The Greater Good

[Blackhole]

They attacked Icarus the first time for a reason related to the 9th chevron. It makes sense they are still interested

I agree

[Blackhole]

Yes, obviously, but Young knows nothing about the new Icarus-type planet they've found so why would there be any sense of urgency requiring torture? If he wants to save Rush, all he has to do is switch off the stones. So why risk both Telford and Rush's lives by venting the atmosphere?

Rush's life is only at risk if his body dies. He can open the door at any moment and repressurize the room. I think he is gambling that Telford will crack long before Rush's body gets in any real danger.

[Blackhole]

You don't think the fact the person working for the LA happened to be the person who was supposed to be leading the Destiny expedition, or that the LA attacked, seemingly with the intent of capturing, the Icarus base and therefore the route to Destiny wouldn't give Young/Jack/SGC/Homeworld Security any reason to think the LA are after Destiny? It doesn't matter that they don't know that the LA are trying, at that moment, to infiltrate the ship, they still would know that the LA must be up to something that relates to Destiny. The fact that Rush was able to even make contact indicates that they're still utilising Telford which they wouldn't be doing if they'd given up on their plans.

As for the lives Young is trying to save by torturing Telford. Yes he may be trying to the possible deaths that might result from possible action by the LA but it's just as possible that he's trying to save the life of the very man he's torturing.

I agree he may be trying to save Telford but I think the primary reason is exactly for the reason you indicated in your first paragraph, to stop whatever is their current ongoing plan.

[Blackhole]

Also its quite personal to youg he had his team of 35 people wiped out and his command at icarus destroyed Destroying a significant amount LA forces is going to save the lives or earth personnel in the long run.

True and it provides retribution.

[Blackhole]

If I was the interrogater I would think this group attacked us once, chances are they would try again. So we need information. We break the connection we lose that information and Telford

I agree that is the primary reason.

[Blackhole]

So killing him (and Rush in the process) is a better option? Telford is a highly trained soldier with an undercover background. Unless he's brainwashed and taking him to the brink of death is going to "fix" him, Young is effectively playing chicken with him in the hope he'll crack first. Not a very lever ploy, IMO.

Again it is only a risk if Young takes the air evacuation too far. I don't think he will.

[Blackhole]

So you're much happier to just have the LA kill him instead? Probably after having extensively tortured him?

Telford is a traitor and he has made his bed so now he must sleep in it. There is also the possibility that Young thinks he was brainwashed likes Teal 'c and others were and is therefore not fully responsible. Still he doesn't have the right to put Rush's life at risk to save Telford.

[Blackhole]

No, of course not, but why would anyone assume that Rush couldn't tell them the location of the base and they could then go and save Telford?

I don't think one can assume Rush would know it. The LA is going to be aware by now that Telford's consciousness has been switched with someone else. I think it is fair to assume keeping the planet's location would be a top priority for them and Rush is not likely to know where it is.

[Blackhole]

Rush is sitting in front of their computers! As for what the LA would do, I imagine it would be much the same as they're doing now.

I don't know what other course of action Young should take because it's not my area of expertise. My point is just that Young does not know about the Icarus-type planet and therefore the LA's plans to infiltrate Destiny, so I do not see why there would be any sense of urgency unless it's to save Rush, and there are safer ways (for Rush) of doing that than threatening to kill the person occupying his body.

I don't agree see my earlier post.

[Blackhole]

You're right, he might not. But given his ties with the LA he's a damn sight more likely to know than Rush is.

I agree.

[Blackhole]

Oh of course, because he's in front of a computer he must have full access to their entire system and they'll obviously be a text file somewhere where they've handily recorded the address details for the planet he's on. How silly of me to have not thought of that.

And as for the LA you don't think they'd be making a start of torturing Telford, or taking steps to reinforce their position?

The only realistic safer way to rescue Rush is to disconnect the stones, which leads back to the problem of handing Telford over to people who you know have no qualms about the use of torture or killing people when they've failed them.

Again it is Telford who made his bed and now he has to sleep in it even if Young thinks he was brainwashed.

