The Greater Good

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I have no idea whats going on in this thread, all I can say is the thread title reminds me of this.

[EllieVee]

I have no idea whats going on in this thread, all I can say is the thread title reminds me of this.

I love that film.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

I have no idea whats going on in this thread, all I can say is the thread title reminds me of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUpbOliTHJY

LOL!...crusty jugglers!

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I love that film.

LOL!...crusty jugglers!

Perhaps a humorous example of how "the greater good" can go too far. Though honestly it’s more a documentary about the English countryside

[Krazeh]

Delaying the termination of the transfer is gambling with Rush's life which he gallantly risked to uncover what the LA was doing. Telford sold out Earth and murdered 30+ people. Rush is on Destiny and Telford is not. Rush is a very valuable member of the crew and Telford is not. Frankly, I am at a loss to understand why you value Telford so much over Rush?

I don't value Telford so much over Rush. I simply value their lives equally and don't think they should willingly sacrifice a man if there's a chance to save him.

You put forth that Rush would be in less danger than Telford but you can't make that claim. And frankly even if true, it is not Rush's duty to risk or sacrifice his life for Telford.

CARGO SHIP. Nicholas howls, his body arched so severely that he is almost breaking his own spine, as he is blasted by the taser again. As the jolt ends, he rolls over onto his stomach and whimpers in anguish.

KIVA: This will eventually kill you.

RUSH (breathlessly): You'll be killing Telford too.

KIVA: That might just work out for the best, given that he's been compromised.

Clearly she has no interest in keeping Telford alive, and the only reason his body is still in one piece is because she wants access to Rush's conciousness. As such I think I can put forward the claim that Telford would be in more danger than Rush in her hands.

As for it not being Rush's duty to risk or sacrifice his life, he already made that decision when he chose to go on the mission. Noone forced him to do it and he must have known that they wouldn't necessarily be able to pull the stones if he got into danger otherwise there would have been no need to even have a discussion about him being on his own. I doubt Rush went ahead without realising he was putting himself in a great deal of risk, after all what would have happened if the LA had initially thought he was Telford and then realised at a later point he wasn't? Or if they hadn't put a tail on Rush?

Again I disagree. I see no point in them killing Telford.

Not a view shared by Kiva if the episode is anything to go by.

Again I see no point in risking Rush's life to save Telford. You can't assume how long Rush will be kept alive nor continue to subject him to whatever they are doing to him.

No I can't, but as I've said previously Rush went into this with open eyes knowing there was a certain element of danger. As it is Rush doesn't even know that anyone is aware that he's contacted or been captured by the LA. He's not going to be expecting to have anyone pull the plug on the stones anytime soon so will be doing whatever he can to ensure he's kept alive long enough to escape or be found. Also, for all we know at this point he's using the opportunity to try and find out as much as he can about the LA and doesn't even want the stones disconnecting.

I feel for Telford if he was indeed brainwashed but imo it doesn't justify risking Rush's life.

Saving the life of a brainwashed man over that of a man who willingly put himself in danger? You don't think there's any justification in that?

You can't make that assumption at all. She would never have killed Olan if he had been good enough to have got them close. The fact she did shows she didn't think so. It is far more likely that without Rush's help they may never have been successful.

That's not the implication the show gives. Rush as much as admits he was lying about the state of Olan's work. She killed Olan to demonstrate to Rush her commitment to having the problem solved. And now she's got Rush why does she even need Olan? No matter how good his work may have been.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. We need to agree to disagree.

You've mentioned this several times and yes everyone is entitled to their own opinion but if we just agreed to disagree everytime there was an difference in opinion it'd make for very dull discussions don't ya think?

[Eternal Density]

"the lesser of two evils" doesn't give anyone the right to do whatever they like simply because there's a worse alternative.

And surely Young should realise that he can likely learn more from Rush than he can extract from Telford, plus Rush is in danger and is a greater security risk in the hands of the LA.

[s09119]

"the lesser of two evils" doesn't give anyone the right to do whatever they like simply because there's a worse alternative.

