'Subversion' (118) General Discussion

[Ian-S]

Excellent Episode.

I've always thought of the LA as arrogant buffoons, their self belief in themselves boarding on the delusional.
Perhaps the reason they want the Destiny is that in that delusional self belief they think they can succeed where Rush & Co have failed and turn the ship around, bring it home, and keep it for themselves.

It would make one hell of a trophy that's for sure.

[globex]

Great episode finally something interesting to watch.

[PG15]

Does anyone else think that Brody is part of LA because he didn't have a prob of venting Teldford's room; that seems like something someone who didn't want to be discovered will do

I think it was a follow up to the events of Earth when Brody decided to side with Rush after what Telford and his gang did. Very nice to see that TPTB haven't forgotten about that little plot thread!

[RedXian]

Overall this was a fascinating episode.

I feel that Daniel was a little out of place in the episode. He's an archaeologist with some soldier training and combat experience. Of all the people Jack trusts, Daniel would not be at the top of the list who would have the skills to tail someone.

Jacks presence in this episode felt a little out of style. The comment about missing the Nation Security briefing was amusing. And going the wrong way to Telford's cell was a nice beat. I really found amusing that Jack dropped the whole teabag into his cup while talking to Young. But the majority of his humours comments jarred with the darker end of the show. They cut into the intensity of the scenes at unusual places
and both Young & Telford just ignored him, it was weird.

The best Jack moment was when he said "Time to come clean, son". I could almost hear Don S Davis when he said that.

Kiva is an interesting character. She's a refined and civil woman, yet she has surrounded herself with violent men. I get the feeling she has an aversion to violence but recognises its necessity and is not afraid to use it.

I have to wonder what Kiva meant by the "Next question, whats yours?". It is a question that prompts me to ask a few more: Is Colonel Telford actually Colonel Telford? Or could he have already been be swapped with an LA Agent since he went undercover?

Can a body swapped person body swap a second time? If so there is a way to permanently swap two people using 3 people and 4 stones.

Overall this was a strong episode and I eagerly await until the next one.

[Sami_]

This was a really good episode, not because of the guest stars (although I liked their performances) but because it was the first time they elegantly introduced new characters and a new plot which was very interesting in my opinion.

[Gallienus]

Another thing I thought about, when it came to this episode, was my original feelings on how the Alliance got on board the ship. The method now is obvious, but somehow I had convinced myself that the LA got onboard Destiny around the same time as Rush and the others, from a different location ("another Icarus planet") and had somehow arrived in a different part of the ship then the others. The battle at the Icarus base being as much a diversion as a means to stop the SGC from getting to the ship first. I then had it in my head it had taken this long for the alliance types to make it to the part of the ship where the others were and that would be the "incursion" part.

Of course, I only bring it up because now its quite clear that I was way off, and I still don't know how or why I came up with that particular scenario, I mean why would the "Destiny" (man I hate that name...) have two gates anyway, but still, the real story looks to be just as interesting. So no complaints from me on that point. I am wondering though why or how the alliance gets into the gate room without being shot upon instantly. In the preview, Kiva seems to be standing there just looking around, not really reacting to anyone or anything. I'd like to see how that plays out, and frankly that's one reason why I came up with my earlier scenario. Cheers!

[SciFiRick]

Excellent Episode.

I've always thought of the LA as arrogant buffoons, their self belief in themselves boarding on the delusional.
Perhaps the reason they want the Destiny is that in that delusional self belief they think they can succeed where Rush & Co have failed and turn the ship around, bring it home, and keep it for themselves.

It would make one hell of a trophy that's for sure.

There is no doubt there is some reason for the LA wanting to board Destiny. But, they can't be so confident to think they can bring it back. Even if they could figure out how to tap the solar powered engines using a ZPM/ZPM's and with no known Super Gates would still take lifetimes to return. The only way they or anyone could bring it back to Earth is to do what Woolsey did getting Atlantis to Earth in a matter of seconds which was using the ZPM's with careful calculation to use a Worm Hole Drive which we all know worked.

