'Subversion' (118) General Discussion

[Commander Zelix]

including the conflicts between Greer and Scott and Eli and the other scientists that arose because of it

I like how the event of Divided were some kind of background on this episode. I also like the scene were Brody obeys Young's command to depressurize (or something) the room where Telford in Rush's body is. With Eli and Volker "questioning" it. Same as Wray not liking to be kept in the dark. It was all well played out.

[FoX-1028]

Excellent! I just watched it (couldnt watch it live) this was the best episode since Space.
9.5/10!
Things i liked:
O'neill
Jackson
The Goauld cargo ship in hyperspace (just like the ol' SG1) with the camera style of SGU
Greer going nuts trying to beat the **** out of Telford.
Greer beating Telford
A very mad Young
Rush screaming.. again
O'neill on Destiny
Brody, when Young gave the order..
& the great ending... now what im gonna do in the wait for the Finale

Things i didnt liked:
Baby shower.
hmmm nothing more! this ep was Perfect!

[SciFiRick]

While ultimately I did like the episode for the plot progression, tenseness, and the interesting road it traveled... I have to say I'm disappointed in a few things.

#1: Predictable. I saw everything coming a mile away, from Rush getting kidnapped, to Young playing hardball on Telford. I kept hoping for some twist on them getting information about Telford, but was even more upset at Jack agreeing to torture. It reeks of the waterboarding arguments on terrorists, which is just plain stupid.

#2: Someone want to explain to me why Daniel was here? At first it was because I thought he'd actually confront Rush, since the two knew each other. I wondered if it was because he knew the man. But really, Daniel is an archeologist; why the hell is he taking pictures instead of studying some ruin or artifacts somewhere?

#3: Why the hell does the LA want Destiny? Not for shields, and not for weapons. They apparently had means to get information via Telford, so why the effort to gate to Destiny when they could just use spies on Earth to steal technology. The ship is billions of light years away, and they should know they have 0 methods for getting information back to the milky way. The only thing of possible interest is the "recharging from a star" but even that should be "meh" since they don't have power issues. Destiny could have information on worlds, but how does that help them? The worlds are out of reach.

And as I said, they can just steal the information and tech from Earth. They turned Telford; turn someone else! The writers better have a real good reason. If they don't give a good one, it's gonna be a gaping plot hole over the series, and only look like a way to get a third faction aboard the ship for more drama.

#4: The baby shower, and the gifts, seemed a bit.. out of place. Seriously, they can make a toy truck on the ship? There is enough cloth to make a small T-shirt? Wouldn't those resources be better saved for something a bit more important?

Anyway, there were no music montages, so that's a bonus, and made the episode better overall.

I liked the Young and Rush back-and-forth early on; it's really showing that the two men, despite differences, are learning to talk to each other.

Eli, who seemed to side with Young early on in the series for no reason I can fathom, seems to be getting more of an earful about the distances the man will go. Hopefully this makes him step back and think. His naivete is going on far too long for my liking, and I'm beginning to feel a bit dislike for him, my favorite character.

Also two weeks to next episode, which sucks. It's only balanced by the fact that there are 2 more episodes, then a four month break to the start of the next season, which is gonna really suck.

Good Observations. I think bringing Daniel in helps keep the ties of Stargate together and remember Daniel did a lot of investigating during the SG-1 series and he also became a great negotiator. He really progressed beyond studying ruins. Actually, the entire SG-1 team were instructed by Hammond to investigate a lot in a lot of episodes. O'Neal knows Daniel's ability first hand and would make sense to call upon Daniel to do recon.

I thought the same on the toy truck but depicts Riley has other talents. Once the baby is born you would expect the infant to be clothed. So sacrifices are being made to help provide for the child. That should be considered an important resource need. I would think other crew member pregnancies are possible but the writers would need to think through that before writing it in.

Why does LA want Destiny? You got me on that one. If Telford thinks that Earth people shouldn't be on the ship then why does LA want to be on the ship. I am not sure what they would gain. Why learn how to charge your ship with a star when you already have hyper drives. I assume this part of the storyline will present itself soon.

I do not and have never liked the amount of time between seasons. Season 2 has already been given the go ahead and filming has already started. So, why can't the season start once there is say get 13 or 14 episodes in the can and be filming the last few episodes during the season.

This episode was top notch. The writers are in a zone now. Hopefully, they will continue to be in the zone.

[Pharaoh Atem]

and how convenient the ship didn't jump out of FTL

[Major_Griff]

and how convenient the ship didn't jump out of FTL

Speculation for Incursion

Spoiler:

That's what I'm thinking will happen just before Telford runs out of Air

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

Jelgate's Two Cents

I really do try to be objective when I write these reviews. I really try to think of the bad and the good of each Stargate Universe when I write these reviews. And my favorite SGU episodes have their shortcomings. They are minor of course but they exist none the less. But try as I must I am really struggling to find faults in Subversion. It was really that good in all angles from plot to characters development to creepy villains. Even Richard Dean Anderson brought in some great scenes to this episode. But we are getting ahead of ourselves. Jump into my time machine to the start at 9 PM.