[Artemis-Neith]

[...] The only realistic safer way to rescue Rush is to disconnect the stones, which leads back to the problem of handing Telford over to people who you know have no qualms about the use of torture or killing people when they've failed them.

That was also my first thought. Why did Young not disconnect the stones?

[...] My point is just that Young does not know about the Icarus-type planet and therefore the LA's plans to infiltrate Destiny, so I do not see why there would be any sense of urgency unless it's to save Rush, and there are safer ways (for Rush) of doing that than threatening to kill the person occupying his body.

Rush's life is only at risk if his body dies. He can open the door at any moment and repressurize the room. I think he is gambling that Telford will crack long before Rush's body gets in any real danger.

Indeed, Lahela. I'm still curious how would Young handle the same situation, if it's Telford in Scott's body? Would he play the same risky game with Telford too?
And @Blackhole if he wants to succeed with Telford, a trained soldier, he has do go till the end. And with that Young is risking the life of both Rush, and Telford. What he does is risky.

Better him than Rush. Telford made his bed now his is going to have to sleep in it.

I hope you are kidding. Telford is a traitor we don't owe him any protection certainly not if it puts Rush's life at risk.

Only answer I can think of, disconnect the stones to rescue Rush, but sacrifice Telford, cos he's the traitor, brainwashed or not.

Question: Will Young sacrifice Telford? Or is Young more interested in rescuing Telford, regardless what might happen to Rush?

[garhkal]

I don't think there's enough evidence to state that Telford has willingly sold 'state secrets' or anything else to the LA. Even if there was sufficient evidence it doesn't make handing him over to the LA to deal with as they see fit a morally superior choice or a better option than attempting to get him to hand over details of where Rush, and his body, is being held.

What do you call them having the crew list, the Icarus notes? Heck, that there even IS a Destiny?

We cant comprise our morality and toture this man to see who else was involved or if there are any more of these bombs? Are you really willing to do that?

Then if we are that willing to compromise our beliefs, are we any more worthy of living than the baddies are?

This is the point I've been trying to make it's a slippery slope so if you're going to make moral exceptions, where does it end?

Very true. What you decide to allow one time of now, may become the norm of acceptability 2 yrs down the road...

It gets ridiculous when you routinely infringe civil liberties in pursuit of safety/security which is what all your examples did. And making an exception doesn't have to lead to a slippery slope, you can make exceptions without it then having to lead any futher.

Ad how is your way not infringing on civil libeties, let alone followng the law/honoring the Oath you took (if a member of the mil or a cop)? As to the slippery slope, there have been too many instances of that happening in the past, so why would this be any different?

You're side-stepping the fact, however, that morality is not an absolute, and that there has always been a reason to break any code or law.

Just cause there has always been that reason does not make it right to do so.

No, because I don't think Young was attempting to get the location of the base purely just to find out where some random LA base was. Apart from needing to find out how far the LA's infiltration of the SGC/Homeworld Security went and what their plans for the Destiny are/were I believe he was trying to save Telford by getting him to divulge where they'd taken Rush and Telford's body.

Ok. If that is the case then, how is that an imminent threat situation that you keep on saying is worthy of torturing someone for?

Yanking the stones should be a last resort, and not something they do before they've exhausted all avenues in attempting to locate Rush. To be honest if you want to try and be all morally superior with your anti-torture stance then you need to be consistent and not just put that to one side as soon as it's not us being responsible for the torture.

Why not disconnect it long enough to ask rush where he is, then reconnect it... that way he goes back and keeps them from interrogating Telford?

They attacked Icarus the first time for a reason related to the 9th chevron. It makes sense they are still interested

And how do we know that? Could it have been that they attacked cause we were using one of their planets without their knowing/permission?

Would that be your reply which totally ignores the consequences of returning Telford to his body while it's in the possession of the LA?

Then why not beam telford(rush) back the second he confirmed he made contact, AND THEN terminate the stones, rather than waiting till he got captured...

