"Sabotage" (116) Pre-Airing Discussion/Speculation Thread

[prion]

You're right - it's just fiction - a tv show - but tv is more often than not a reflection of human nature - even when it's scifi. In this day and age, even the lowest tv show can teach, show, demonstrate. They can have ramifications and I don't think anyone would disagree that television does have power. Look at what so many of us have learned in this discussion alone! So many people haven't truly understood how deeply such an episode as Sabotage can affect us. And btw? Rape can be many different things. It's not only a violent act that results in the physical violation of one person's body by another - that's why so many of us are upset.

And I'm afraid this has been done before (and/or variations on the theme) - badly - and by these same men in both Stargate SG1 and Stargate Atlantis. Let me count the ways:

SG1: The Goa'ulds are a very good example but because they were evil, it was constantly driven home how horrible it was to have NO control of your body. But when came to the good guys - no such message was ever given. Examples:

Hathor: Daniel (and yes, even Jack in a way) is raped. Daniel is raped physically and mentally while under the influence (does date rape ring a bell?), while Jack has a symbiote implanted without his permission. Both men were violated. Remember how it was dealt with? No? That's because it wasn't.

Holiday: Machello's famous body swapping machine (which I believe the whole idea for the body swapping on SGU came from) and please note that the writers didn't allow Teal'c to shave Jack's head while Teal'c inhabited Jack's body? For Machello's part, he had no trouble taking one man's body for his own and leaving Daniel's mind in Machello's broken and dying body, thus forcing Daniel to experience things he should never have to deal with - yet.

Avalon - Part 2 and the next episode, Origin: Daniel and Vala use the Ancient transporter and end up with their minds inside the bodies of two innocent people in an Ori controlled village. Remember how that ended? Their minds were swapped back just as the two innocents were burned to death. Remember any ramifications for that? Nope, me either. Because the writers never even bothered to allow SG1 to show any remorse or sympathy for the innocent couple.

SGA:

Duet: Cadman and Rodney share the same body - but when Rodney falls asleep - Cadman takes over without his permission. Everyone, Cadman included, think the whole thing is funny. She even uses Rodney's body to kiss the man she's attracted to. Yeah, that's a violation but not according to the writers - who again, thought it funny. And remember, once Rodney was back in control - he felt everything that had been done to his body. Do we really think that once the mind is reconnected to the body - it won't know what went on?

Irresistible: Remember Lucius who used a potion to make himself "Irresistible" and thus use that power to bed women who would normally not give him a second glance? Yeah, that was rape too - big time. But was there any edginess? Discussions of the moral and ethical ramifications? Not even once - instead, it was handled with humor - not complete outrage.

So you see, we do have history to show us that these producers/writers don't have a clue how to handle touchy subjects and, in fact, often consider them funny - if they consider them at all. So yes, I think we should complain when we see even the possibility of such a thing happening again and no, I don't think it's wrong based on history to distrust their ability to handle this 'delicately'.

Sorry.

Just want to say, very good post, with very good points and examples. Yes, the thing that many of us are trying to point out is that TPTB do not have a good track record in handling these situations. Daniel had absolutely no fallout from what Hathor did to him. And Lucius? Eh, what SHOUDL have happened when his wives fell out of influence is strung him up.

[Coronach]

Just want to say, very good post, with very good points and examples. Yes, the thing that many of us are trying to point out is that TPTB do not have a good track record in handling these situations.

Yet most of us understand this, and have understood it this entire time. And it'd be one thing if people were saying "I may not end up liking this storyline, because TPTB haven't done these types of things well in the past".

Instead, the majority of the comments (not yours...and not necessarily limited to GW) are strawmen about how those of us that aren't pre-judging it must condone rape, and how dare we bother to take a more fair and objective approach to such an issue being portrayed on-screen.

I'd also (still) make the argument that this episode has the potential to be handled well for a few reasons:

1) It's written by a freelance writer (hey...a woman at that). While you might be thinking that this doesn't matter because all episodes go through review with the other writers, I'd point out that the ultimate end-material is a rewrite by the original script writer.

2) The entire premise of SGU has been a stressing of how a lot of aspects are going to be quite different this time around. What makes you assume that a writer won't be able to better flourish in a serialized, darker format as opposed to a more episodic, lighter one? I think it's pretty safe to say that the issues we had in previous SG incarnations may be non-issues in SGU, given the complete overhaul in style.

[Flibby]

I know the idea of Teal'c getting tortured worries you guys, but DON'T WORRY! He can take it since he's a man!

[Shan Bruce Lee]

Just want to say, very good post, with very good points and examples. Yes, the thing that many of us are trying to point out is that TPTB do not have a good track record in handling these situations. Daniel had absolutely no fallout from what Hathor did to him. And Lucius? Eh, what SHOUDL have happened when his wives fell out of influence is strung him up.

Didn't Atlantis send him back to the planet so they could decide what to do with him?

