'Sabotage' (116) General Discussion

[SG7]

And how many people got offended? I suspect it's less than those who were offended claim.

Agreed. As I said, there were things that I didn't like. But I never saw anything that offended me. Stuff that I thought a little over the top for my liking but I still found great things to say about the show all the way through. And if we all loved every second of the show, then that may not necessarily be a good thing either.

There will always be scenes we don't like, characters that rub us the wrong way, or even complete episodes that weren't to our taste. And that is only normal. Sometimes we need to have those less than "loveable" moments to help us appreciate the rest of the really amazing things that we do like about the show

The first half of the season was great. The second half of the season has turned out to be way more amazing to me in MHO. And seeing the most brilliant performances by AH in the past several episodes, has me truely appreciating what amazing acting is!

[SG7]

Giving and receiving reputation from other posters with the little black star in the left column beside every post. How much we have is represented by the green blobs beneath our avatars.

I wondered that!

I actually liked the episode myself. Then again I've been loving most of the episodes post hiatus. Mainly because of the amazing performances from Alaina Huffman.

The only thing I didn't like about the episode was seeing how "the three musketeers" got back on the ship. I felt that the viewing audience got ripped off and the writers missed a great opportunity for some serious drama. Other than that the episode was great for me. And lately they have all been leaving me wanting for more!

[garhkal]

i dont think any of this is really relevent to SGU, so in order to save those previous attack posts from deletion let me get this thread back on topic.
can you body swap and use that body to murder someone then body swap back? CSI will have a pretty hard time figuring that one out.

No cause all the Forensics would be of the body you were IN. BUT another angle to hit, is when they DO catch that body, would the SGC allow him to use the defense of 'I was allowing someone from a space ship millions of light years away, to use an ancient device that instantly transfers your consiousness from one body to the other, to use my body so he could have presumabily visited friends and familiy. I had no idea your honor, he was going to murder anyone while in me."

[Saquist]

Or perhaps TPTB didn't realize how many people would get offended by some of the stuff in the first half of the season. And possibly with feedback from the fans, they may do things for the second season a little differently then they did for the first season.

Extremely unlikely.
Like SG-1 there was probably the stipulation by the TPTB for some sort of explicit material for the first episode or episodes. Which is why this is far from art for me.

As an artist and a writer, I'm going to have to take offense at what you say here; I cannot stand it when someone declares that something isn't art just because it's different or new.

But there is nothing new or different. In art everything has been done just in different combinations. TV shows aren't art alone, they been compromised by commercialism. The point of the show is ratings so as to sell sponsorship, the point is popularity, the point is mass appeal. Not only is it a compromise in the the expression, it's a dominating compromise in the expression.

Movies in the theater are more artistic than TV shows because they are willing to take more risk with the expression (I don't condone every expressive risk) and the message because it's a one time statement...like real art is supposed to be. Movies have infinitely less time than a series yet they take their time to tell a story in an expressive way.

Yes, there is a commercial aspect to television, but that's a necessary evil.

It's that evil that diminishes the expression.
Have you ever heard of Calvin and Hobbes. It's one my...(MOST) favorite comic strips. Bill Watterson the artist behind the strip never sold his art to a sponsor to commercialize it and spread it's fame. He never sued for infringement when people reproduced look-a-like Calvin & Hobbes characters for different purposes. He fought against his publishers to merchandise his art and he has never licensed his art. He doesn't do it for money. That was an artist.

Today society creates artist for commercial gain to near exclusivity.
That is not the essence of what an artist is.

Art addresses and reflects the society its describing at the time. SGU is set in western society, even if they're on a space ship across the universe. Declaring a work of fiction, a story, to not be art simply because you don't like how it treats certain issues, and because it has commercial breaks, pretty much discards as trivial the fantastic job that the writers, special effects teams, and actors do

.


You're right about one thing. Art does reflect the society it's describing at the time. But what makes it different from all the other sponsor sell-outs?
Calling it for what it is should denigrate the work of the writers and CGI artist. They know what they are. They know they are doing it for money. Actors don't go to Hollywood to merely act do they? No. They go to make huge sums of money. They go because they love the attention the power and the glory that comes from holding the attention and adoration of millions.

But Art isn't all that...It's an expression of what's inside.
Should an expression of your thoughts and feelings be constantly subjected to it's dollar value?
I don't think so.

If you don't enjoy it as entertainment, which is what art is, then why are you watching the show?

Art is not entertainment. Art includes entertainment, there is a difference.
Art is expression meant to provoke the human senses.
I watch SGU to give it an opportunity to say something worthwhile.
Its the same reason why I discuss things with people that don't agree with me.
But after this season (much like any conversation) if SGU says nothing worthwhile, if the characters are hopeless, the environment is hopeless and the drama continues to be forced then I will walk away knowing I had listened to what they were trying to say and found there was nothing redeemable.

Say what?

Yes...exactly. That's the point of expression.