If the LA or Rush in this case can actually get a connection which we all know takes the power of a planet can only mean more people can get on the ship, bring supplies and equipment but they still can't return to Earth. I would think that the power needed for Destiny to make a connection back to Earth would require similar power. Bringing a ZPM want do it. Of course, it wouldn't be surprising that the LA has a ZPM at their disposal.

One more observation. If the LA are so interested in getting on board of Destiny surely Telford is in the know about Atlantis. Wouldn't it make more since to get on board Atlantis? It is just sitting there off the coast of San Francisco. Of course there is more security but just a little bit closer to home than Destiny.

Any thoughts?

[Lost]

I hope this is the one that finally breaks the ice and gets this series in gear.

[boomerxyz]

These are great questions and analysis, SciFiRick. This whole plot line doesn't make any sense to me, but then again, this entire series doesn't seem to make logical sense based on the other series. It's driving me bonkers. And when are they going to open the crates on the ship! Isn't one of the first rules of survival to know what resources you have available to you? I think the writers need to start plugging these logical holes. Seems like they are just reaching for anything to make the show work.

[Arwis]

Have to agree. This episode is worth to have its place in Hall of Fame for stargates.

[wargrafix]

Once thing you need to know is that Jack bauer always backs up his bluffs.

lol, i know the stupid series "24" is ending. But it would really be nice to see the other side get a crack at Jack.

[RedXian]

There is no doubt there is some reason for the LA wanting to board Destiny. But, they can't be so confident to think they can bring it back. Even if they could figure out how to tap the solar powered engines using a ZPM/ZPM's and with no known Super Gates would still take lifetimes to return. The only way they or anyone could bring it back to Earth is to do what Woolsey did getting Atlantis to Earth in a matter of seconds which was using the ZPM's with careful calculation to use a Worm Hole Drive which we all know worked.

If the LA or Rush in this case can actually get a connection which we all know takes the power of a planet can only mean more people can get on the ship, bring supplies and equipment but they still can't return to Earth. I would think that the power needed for Destiny to make a connection back to Earth would require similar power. Bringing a ZPM want do it. Of course, it wouldn't be surprising that the LA has a ZPM at their disposal.

One more observation. If the LA are so interested in getting on board of Destiny surely Telford is in the know about Atlantis. Wouldn't it make more since to get on board Atlantis? It is just sitting there off the coast of San Francisco. Of course there is more security but just a little bit closer to home than Destiny.

Any thoughts?

Perhaps the LA know a lot more about the Destiny than we do. The assumption is, that all their information is coming from the Icarus Project. Maybe the LA have access to information about Destiny and how to control it

[Petra]

Anybody know if Colonel Carter and Dr. Jackson are still working for SGC or is know Homeworld Command? I mean I know Carter is captain of the Hammond but I'm wondering who does she report to?

It’s not clear. All we know for sure is that the captains of the ships don’t report to the SGC, so she’s not under Landry’s command. It’s been said in New Order that the whole X-303/304 program falls under Homeworld Security’s command, but things have been muddled up since then by the IOA. In fact if I remember correctly IOA seems to make most, if not all, decisions concerning the ships. The truth is, command structure above and around the SGC has never been explained in details.

In light of this, Sam is working either for HWS or the IOA. We don’t know anything about Daniel’s current assignment, so it’s hard to say. I presume that the third movie SG-1 was supposed to fill in the blanks.

You see this is where I disagree. The first two Stargate shows would never get this dark, this mature, this complicated. The first two series were black and white with no room whatsoever for grey. They didn't provide this type of tension or give us characters as flawed as those on SGU.

*clears throat*

Abyss. The Other Side. Red Sky. Unnatural Selection. Prototype.

And this is just off the top of my head.

No one on SG1 would have done what Young did at the end.

Jack in The Other Side – murders Alar in cold blood
Janet in Rite of Passage – walks into Nirti’s cell, pulls a gun on her and threatens to kill her if she doesn’t cure Cassie
Jack in Full Alert – threatens Kinsey that he’ll let the Trust murder him if he won’t cooperate
Teal’c in Talion – he plants a freaking bomb in the pouch of the Jaffa he was interrogating, walks away and detonates it.