I blame this one to me watching the preview scene as I found the teaser a little slow. First of all I think the “Previously on SGU” scenes were a little drawn out and unnecessary for this episode. Yes with SGU being a serialized show we need information about past incidents but there is a thing as too much information. Did we really need to know all that stuff about Emily? Not much to say about Rush telling Young about his “dream” since it was just exposition. I am glad we got it out of the way fast so we could gets to development of what was going to happen in this week

I honestly didn’t think much about Young and Rush arguing about why Rush should pose as Telford and try to find information about the Lucian Alliance leak. I just the two were arguing like they constantly do. So imagine my surprise when Young reports to Jack about the possibility that Rush may be the spy instead of Telford. It was quite an interesting sight to see and good use of dialogue. Furthermore for the most part I liked Rush’s detective work on locating the Alliance to prove Telford. It shows why he was on Icarus on the 1st place. The guy is a smart man in many areas except maybe breaking someone’s front door. Although I have to say the many camera angles as Rush moves around Earth quickly got on my nerves,

Before I return to the events that were occurring on Destiny I was quite under whelmed on Daniel’s role in this episode. It seemed like nothing more then a stunt cast for Michael Shanks. Seriously that was no point to having Daniel be the one who is following Rush. His job can have been played by any one single person.

I really liked the two TJ scenes that dealt with her baby. They were to the point and I felt had just the right amount of emotional impact. The part with the baby shower had one of those “sweet” moments. So often we find Destiny fighting one another its nice for them all to come together for someone else. I really liked Riley’s tractor gift which further proves how awesome he is. Also TJ doubting the baby’s life was a good point because it’s something I have been wondering the same thing. With the limited resources Destiny have it will be hard (borderline impossible) for a baby to survive on Destiny. After all infants need so much nutrition in those first months of life. So I am happy this issue was brought up.

You can look at Telford and Young in two stages. First there is the stage of when Telford has not been accused as a traitor. Let’s take about this part first. There is not full blown hate between the two just a lot of tension it seems between the two because Young and Telford don’t exactly like each other. What is interesting is how the two colonels throw accusations at one another. Why these accusations aren’t false it’s interesting to say it really points to something I tend to forget. These characters on SGU are about as flawed as can possibly be so I like that tension.

Now we go onto the part where Young arrests Telford (don’t worry I’ll get to Rush) because he has the proof that Telford is a traitor. This is where gets to full blown hate. It got real bloody to the point that Telford punched Young. And that is what I love about this show. It shows how stressful the show is. But you know after some time it get repetive of Young showing Telford the horrible deed and asking where Rush is. Yes it was entertaining but you can only hear the repeats of that so many time. But I do have to severally show my support of Young showing the destruction Telford has caused for his betrayal. It paints a picture of just how brutal this scenario is.

I may not be the biggest supporter of Rush and what he does but I would never say Robert Cartyle is a bad actor. Such a thing is probably blasphemy around here. But when the Lucian Alliance and Kiva were torturing Rush it was beyond awesome. The scene of him in severe pain was so realistic. I kind of thought I was there watching Rush cry agony over all that torture. That’s how good the scene is. Speaking Kiva she is one cold-hearted person. In a lot of ways she reminds me of Rush in that Kiva has no emotion what so ever as long as it gets the job done. Look at the part where Kiva has the Alliance scientist killed. Nothing what so ever in emotion she watched him die. But I have the wonder why the Lucian Alliance wants to get to Destiny when there is no way to get home? It’s a puzzling question

Before we go farther, raise your hands if you want Wray to be thrown out of an airlock. Come on be honest. I wonder if Wray had a purpose in this episode besides her whining about not knowing all the information and bothering Young. Don’t get me wrong I want to see civilians and military clash but it seemed a little unnecessary in this episode unless her wanting to know information is going to be crucial further along the line.

As a Stargate fanboy it was so cool to see Jack on the Destiny as he joins the interrogation of Telford. In fact RDA was good overall in this episode. It felt a lot like the Jack of the early SG1. I quite liked it in seeing all his one liners at the most inappropriate time. It’s interesting to note that Telford didn’t confess until Jack was with them. I am curious is just because he thought Young was bluffing or is their a more sinister reason.

Finally the ending is so full of tension. I have not seen an episode end so much like this one in a long time. I know Young wants to find Rush and Lucian Alliance to get some answers like everyone else but to vent the atmosphere from Telford’s room is jaw dropping. Words can not explain how shocked I am this happened

Do u mind putting this in the fan review section causes the places for in depth reviews like this.

[Pharaoh Atem]

Do u mind putting this in the fan review section causes the places for in depth reviews like this.

he does. many of us look forward to jel's 2 cents

[meo3000]

Best.Episode.Ever...of SGU that is.

