Torture

[Krazeh]

Ah, the unanswerable question. I can't answer that and seriously, nor can anyone else until they are put into that situation. I can only state what I think now which is torture is wrong. I cannot answer a hypothetical.

It's only unanswerable if you wish to avoid actually considering your own moral views and choices. For anyone willing to do however it's perfectly simple to answer, once you've considered your views that is. Furthermore if you can't answer a hypothetical how can you claim that torture is always wrong? Or can you not accept that there could be situations in which torture would be necessary?

[s09119]

Torture is not practices by "practically every government on Earth,"

All the "civilized" countries you note have employed it at one time or another, many right up to the modern day.

[Demerzel]

Every time I try to convince myself that torture is wrong, I remember the first scene in the first episode of season 7 of 24. Bauer is accused of torturing a terrorist for information. He admits that torture is wrong and illegal, but points out that said terrorist had targeted a bus with like 40 people and 12 children. So torturing that guy saved the lives of all those people.

Would you honestly prefer to see the terrorist, a guy that attacked your country and innocent citizens, unharmed, and see 50 people die, rather than inflicting him a little pain to make him admit the truth, so you can save innocent lives?

I think some things are wrong but yet may become necessary sometimes. Killing is wrong. Yet we do it in self-defense, or to protect others.

[DigiFluid]

All the "civilized" countries you note have employed it at one time or another, many right up to the modern day.

Exactly. In the past, when it was still thought of as effective and acceptable. Neither is the case anymore. It's a sign of a bygone, less civilized time. It's been out for centuries.

[s09119]

Exactly. In the past, when it was still thought of as effective and acceptable. Neither is the case anymore. It's a sign of a bygone, less civilized time. It's been out for centuries.

...but as I just proved, it's still employed by "civilized" countries today, it's just that they publicly disown it.

[DigiFluid]

...but as I just proved, it's still employed by "civilized" countries today, it's just that they publicly disown it.

Then those governments are clearly barbaric and not welcome in civilized society. Saying something bad and then doing it anyway doesn't forgive it.

[JustAnotherVoice]

Torture fell out of favour was abolished by civilized countries on Earth a century ago, and then was codified after the atrocities witnessed in the Second World War. History and changing public opinion rightly drove out torture.

Besides that, I'm an atheist

No, "government sanctioned" torture has been out of favour. Military internment camps across the world still do it through sleep deprivation, aural stimuli etc. It happens behind closed doors, and every time it gets out into the open, the media go nuts over it. I'm sure more than a few conspiracy theorists would claim that every government intelligence agency has people out there pulling finger nails and cutting fingers off all in the name of national security.

The Bible is largely just a collection of views, ideas, and codes already expressed by those that came before, but your quote is valid nonetheless. People have realized since the dawn of time that sometimes the few must be sacrificed so that the many may live. We embrace this idea on many levels, most-commonly in the military, where a small percentage of the population fights and dies so that the vast majority need not.

I'm not subscribing to it, I'm just saying that the western idea of morality (as well as a suspect view of history) has been highly influenced by that set of views/ideas/code.

So?

So, this is a debate on the morality of tortue. Everything about morality that you have been taught (assuming you come from a judeo-christian country) has been based off something that is actually quite pragmatic, even if it is filled with pointless dogma. Such an important cultural marker shouldn't be ignored because you don't see the immediate relevance. Like it or not, the Bible has had a hand in shaping western society, especially in North America, and while it may not condone torture in so many words, the "good book" clearly boils it down to a numbers game.

[s09119]

Then those governments are clearly barbaric and not welcome in civilized society. Saying something bad and then doing it anyway doesn't forgive it.

So the United States is barbaric and not welcome in civilized society? What about the United Kingdom? France? Spain? Germany?

[Demerzel]

Then those governments are clearly barbaric and not welcome in civilized society. Saying something bad and then doing it anyway doesn't forgive it.

The U.S. use torture a hell of a lot still, I'm sure. We'll never know what goes on in things like black ops and stuff that never appears on record. If you think it doesn't happen anymore, you are a bit naive. And yet America prides itself as the most civilized, powerful country in the world. Are you saying the U.S. don't belong in civilized society?

[Krazeh]

I'm sure more than a few conspiracy theorists would claim that every government intelligence agency has people out there pulling finger nails and cutting fingers off all in the name of national security.

To be honest I'm not sure you need to be a conspiracy theorist to have considered that this is a possibility.

[DigiFluid]

So the United States is barbaric and not welcome in civilized society? What about the United Kingdom? France? Spain? Germany?

For the third time, centuries ago. And the Bush regime was rightly shunned by most other countries for its crimes.

[s09119]

For the third time, centuries ago. And the Bush regime was rightly shunned by most other countries for its crimes.

All those countries have employed torture within the last century, some within the last decade. So for the third time, torture still happens even in the "civilized" world today. Bush and his administration may not have been the nicest of people, but they didn't authorize anything that any other head of state wouldn't or hasn't behind closed doors.

[Alexandria7]

So what are you saying? I posted an instance of Americans, "civilized" people, torturing. And you responded by clarifying that you meant "civilized" people don't torture. Your argument seems busted then and there.



The nightmare that was the lead-up to and the subsequent invasion aside, the Iraqi people as a whole are no less civilized than those of any other nation.

I admit to not having seen the episode yet, but I was interested in the thread.

Torture as a means of information retrieval, etc, for whatever reason has been abolished by the Geneva Convention. The USA is one of the countries that signed off on that. The black ops, water boarding, walling, and other torture means are illegal. The reason we can find any evidence of this practice by the United States is because Obama has adopted a full disclosure of Bush practices. As far as I know, there are still hearings going on over the full extent of these torture sessions. The person in charge of it all at the CIA and others involved with the knowledge of these practices have resigned. The Bush administration did it secretly and illegally and the people responsible are being brought to some form of justice. This was not a military action but a black ops/CIA action.

It would take more than a Colonel or General in the USAF to "allow" a torture session. It would have to be a Presidential Order. The main reason, besides the obvious legality of the situation is this information retrieved during torture cannot be and will never be considered reliable intel. The main reason for this is that people will say anything to stop the torture. Trusting this information will never prove to be good.

I once tried to bring the idea of torture (In 24) up to my father who is a Commander in the US Navy. I offered up the scenario that what if a terrorist was going to blow up NYC, and if you torture him or her, then maybe you could save millions of people.

His response: There is never, ever a good reason to torture anyone. It strictly goes against everything that we are and everything that the US military stands for. There is absolutely no justification for it. Then he proceeded to tell me that intel retrieved from torture is unreliable. He was very adamant in his response. There was no room for argument. I sincerely hope O'Neill didn't approve of the torture, if he did, then I'm afraid he's destroyed all respect I had for the character.

There's no way the military would allow it. Obviously the writers did not send this script to their military adviser, and more obviously, the Canadians do not know crap about the US military. They should not sacrifice realism for darkness.

[Demerzel]

All those countries have employed torture within the last century, some within the last decade. So for the third time, torture still happens even in the "civilized" world today. Bush and his administration may not have been the nicest of people, but they didn't authorize anything that any other head of state wouldn't or hasn't behind closed doors.

Also gotta realize that even though heads of state may ban torture, it doesn't mean that people down the chain of command won't do it anyway without authorization and off the record. And anyone who knows anything about the military knows that it happens. But we usually don't hear about it, and when we do, the media go crazy like someone said earlier.

[DigiFluid]

and more obviously, the Canadians do not know crap about the US military. They should not sacrifice realism for darkness.

Don't paint us all with one stroke. Great post otherwise, though.