And surely Young should realise that he can likely learn more from Rush than he can extract from Telford, plus Rush is in danger and is a greater security risk in the hands of the LA.

But doesn't it? If you have to choose between two horrible things, wouldn't you choose the lesser? Or would you choose nothing and see the even worse alternative?

[Krazeh]

"the lesser of two evils" doesn't give anyone the right to do whatever they like simply because there's a worse alternative.

Eh? So if there's 2 options, one of which is worse than the other you shouldn't take the better optiion? In the situation in Subversion inaction isn't an option so you've got to pick the lesser evil course of action.

And surely Young should realise that he can likely learn more from Rush than he can extract from Telford,

What is he going to learn from Rush? So far he's been tortured, taken to an unknown planet and presumably shown some work that looks similar to his previous work at Icarus. Oooo, what a bounty of information.

plus Rush is in danger

Which is something he willingly put himself into.

Quick question to all those who have said the stones should be cut to protect Rush, if the SGC hadn't been tailing Rush or he hadn't been identifed as an imposter at the outset how do you think he was planning to get back to Homeworld Security and his own body? I mean he went into the situation thinking noone else knew about him so has no idea anyone knows he's made contact or been captured. Do you not think he may have a plan of his own and that he might not even want to be disconnected yet?

and is a greater security risk in the hands of the LA.

Why? What are all these secrets Rush knows that Telford wouldn't have already had access to?

[EllieVee]

Well, Rush can dial the nineth chevron for a start.

[Blackhole]

I don't value Telford so much over Rush. I simply value their lives equally and don't think they should willingly sacrifice a man if there's a chance to save him.

You keep saying you value both their lives equally but you insist that Rush must because he volunteered for the mission, and as such, assumed risk, continue to risk his life for as long as necessary to save Telford. Rush volunteered to find out if Telford was the mole and what LA is up to. He has been successful on both counts. He doesn't owe Telford anything. Why must he continue to risk his life for Telford; who sold out Earth, invited an attack on Icarus Base and murdered 30 plus people? You have completely ignored Telford's obvious villainy. Your assertion of his obligation to Telford is ludicrous both from any sense of honor and individual intrinsic value to Destiny.

Clearly she has no interest in keeping Telford alive, and the only reason his body is still in one piece is because she wants access to Rush's conciousness. As such I think I can put forward the claim that Telford would be in more danger than Rush in her hands.

You may be right or she said that to scare Rush. Frankly even if she fully intends to kill Telford upon his return, so what? Telford deserves it and Rush has absolutely no duty or reason to continue to go on risking his life.

As for it not being Rush's duty to risk or sacrifice his life, he already made that decision when he chose to go on the mission. Noone forced him to do it and he must have known that they wouldn't necessarily be able to pull the stones if he got into danger otherwise there would have been no need to even have a discussion about him being on his own. I doubt Rush went ahead without realising he was putting himself in a great deal of risk, after all what would have happened if the LA had initially thought he was Telford and then realised at a later point he wasn't? Or if they hadn't put a tail on Rush?

Not a view shared by Kiva if the episode is anything to go by.

No I can't, but as I've said previously Rush went into this with open eyes knowing there was a certain element of danger. As it is Rush doesn't even know that anyone is aware that he's contacted or been captured by the LA. He's not going to be expecting to have anyone pull the plug on the stones anytime soon so will be doing whatever he can to ensure he's kept alive long enough to escape or be found. Also, for all we know at this point he's using the opportunity to try and find out as much as he can about the LA and doesn't even want the stones disconnecting.

This argument is ludicrous. What duty does Rush owe to a traitorous and murderous Telford? Besides Rush is on and is immensely valuable to Destiny. Telford is not and has little if any value.

Saving the life of a brainwashed man over that of a man who willingly put himself in danger? You don't think there's any justification in that?

Absolutely none.

How many times do I have to keep saying that Telford is a traitor and mass murder. Why is Rush obligated to save Telford at all? For some reason that I can't fathom you expect Rush to risk his life for Telford because he volunteered for the mission. How does volunteering obligate him in the slightest and why is Telford worth saving? I feel for Telford if he was indeed brainwashed but it doesn't change the reality of what he did. If he could be saved without risk to Rush then terrific but to insist Rush is obligated to do so is ludicrous imo.