Damn i miss RDA, the guy is just a natural.

The story was great, the pace was great, Jack was awesomely great, Kiva was sexy great, hell, Rush, Tellford, Young. Thats what i call STARGATE.

Three things were not so great:

- The baby shower. Do i need to say more? Eli using his phone instead of a kino to film?
- Scott and his big mouth. Seriously, he must be one of the worst officer ever. Hes supposed to have a strong sense of the chain of command. But he cant keep it shut, even when ordered to.
- Wray. Someone needs to slap her back to her place, real good. I had it with her complex of superiority.

If its any indication of whats coming for the end of the season and the next one, then maybe theres still hope for SGU.

[jelgate]

Do u mind putting this in the fan review section causes the places for in depth reviews like this.

I always these reviews in here for someone who wants to debate/comment on one of my points buts since its a detailed review they are always in the FAN REVIEWS thread

[senilegreen]

Because of my bias against multi-part cliffhangers, such as that SGU is now entering, it didn't surprise me that I was less than enamored with this episode.

What stood out to me is how out of place both the Jack and Daniel characters seemed. Especially Jack's clowning around, which I thought was too much. Oh, the shot where the general upon exiting the room turns in the wrong direction was pretty good, but I would have liked if that was the only humor. It would have seemed more real if the Jack character was dead on serious the rest of the time.

Not surprised at the Alliance working on a second gateway to Destiny, and it brings in a much needed plot change.

My last gripe about this episode was the overly trite and all too common dialogues; Rush when he is in Telford's body, and of that <mod snip.....using the term 'slut' is inappropriate when referring to ANY of the characters. I suggest you learn their names.) when speaking with the pregnant Lt.

SGU in its first year of episodes has been very uneven. Not in production values, which are almost always very good for the SG franchise - rather in the story lines, and especially in the dialogues.

As you can tell, for me this episode doesn't rank very highly.

[AndSoItBegins]

Best.Episode.Ever...of SGU that is.

Damn i miss RDA, the guy is just a natural.

The story was great, the pace was great, Jack was awesomely great, Kiva was sexy great, hell, Rush, Tellford, Young. Thats what i call STARGATE.

You see this is where I disagree. The first two Stargate shows would never get this dark, this mature, this complicated. The first two series were black and white with no room whatsoever for grey. They didn't provide this type of tension or give us characters as flawed as those on SGU. Now its perfectly fine if the first two series were the type you preferred, the style you liked better. But SGU is a different animal. If it isn't your cup of tea then so be it but all the whining from fans of the previous shows about how it wasn't like the first two series was ridiculous. Some of us, like myself, liked the fact that SGU tried to be different. We didn't want a repeat of what came before. Hey, I love RDA and MS. I think the SG1 cast has perhaps the best chemistry for a sci fi show since the cast of the original Star Trek. And the presence of Daniel and especially Jack was appreciated, particularly from a humor standpoint. But their characters almost seemed out of place. Its like putting Adam West into the modern Chris Nolan Batman films. It would not work because West's Batman existed in a place totally different from the Gotham of the modern movies. No, the difference in storytelling between SGU and the first shows is not that extreme of course but that's the best example I could come up with this late in the evening. Anyway my point is whether you like SGU or don't you have to admit that is different than its predecessors. And tonight's episode was no exception. I've seen almost every episode of SG1 and I can't think of one show from that series that matched the tone and mood of "Subversion".

[senilegreen]

Why would Telford betrayal his country and his planet? Has he lost his mind?

A damn good question. If the writers try to leave the reason Telford voiced in this episode stand, then I will be disappointed in them. Perhaps they will eventually reveal that he was, after all, subjected to some sort of mind control device.

[senilegreen]

You see this is where I disagree. The first two Stargate shows would never get this dark, this mature, this complicated. The first two series were black and white with no room whatsoever for grey. They didn't provide this type of tension or give us characters as flawed as those on SGU. Now its perfectly fine if the first two series were the type you preferred, the style you liked better. But SGU is a different animal.

Amen. Agree with pretty much all you wrote. This is why I found the goofy Jack-isms out of place in this episode.

[OutandAboot]

#2: Someone want to explain to me why Daniel was here? At first it was because I thought he'd actually confront Rush, since the two knew each other. I wondered if it was because he knew the man. But really, Daniel is an archeologist; why the hell is he taking pictures instead of studying some ruin or artifacts somewhere?

A) A familiar face for the fans?

B) He's been doing military stuff since season 1, don't think it's fair to call him just an archeologist anymore after everything he's been through.

[senilegreen]

#3: Why the hell does the LA want Destiny?

I wondered about that too. It doesn't make sense. However, I am expecting (as apparently you do too) for the answer to be revealed, at least in part, over the next two episodes.

I kept hoping that Rush, once captured, would simply blurt out to his captors that the LA were idiots for wanting Destiny as it is on a one way course, and that the people on board will die sooner rather than later.