[LtColCarter]

I don't think art and it's diversity is an excuse for offensive material. Everyone may be offended by different things but the first part of the series was an active attempt to offend people as well as to attract people to the show by being shocking.

The problem is TV aren't artistic...they are commercial. They are designed to attract viewers and they'll do so at nearly any length they can get away with. Art trys to be understood even at the cost of people loosing the concept.

These last two episodes have done a good, maybe even a great job at story telling which is not just an art form but a skill.

I found the return of the castaways....predictable and the escape predictable....(that's not necessarily a bad thing) Even a predictable of happily ever afters can be well told and interesting. SGU is getting there...and it's been far too long.

Writing isn't an art form? ROFLMAO...I think writers would take offense at your comment. I find writing to be a craft that takes imagination and talent. Just like TV is an art form. People on TV are actors...and the last time I checked...acting was an art form.

I also disagree with your comment about the first part of the series being an active attempt to offend people. Some people will be offended no matter what you show them. There's always someone who is going to get their toes stepped on.

As an artist and a writer, I'm going to have to take offense at what you say here; I cannot stand it when someone declares that something isn't art just because it's different or new. Yes, there is a commercial aspect to television, but that's a necessary evil. Something has to pay for brilliant actors and talented writers. I don't think the show has been sensationalist in its appraoch at all.
Art addresses and reflects the society its describing at the time. SGU is set in western society, even if they're on a space ship across the universe. Declaring a work of fiction, a story, to not be art simply because you don't like how it treats certain issues, and because it has commercial breaks, pretty much discards as trivial the fantastic job that the writers, special effects teams, and actors do.

If you don't enjoy it as entertainment, which is what art is, then why are you watching the show?

[harakiri]

I don't think art and it's diversity is an excuse for offensive material. Everyone may be offended by different things but the first part of the series was an active attempt to offend people as well as to attract people to the show by being shocking.

The problem is TV aren't artistic...they are commercial. They are designed to attract viewers and they'll do so at nearly any length they can get away with. Art trys to be understood even at the cost of people loosing the concept.

These last two episodes have done a good, maybe even a great job at story telling which is not just an art form but a skill.

I found the return of the castaways....predictable and the escape predictable....(that's not necessarily a bad thing) Even a predictable of happily ever afters can be well told and interesting. SGU is getting there...and it's been far too long.

People do like things differently and art is an perfect example to this. I will say SGU is art and deserves to be seen as it as well. This is how I feel about it,other can see it as crap,but so is it with painted pictures and art in general.
As example:
I remember you complaining about the show for over 1 half of the season,and it sounded like it was total torture for you to watch. Most of the other people talking about the latest episodes did not feel the same way,and I will assume this happens when people look at something some would say is art and some would think it is an insult to be commented as art.
I also remember what you wrote after "Lost" ,"Happy First Great Episode SGU." if someone took this as an insult because for some of the others this was just another good episode it would`nt be so strange. I was happy to see that you finely got "payed" for keeping up with all the pain you went through every Friday,but I would perfectly understand if someone felt it as an insult you not stating "in your opinion" somewhere in the opening. This could easily been picked up as that all the others here so far have been watching all "bad episodes",which simply is`nt true for everyone.
Its great that people have different feelings about the definition around "art" . If it was possible to make art that everybody loved I would have been very surprised,and I would have been unsure if that could be seen as art at all,but rather as something completely beyond understanding.

I will gladly admit that the second half of this series is so far the most "complete" than the first,but its just how I personally feel it. I wanted more aliens,"gateing" and in general actually more action. More that happened,and less earth-stories,with or without stones. After the opening with "Space" and "Divided" it was OK. with the Rush story in "Human" and the Greer story in "Lost" . In "Sabotage" the stone was used for a reason and the story on earth was not so dominate,but it was anyway a bit interesting,even though I wanted to watch more what was happening on Destiny. All the mysteries are still with the ship so I would think most of people here like to see more about/and on the ship,than there is people who want to watch earth stories,but who am I to declare that?

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

As an artist and a writer, I'm going to have to take offense at what you say here; I cannot stand it when someone declares that something isn't art just because it's different or new. Yes, there is a commercial aspect to television, but that's a necessary evil. Something has to pay for brilliant actors and talented writers. I don't think the show has been sensationalist in its appraoch at all.
Art addresses and reflects the society its describing at the time. SGU is set in western society, even if they're on a space ship across the universe. Declaring a work of fiction, a story, to not be art simply because you don't like how it treats certain issues, and because it has commercial breaks, pretty much discards as trivial the fantastic job that the writers, special effects teams, and actors do.

If you don't enjoy it as entertainment, which is what art is, then why are you watching the show?

I second that. If you don't like it, it doesn't mean it's not art, it just means you don't like it. There's lots of art I don't like; it doesn't change what it is. As for commercialism, artists sell their art. The starving artist thing gets stale pretty damned quick and all the biggies, all the old masters, they sold their stuff. If they didn't, we likely wouldn't even see it today. (Think Sistine Chapel - the old guy didn't do that for free). Sensation? I have to throw out a big so what there. If shows were dull and never roused our interest, or our ire, would we watch them?