[sideburns]

Of course it can (and probably will) affect us on an emotion level, especially if the episode plays out exactly as the sides suggest. It may very well not, but nobody has been arguing that this is somehow not a big deal. Rape is a very big deal, and showing it in this context will elicit any number of emotional responses. This doesn't mean this material just shouldn't be shown though.

Also...my other post got deleted when I responded to you about something from your other post, but that bit is still there...so I'll ask again. In response to what you said here:



Why do you generalize and think that every man likes or condones adultery? Strange gender generalization coming from someone who is clearly against such thing...unless you're not?



What about the fact that this episode is being written by a freelance script writer. And a woman at that?

I did notice your reply was somehow erased. But I'm glad it's here now.

Okay, as to your first paragraph - I have to disagree with you. In fact, many people have been arguing that it's 'no big deal', that it's not rape, etc. etc. That's why some of us are still involved in this discussion - to make it clear that it does and will matter. That said, the other reason many of us are still involved is that we have no faith in the writers - based on their history - to deal with such a subject with both real dignity and respect. If I thought for one minute that such an episode could be told by TPTB with real skill, I'd be looking forward to it. But again, I have only their history to go by.

Was Daniel's rape handled well? Was Lucius' form of date rape handled well? Was Cadman's use of Rodney's body handled well? No.

As for the generalization of all men approving of adultery - that was not, by any means, my intent. However - I do believe a good portion of the audience these guys think they're writing for (the 18-39 year-old male demographics) will be titillated by the idea and even if they themselves would never enter into an adulterous relationship, many will still have fun with the idea presented by this device. I'd love to believe the writers had noble ideas when they thought this up - that they fully intend to examine it on the show, etc. but again, I only have 12+years, 2 shows (10 years for SG1 and 5 for SGA) and 2 movies worth of history to go by.

Now, as for the episode being written by a freelance writer and a female - well, A) my position doesn't change and B) having some idea of how this script writing works - the script she may have originally turned in could have been changed to what we're now complaining about - original scripts often bear no resemblance to what we see on the screen - they're usually jumping off points. I hesitate to add my suspicions about this 'freelance' writer, btw - but it sure is convenient. TPTB can blame this some wayward casting person who sent out the call and now on a 'woman' scriptwriter. And yeah, I admit I have some doubts. Between SG1 and SGA, there were 314 episodes (100 for SGA and 214 for SG1). Now, for SG1's 214 episodes, there were approximately 3 female writers: Katherine Powers who did something like 9 of the total episodes with story credit for a couple, Heather Ash, who did maybe 4, and Jackie Sumuda who shared credit with James Tichenor - BUT - I don't believe any of them wrote past season 6. Which means out of 214 episodes, a hot 13 or 14 were written or co-written by women.

SGA had a whopping 3 females: Treena Hancock & Melissa Byer who co-wrote "Instinct" and Holly Henderson who shared writing credit with Carl for "The Game". There was also Jill Blotevogel, but she got story credit only (Martin got teleplay - meaning writing - credit for "The Storm - part 1"). WOW! Two whole episodes out of 100.

So based on the above - how much do I believe Sabotage was completely written by a woman? Or that the final product will be hers? I could buy a female getting story credit...maybe. But you know, even if Sabotage was 100% written by a woman, that doesn't negate a thing. Now, unless this female is also a creative consultant to the show, has some executive standing, don't we all know that NO script is going ANYWHERE without Wright and Cooper and their stamp of approval, summer vacation or not? Let alone a casting call going out without the big guns seeing the script and green-lighting it? And if the writer was a free-lance writer - which TPTB rarely use (a handful for SG1 and two or three for SGA) - then the idea of the script being green-lighted to the point of casting calls and scripts marked 'final draft' are even more ludicrous to believe. Sorry, I just can't buy it. But I've been accused of being stubborn before

[Coronach]

Okay, as to your first paragraph - I have to disagree with you. In fact, many people have been arguing that it's 'no big deal', that it's not rape, etc. etc. That's why some of us are still involved in this discussion - to make it clear that it does and will matter.

Here on Gateworld? You'd have to point me to a post so I could see this for myself. If anyone's ever really said that this is isn't rape and that rape isn't a big deal, then shame on them.

That said, the other reason many of us are still involved is that we have no faith in the writers - based on their history - to deal with such a subject with both real dignity and respect. If I thought for one minute that such an episode could be told by TPTB with real skill, I'd be looking forward to it. But again, I have only their history to go by.

Then this is where we differ. The trailers alone (for what they're worth) suggest a change and incorporation of new elements already. If they are able to incorporate these changes, I see no reason the writers can't make the change from episodic--->serialized stories.

And (as I suggested before), how do we know that these writers won't do better with this new serialized format? That's something we don't have history to go by.

Was Daniel's rape handled well? Was Lucius' form of date rape handled well?

Both of which TPTB have expressed concern over after the fact. Maybe they didn't realize it at first, but they do now.

Was Cadman's use of Rodney's body handled well? No.