And there are more.

Yeah, that's why I'm not really buying the 'Jack trusts him' explanation for Daniel's involvement. While Daniel has participated in stakeouts and such as a part of SG-1, I can't think of a single time where he was the apparent leader of a bunch of SFs on a surveillance mission like in this ep, it just didn't make sense for the character, IMO. Besides, if the LA has infiltrated the SGC/Homeworld Security to the point where Daniel's the only person that Jack can trust not to be a spy, he's got much bigger problems on his hands than figuring out where they're taking Rush.

This. Exactly. Daniel’s presence and use in this ep made no sense whatsoever. Not because he’s just an archeologist and should have been on a dig somewhere – I think majority here agrees that he grew out of this stage a long time ago. But because no matter how much experience he got off-world, this was an Earth-based military operation and shouldn’t have involved civilians. Seriously, Jack is a freaking head of the HWS, he should have the best specialists under his command; people specialized in this sort of tasks. And like Evenstar said, if Daniel really was the only person Jack could trust – 1 person out of hundreds or thousands – Rush and Destiny would be the least of Jack’s problems. Therefore I agree with jelgate that his use here was just a stunt casting. Shame.

On a totally shallow note though, I thought Daniel looked great, hot even – and this is coming from someone who never found MS particularly attractive.

As for Jack himself I have mixed feelings. I loved seeing him and I think he was excellent in his scenes on Earth. Comment about National Security briefing was just the kind of understated humour fitting both Jack and the tone of the show. More importantly, Jack was serious. When he got onboard Destiny his comment about being a Corporal was cute and his going the wrong way was a nice tip of the hat towards older fans (how many times did we see him do the same thing on ha’taks?). But the humour should have ended there. His lines during Telford’s interrogation fell flat and frankly I was very disappointed by his goofing around. I want my serious, focused General back, not cosmic giddy Jack again. You hear me, writers?! I know it’s tempting to write Jack as a Walking One-Liner, but both he and the show deserve better.

Right, onto the actual episode.

I loved it, particularly the ending.

Loved Young throughout. There’s no doubt in my mind that a lot of his actions were based on emotions, again – but man, that guy can be so sneaky and ruthless and paranoid and determined and I love it!

Greer once again proved his loyalty and inclination to do morally wrong things for a good cause. He’s my favourite character, hands down.

Camille was her annoying self, which was cool. On a shallow note, Ming-Na looked really lovely – more lovely than usual, I mean. Plus she, LF and LDP blew me away with their acting. Excellent job!

Loved TJ and baby shower. Such a sweet blip of happiness in the lives of Destiny’s crew. And the following talk between TJ and Chloe was great. I would have preferred to see James or Park instead of Chloe, but it was still a nice scene.

Rush was great. Heh, I may actually end up liking this guy. Who knew? And the torture scenes? Just wow.

Kiva looks like a great character. One that may finally convince me that LA is a real threat and not a joke it was in SG-1. I can’t wait to see more of her.

Now, my 2 disappointments about this ep:

Scott. He’s just so..bland. He seems to be more innocent and blind to the darker aspects of life than Daniel was at the very beginning. It’s frustrating to watch.

Telford. Or rather, that Telford really was a spy. I kept expecting some plot twist that never came. The whole thing was just too obvious. Plus I admit that LDP’s acting was so good that at some point I started to believe him that he really was innocent. I thought it would be cool if the traitor turned out to be Scott. Actually I was rooting for it, especially when Telford told Scott that he couldn’t lie. Seemed like foreshadowing. And then..it was Telford. His crazy speech was a huge let-down too. Lame, really lame.

Overall, cool episode, one of the best ones so far.

[Eternal Density]

I was expecting Telford not to know he was a spy, so the plot twist was that there wasn't a twist! The big reveal was that he was fully brainwashed into sympathising with the LA, which I didn't see coming.


Teal'c would totally do to Telford what Young did.
And I can't help but wonder whether the script just said "RDA does something goofy".

[Eternal Density]

I don't know if it's the best but it's certainly way up there