So we need information. We break the connection we lose that information and Telford

And who is to say A) he even has that info, and B) rush has not learned it?

Rush is sitting in front of their computers! As for what the LA would do, I imagine it would be much the same as they're doing now.

Very true. AND for him to work out how to get to the destiny, he NEEDS a point of origin... which would mean he would know their addy/planet.

Rush's life is only at risk if his body dies. He can open the door at any moment and repressurize the room. I think he is gambling that Telford will crack long before Rush's body gets in any real danger.

That is assuming that nothing happens to the body he is in.

[Krazeh]

What do you call them having the crew list, the Icarus notes? Heck, that there even IS a Destiny?

I didn't dispute that he'd handed over information, I was disputing the fact that he'd done it out of his own free will. He may very well have been brainwashed or compromised in some other fashion.

Then if we are that willing to compromise our beliefs, are we any more worthy of living than the baddies are?

Perhaps, perhaps not. But they're in a situation where one way or another it's likely they're gonna have to compromise their beliefs.

Very true. What you decide to allow one time of now, may become the norm of acceptability 2 yrs down the road...

We make moral exceptions all the time. Soldiers shoot enemy combatants in times of war, Cops kill individuals when they're threatening the lives of others, but i'm yet to see killing/murder being the norm of acceptability.

Ad how is your way not infringing on civil libeties, let alone followng the law/honoring the Oath you took (if a member of the mil or a cop)? As to the slippery slope, there have been too many instances of that happening in the past, so why would this be any different?

I'm not saying that torture isn't infringing on civil liberties, of course it is, but it's still very different to infringe on one individual's civil liberties in a specific instance than it is to infringe on everyone's civil liberties as a routine task.

Just cause there has always been that reason does not make it right to do so.

Doesn't make it wrong to do so either.

Ok. If that is the case then, how is that an imminent threat situation that you keep on saying is worthy of torturing someone for?

The immediacy of the situation is brought about by the unique situation they're in with Telford and Rush's consciousnesses bein in each others body. I'm sure if they were in different circumstances then they would have been happy to take much longer in dealing with Telford.

Why not disconnect it long enough to ask rush where he is, then reconnect it... that way he goes back and keeps them from interrogating Telford?

Are you serious? So apart from the fact that there's no evidence Rush would have the slightest clue where he is, or that the link could be reestablished you don't think that the LA wouldn't just end up torturing whoever ended up in Telford's body until they got all the info they thought they could out of them and then go ahead and kill them?

And how do we know that? Could it have been that they attacked cause we were using one of their planets without their knowing/permission?

Yeah, it was all a massive coincidence....

Then why not beam telford(rush) back the second he confirmed he made contact, AND THEN terminate the stones, rather than waiting till he got captured...

This was dealt with in the episode, where Jackson reports that the meet is covered by an beam-jamming system which means they can't beam Telford out.

Very true. AND for him to work out how to get to the destiny, he NEEDS a point of origin... which would mean he would know their addy/planet.

Firstly why would the LA have given him a computer with access to their entire system? Secondly what makes you think he'll be able to crack any security/encryption they have on there within a) a reasonable timescale and b) without being noticed? Thirdly even if he did have access to their systems and managed to break their encryption what makes you think they'd have details of the planet's location in a nice easily findable location?

As for needing to be told a point of origin to dial, who said he's going to be doing any dialing? He's there to deal with the power issues, it doesn't require him to actually dial the gate. Not to mention that simply knowing the point of origin doesn't actually provide a third party on another planet with any useful information about your location.

That is assuming that nothing happens to the body he is in.

Yes it does, but we also have fairly decent knowledge of what happens to a human body when you deprive it of oxygen and/or expose it to a low pressure environment. So we are able to take a calculated risk to get the result we're after.

[garhkal]

Doesn't make it wrong to do so either.

If it wasn't wrong to do, it wouldn't be getting talked about.

This was dealt with in the episode, where Jackson reports that the meet is covered by an beam-jamming system which means they can't beam Telford out.

That is why you scan for stuff like that BEFORE you let the person get there.