That's not the implication the show gives. Rush as much as admits he was lying about the state of Olan's work. She killed Olan to demonstrate to Rush her commitment to having the problem solved. And now she's got Rush why does she even need Olan? No matter how good his work may have been.

Agreed Kiva is ruthless and impulsive. All the more reason to get Rush away from her as soon as possible.

You've mentioned this several times and yes everyone is entitled to their own opinion but if we just agreed to disagree everytime there was an difference in opinion it'd make for very dull discussions don't ya think?

Look we both have had our say. The point of a debate at least in my mind, is to exchange arguments back and forth. When it is clear that the same points are being made again and again there is no point in continuing. I don't agree with your conclusions and you don't agree with mind. Why don't we agree to disagree?

[Krazeh]

Well, Rush can dial the nineth chevron for a start.

If we're talking address then I can't help but think someone may have mentioned to the people back on Earth how they got the gate to connect in one of the visits after being stranded on the Destiny. If we're talking calculating the power requirements then I'd be very suprised if the necessary information, formulas, calculations etc weren't backed up somewhere at the SGC/Homeworld Security. So both bits of information Telford could have probably got his hands on and passed to the LA already.

[EllieVee]

If we're talking address then I can't help but think someone may have mentioned to the people back on Earth how they got the gate to connect in one of the visits after being stranded on the Destiny. If we're talking calculating the power requirements then I'd be very suprised if the necessary information, formulas, calculations etc weren't backed up somewhere at the SGC/Homeworld Security. So both bits of information Telford could have probably got his hands on and passed to the LA already.

And yet, they've been unable to make a connection. Rush can do that and given he's done so previously (question mark over whether they know about Eli), they obviously value him over Telford. Let me flip it around. You seem unwilling to sacrifice Telford but are happy to sacrifice Rush.

[Krazeh]

You keep saying you value both their lives equally but you insist that Rush must because he volunteered for the mission, and as such, assumed risk, continue to risk his life for as long as necessary to save Telford. Rush volunteered to find out if Telford was the mole and what LA is up to. He has been successful on both counts.

Undoubtedly he was successful on the first count, dunno if he's fully there with the second count tho. Yes he knows they're trying to get on board the Destiny but they probably had an inkling they were probably upto that anyway. Other than that does he really have any useful information about what the LA are upto?

He doesn't owe Telford anything. Why must he continue to risk his life for Telford; who sold out Earth, invited an attack on Icarus Base and murdered 30 plus people? You have completely ignored Telford's obvious villainy. Your assertion of his obligation to Telford is ludicrous both from any sense of honor and individual intrinsic value to Destiny.

Given that what we've seen of brainwashing in the SGverse it leaves people in a state where they are not in control of their own actions, that'd mean Telford was a puppet with no free will so I don't see that he has an obvious villainy. No more so than, for example, a Goa'uld host. As for Rush owing Telford anything I never said he did. What I did say was that Rush volunteered to go into a dangerous situation to find out what the LA were upto and that needs to be a consideration when deciding what action to take with the stones.

Furthermore, as I asked in my response to Eternal Destiny above, how do we know that Rush wants the connection broken? He might very well have a plan of his own that he's pursuing. And what would we do if we hadn't had a tail on Rush to see him make contact and be captured or if the contact had appeared to go well?

You may be right or she said that to scare Rush. Frankly even if she fully intends to kill Telford upon his return, so what? Telford deserves it and Rush has absolutely no duty or reason to continue to go on risking his life.

Perhaps he's going on risking his life to actually complete what he started and find out as much as he can about the LA's activities? Why is that not a consideration when deciding what action to take with the stones?

This argument is ludicrous. What duty does Rush owe to a traitorous and murderous Telford? Besides Rush is on and is immensely valuable to Destiny. Telford is not and has little if any value.