Or perhaps TPTB didn't realize how many people would get offended by some of the stuff in the first half of the season. And possibly with feedback from the fans, they may do things for the second season a little differently then they did for the first season.

I sincerely hope not, or I hope the changes aren't the ones people are calling for. Science fiction has always pushed the envelope as far as this sort of thinking.

This is true. That said, I'm still very skeptical that it was a very significant portion of people who were "offended" by any particular event of the early season. Then again, I might be biased considering SGU hasn't offended me yet...and I also don't think it should matter anyways. The old addage of "you don't have the right to not be offended" comes to mind.

And how many people got offended? I suspect it's less than those who were offended claim.

A small but vocal minority. Just because you scream louder doesn't make you right. Just because you scream louder doesn't mean anyone has to listen to you. From my own experience, when the screaming starts, I tend to discount *everything* said by screamers, good, bad or indifferent.

Agreed. As I said, there were things that I didn't like. But I never saw anything that offended me. Stuff that I thought a little over the top for my liking but I still found great things to say about the show all the way through. And if we all loved every second of the show, then that may not necessarily be a good thing either.

There will always be scenes we don't like, characters that rub us the wrong way, or even complete episodes that weren't to our taste. And that is only normal. Sometimes we need to have those less than "loveable" moments to help us appreciate the rest of the really amazing things that we do like about the show

The first half of the season was great. The second half of the season has turned out to be way more amazing to me in MHO. And seeing the most brilliant performances by AH in the past several episodes, has me truely appreciating what amazing acting is!

I love when something pisses me off. Maybe I'm weird that way. I love a good villain, someone that makes me hate them. I love stuff that forces me to think outside of whatever construct I've got set up in my head at the moment. From the amount of pretty serious conversations I've taken part in here and elsewhere, I'd say that a lot of other people feel the same way. Make us think.

[J_schinderlin56]

Why is Carter the expert on Hyperdrives? She designed the 1st earth Hyperdrive on the 302, and the ones on the 303, and 304 directly with the help of with the help of the Asgard. Maybe.

[Girlbot]

This may have been addressed by others and since I won't go back 275 posts...........
I am curious about why Wray didn't contact anybody while she was on earth to discuss the issue of the attemted coup, and update the supreriors. She certainly had plenty of time. They could at least have shown someone coming to see her and the fade to black. Or did I miss something

[LtColCarter]

This may have been addressed by others and since I won't go back 275 posts...........
I am curious about why Wray didn't contact anybody while she was on earth to discuss the issue of the attemted coup, and update the supreriors. She certainly had plenty of time. They could at least have shown someone coming to see her and the fade to black. Or did I miss something

Good point...I didn't see that being addressed

[SG7]

This may have been addressed by others and since I won't go back 275 posts...........
I am curious about why Wray didn't contact anybody while she was on earth to discuss the issue of the attemted coup, and update the supreriors. She certainly had plenty of time. They could at least have shown someone coming to see her and the fade to black. Or did I miss something

Nope. Can't say you missed anything. At least if she said anything to anyone while she was on earth. It was never shown or mentioned in the episode.

[Girlbot]

I am finding as time goes along in this series, that there are many gaps for me. Things left unsaid, or parts of storylines that I wish would be addressed and not just left there hanging in the ether.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

This may have been addressed by others and since I won't go back 275 posts...........
I am curious about why Wray didn't contact anybody while she was on earth to discuss the issue of the attemted coup, and update the supreriors. She certainly had plenty of time. They could at least have shown someone coming to see her and the fade to black. Or did I miss something

If Wray mentions the coup, she risks mentioning her part in it, or having that part come out. Plotting a mutiny wouldn't earn her many points.

[Saquist]

Writing isn't an art form? ROFLMAO...I think writers would take offense at your comment. I find writing to be a craft that takes imagination and talent. Just like TV is an art form. People on TV are actors...and the last time I checked...acting was an art form.

Of course writing is an art form. Art takes many forms.
However. Even writing is less of an art form when you're getting paid to to not only do it but to do it as some one else wants...then it's just a service...a skill.

The same with all the other forms mentioned.

I also disagree with your comment about the first part of the series being an active attempt to offend people. Some people will be offended no matter what you show them. There's always someone who is going to get their toes stepped on.

I don't agree with general rationalization.
And I don't see how that makes it less offensive.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Of course writing is an art form. Art takes many forms.
However. Even writing is less of an art form when you're getting paid to to not only do it but to do it as some one else wants...then it's just a service...a skill.

The same with all the other forms mentioned.



I don't agree with general rationalization.
And I don't see how that makes it less offensive.

I mentioned the Sistine Chapel further up-thread as an example of paid work. Artists get paid all the time to produce certain works. it doesn't make them not art.