really, really was unhappy about. First Young is happy to throw out due process, suggesting he'll get an answer out of Telford by any means necessary--and O'Neill appears to be okay with it despite Daniel's objection. And then we've got Kiva prattling on about how she's learned over the years that torture is effective, who is proven right by Rush giving in

Wow, talk about sending the wrong message

I'm pretty sure you don't watch 24. Watching Rush get zapped by a space-taser is really tame, in my opinion, compared to Jack Bauer disemboweling a terrorist after cutting him slowly to pieces (literally), and leaving his insides on the floor (which you actually see). In both cases though, it was crucial to obtain information for the greater good as we all know that sacrificing one life in order to save many is usually the right thing to do. And as Asimov said, never let morals get in the way of doing whats right.

[s09119]

I realize that.

So what are you saying? I posted an instance of Americans, "civilized" people, torturing. And you responded by clarifying that you meant "civilized" people don't torture. Your argument seems busted then and there.

Mostly because the US military bombed them into the stone age over false allegations. And before that, their government was a selfish, murderous, torturous body.

The nightmare that was the lead-up to and the subsequent invasion aside, the Iraqi people as a whole are no less civilized than those of any other nation.

[DigiFluid]

So what are you saying? I posted an instance of Americans, "civilized" people, torturing. And you responded by clarifying that you meant "civilized" people don't torture. Your argument seems busted then and there.

The nightmare that was the lead-up to and the subsequent invasion aside, the Iraqi people as a whole are no less civilized than those of any other nation.

There's nothing wrong with some neighbourly ribbing

Besides that, you keep ignoring that I'm talking governments here. No government that endorses torture can rightfully be called anything other than barbaric.

[Krazeh]

There's nothing wrong with some neighbourly ribbing

Besides that, you keep ignoring that I'm talking governments here. No government that endorses torture can rightfully be called anything other than barbaric.

Would that be public endorsement or behind closed doors kind of endorsement?

[Cold Fuzz]

I copied this from a post I made to a similar thread:

There's an interesting juxtaposition in this episode: Kiva using torture for evil purposes, for personal gain and potentially murder vs. Young, who is using torture to save lives. The former is unacceptable while the latter is. I believe that's what the writers are trying to bring across with the episode.

[EllieVee]

I fail to see what that has to do with the moralities of torture, but even if Young does still passionately hate Rush (which I don't beleive is the case) I think he's learnt that he does need Rush around and he's not going to torture or kill him for the sake of it.

He stated Rush was important in Air. This did not prevent him from bashing the man and leaving him to die on a planet in Justice. Nor did it prevent him from threatening to pull the plug in Human despite the great possibility that Rush might die or stating that he didn't care if Rush killed himself. He's already done so and said so 'for the sake of it'.

Do you believe killing someone is wrong?

Yes.

Does that belief extend to all situations, to the extent that you would let others die through inaction rather than kill someone?

Ah, the unanswerable question. I can't answer that and seriously, nor can anyone else until they are put into that situation. I can only state what I think now which is torture is wrong. I cannot answer a hypothetical.

[s09119]

There's nothing wrong with some neighbourly ribbing

Besides that, you keep ignoring that I'm talking governments here. No government that endorses torture can rightfully be called anything other than barbaric.

So practically every government on Earth is barbaric, at least in practice. But isn't that what matters? Actions speak louder than words.

[DigiFluid]

Torture is not practices by "practically every government on Earth,"