As i've said above I've never claimed Rush owes a duty to Telford, however the fact he put himself willingly into a dangerous situation has to be a consideration when considering whether to break the connection or not. Your arguments for the immediate breaking of the connection take no consideration of what Rush's view on the situation is and whether he has any plan, which knowing him is probably safe to say he does.

Absolutely none.

How many times do I have to keep saying that Telford is a traitor and mass murder. Why is Rush obligated to save Telford at all? For some reason that I can't fathom you expect Rush to risk his life for Telford because he volunteered for the mission. How does volunteering obligate him in the slightest and why is Telford worth saving? I feel for Telford if he was indeed brainwashed but it doesn't change the reality of what he did. If he could be saved without risk to Rush then terrific but to insist Rush is obligated to do so is ludicrous imo.

So if Telford is acting as a puppet, which as I said earlier appears to be the case for SGverse brainwashing, you think he should still be held accountable for his actions? It doesn't bother you that he might not have been in control of his actions or able to exercise his own free will?

And again, I don't believe i've ever said Rush is obligated to risk his life for Telford. Should he expect to risk his life so they can find out everything they can about the LA? Yes, that was the whole point of going on the mission. And just because Telford may or may not tell them anything doesn't mean that Rush may not be in the middle of finding things out.

Agreed Kiva is ruthless and impulsive. All the more reason to get Rush away from her as soon as possible.

Again you're assuming that Rush doesn't have a plan and wants the stones to be disconnected. He willingly contacted the LA and, given his nature, I find it hard to believe he didn't consider a number of plans for potential possibilities that may arise.

Look we both have had our say. The point of a debate at least in my mind, is to exchange arguments back and forth. When it is clear that the same points are being made again and again there is no point in continuing. I don't agree with your conclusions and you don't agree with mind. Why don't we agree to disagree?

Unless you're stating that your position cannot be changed regardless of what is said then I don't see the problem with continuing. To be honest I'm intrigued to see if you can come up with an argument that is compelling enough to change my view on one or more of my points but so far your entire argument appears to be based on the need to save Rush at all costs, at the expense of another man's life and totally disregarding any consideration that Rush may well have gone into the situation knowing he could be captured and that he doesn't actually want the stones to be disconnected yet.

And yet, they've been unable to make a connection. Rush can do that and given he's done so previously (question mark over whether they know about Eli), they obviously value him over Telford. Let me flip it around. You seem unwilling to sacrifice Telford but are happy to sacrifice Rush.

I would imagine it's fairly complex maths, which would mean that it'd probably take some time for someone new to get to grips with it fully so I don't think it's all that suprising that they're still working on it.

As for being happy to sacrifice Rush, I'm not in the slightest bit happy to do so. But I can realise that Rush firstly has an obvious value to the LA which means they're going to keep him alive and secondly went into the situation believing that noone was watching his back so he'd been responsible for his own safety and getting back alive. Both of which are considerations I think would be taken into account by both Young and O'Neill when deciding what to do with Telford.

Further, all these arguments for the breaking of the connection fail to take into account that Rush must have had some idea/plan before he made contact with the LA. Would look great if Telford says nothing so they break the connection and Rush gets brought back onto the Destiny just before he's about to make a major breakthrough at the LA base so they're left with no information beyond a confirmation that the LA is definitely trying to access the Destiny but no idea as to where they're staging their attempt from.

[EllieVee]

Actually, it doesn't matter where they're staging their attemot from as long as they're prevented from making a connection, which could easily happen if Rush was able to get back to Destiny and stop the dial in.

[Krazeh]

Actually, it doesn't matter where they're staging their attemot from as long as they're prevented from making a connection, which could easily happen if Rush was able to get back to Destiny and stop the dial in.

Except there's no evidence that pulling Rush out would have any such effect. If they've got all the material related to the previous dialing from the SGC/Homeworld Security, which I see no reason to assume they haven't, then it'd be a case of working through it until you fully understood it. Yes it would take longer but I don't think that Rush is some sort of magic key and without him you cannot ever possibly dial Destiny. He makes implementing his work quicker, but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible without his assistance.