What part of this strikes you as handled poorly? (I'm assuming you mean from "Duet"). There weren't any hard-hitting moral issues brought up in that episode that pertained to body-sharing (unless you count the kiss).

The slash fandom certainly didn't seem to care then, and neither did the Sheppard/Weir fandom over the kiss in "The Long Goodbye".

I don't think these are very good examples of this type of issue not being handled well.

[EDIT] Wanted to add this:

As for the generalization of all men approving of adultery - that was not, by any means, my intent. However - I do believe a good portion of the audience these guys think they're writing for (the 18-39 year-old male demographics) will be titillated by the idea and even if they themselves would never enter into an adulterous relationship, many will still have fun with the idea presented by this device.

First, define "a good portion of the...18-39 year-old male demographic"

Second, what idea is that? The abuse of a woman's body by means of non-consensual sex (i.e. rape) when that woman's mind is elsewhere? Oh yes...men will definitely have fun with that...

If you can't tell, I'm still getting the generalization vibe from your newly-reworded statement. Though I thank you for saying it isn't your intent anyways.

[prion]

Didn't Atlantis send him back to the planet so they could decide what to do with him?

Yes, but since the writers thought he was such a fun character, he returned for another episode. Gah, trying to forget "gunfight at the dutch village" episode which was such a waste of Kolya.

[PG15]

Both Faith and Human were freelance scripts.

That said, all scripts do go through the other writers and, ultimately, Wright and Cooper.

[Shan Bruce Lee]

Here on Gateworld? You'd have to point me to a post so I could see this for myself. If anyone's ever really said that this is isn't rape and that rape isn't a big deal, then shame on them.

I don't think anybody would deny that what we're talking about is rape. The only counter-argument was that there could be an "unknown factor" like Wray giving consent.

I still contend that there's no concrete evidence that the "intimacy" means actually having sex, and that's where the moral question comes in... how far is too far? A hug? A kiss?

[Eternal Density]

I think that SG-1 and Atlantis weren't about handling the fallout from this sort of thing. Psychological and emotional fallout didn't come up a lot because that wasn't the focus of the show. (I'm not saying that lets the writers off completely for not showing that there were issues that had to be dealt with, but it does explain a bit of why they didn't choose to show this sort of issue being handled.

SG:U is said to be a lot more about the characters, character development, their interactions, and such like. Which means that dealing with this sort of issue is actually part of the intention of the show. I think they will aim to address this sort of thing, rather than brush it aside as they did on SG-1 and Atlantis.

Shan: In my opinion, Wray would object to any sort of intimacy involving her body, and has every right to. So even a hug between Eleanor-in-Wray and Rush would be over the line ethically. There's not a chance Wray would give permission for that, and I think we can safely assume that it does go at least that far. Rush is going to be in major trouble, to say the least and Eleanor is lucky she'll be billions of lightyears away... although I figure she'll have her own issues with what happened while Wray was in her body. Two wrongs don't make a right (nor do three) but... well it's a very complicated situation about which we only have sketchy details.

[sideburns]

Hey guys, let me pose a question to you?

Is rape or torture worse?

Torture can sometimes include rape, but even without, could be worse. Why no outcry when Teal'c gets tortured?
Does this not remind veterans who were tortured in captivity of their helplessness and pain?
Is that not the exact same idea as why you're all getting worked up about this?

I guess since rape is generalized as always happening to females, it's worse, since they're generalized as being frailer and unable to deal with it. (generalization, not my opinion)

Had any of the scripts been leaked with regards to any torture - especially graphic torture - if a casting call had gone out for the character who would be doing the torture and had been as badly worded as the one we've been discussing (I don't think I need to be specific here) - you bet we'd be up in arms. As it is, there are scenes - like in Ark of Truth where Mitchell is beaten to a pulp in one of the longest most gruesome 'fights' that many of us objected to for 'oh so many reasons'.

And if you'd really been reading the thread - you'd have noted several references to Daniel's rape as an example of how badly TPTB have dealt with this subject in the past - so the fact that it's a woman has nothing to do with it.

[PG15]

Small update:

Major D. Davis writes: “[...] 2. Which episode are you currently shooting? I remember Pain was in prep almost directly after Human finished shooting, so is Lost or Sabotage waiting to film after Pain is shot, or is my math and logic all off and you are shooting both Lost and Sabotage before Pain?”

Answers: [...] 2. We wrapped Sabotage yesterday and have moved on to Pain.

http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...ndom-set-pics/

[Coronach]

Nice...Sabotage is wrapped already. Definitely going pretty fast

[PG15]

Small update:

Iamza also writes: “When you say Sabotage has just wrapped, was that the script, or the actual episode shoot? Because if the latter, wow! Things move fast!”

Answer: Things DO move fast. We wrapped the episode and Pain started shooting on Friday.

http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...and-surprises/

[Jper]

Writer:

1x16- Sabotage: Barbara Marshall

Link

@PG15: Thought you might want to change that in your first post.