"we'll never be done"

[EllieVee]

'they're' not the only ones.

This is a DISCUSSION. Which means that any and ALL sides of the conversation are welcome. There is no such thing as being 'right' or 'wrong', 'winning' or 'losing'

People here are discussing, or attempting, to discuss their interpretations of a scene of this episode. Every person will view those scenes with their own personal preferences, opinions, feelings and life experiences coloring their views.

There is no 'Right'. There is no 'Wrong'. It's an exchange of ideas.

The goal of being here is to continue that exchange, not berate, belittle or 'educate others how wrong they are'. Cause no one here holds a 'wrong' opinion.

If anyone here can't discuss this without getting personal or taking it personally, then maybe they need to step out of the discussion and find another thread to play in.

Pot kettle black and somewhat ironic, Skydiver, but as I said previously, unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a way to respond privately on Gateworld.

[Skydiver]

it's called Private Messages, everyone but probies have access to them

now, back to the topic of the thread, the scene at the end of Justice

[Blackhole]

I won't quote your entire post, but I do acknowledge that from your perspective, Rush constitutes a possible threat to the ship. I'd like to make the argument that Col. Young is the bigger threat. In advance, I'd like to say I mean no disrespect to anyone on the other side of the debate.

There is not enough room to quote your entire post.

Good post well reasoned.

Rush could have indeed have locked the computer; doing so would not change his culpability.

We are in agreement that Rush’s dialing of the Destiny was reckless and can only be explained by the ‘greater good’ argument. It doesn’t justify his actions but does explain it and imo goes a ways to soften the overall evilness of his action. If a significant discovery is made from the Destiny, history may paint him in a far more favorable light.

I agree that we don’t know whether Rush sabotaged a successful return plan in Earth but I tend to agree with you that I don’t think he did.

I differ with you on your interpretation of the Ice Planet. Scott’s rescue was due to an improbable occurrence but that is only because we have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight as omniscient viewers. Rush’s warning was unnecessary and it cast him in a very unfeeling and callous light. Young was well aware of the departing deadline. He would have worked till the last minute and would have left Scott and returned with the sled in time to depart with the Destiny.

I read that ‘Wright and Cooper intended the character to be very different from any previous main characters in the Stargate franchise, "somebody who is not the hero, not the villain, and more of a very flawed and complex person.” ’.

You make an excellent point that it is the ambiguity of the intent behind Rush’s actions that provides the dramatic conflict that makes SGU so interesting and is responsible for such polarized views on the forum. We really don’t know yet just what lengths Rush may go to accomplish his goals; but given Wright and Cooper’s description of Rush’s character and the ambiguity of his portrayal, I think it likely that it will turn out that Rush won’t be as evil as a lot of us may now consider him.

The chair incident is a perfect example. At first I agreed with Young’s assessment that Rush took advantage of Franklin’s desperation and set up a situation where he would be able to rashly try the chair out on himself. Now, I think Rush was probably in too much in a hurry to learn about the chair and didn’t take enough safeguards and Franklin made a very foolish decision on his own. And you are right that Young could have instituted safeguards of his own. Rush was also smart enough to realize that Franklin may have been considering doing something rash and should have done more to prevent it. If it is revealed later that Rush did indeed directly intend to manipulate Franklin to try the chair then it was an extremely cold blooded action. I don’t think you can lay the blame for Rush’s framing attempt in Young’s lap because he refused to let Rush access the chair. I agree that Young probably should have taken safeguards of his own and allowed Rush and his team to study the chair; but the fact remains that under Rush's watch Franklin tried the chair and ended up in a coma. Young’s fear of the outcome was proven correct.

Something that you haven’t mentioned is the fact that Rush’s framing attempt placed Wray in command. Imo it was this action that was far more damaging than what happened to Franklin. Wray has already demonstrated that she is very self-serving and likely to follow the IOA’s agenda. Imo if she had continued in command it would have been disastrous for the Destiny.

With regard to your statement “I do not agree that Rush has proven, since coming to the Destiny, that he is a destabilizing or dangerous force. Rather, I take the view that Young is more at fault for the lack of cohesiveness, structure, and leadership aboard Destiny. This makes him more dangerous than Rush, in my mind.”

I agree that Rush hasn’t "proved" he is a destabilizing or dangerous force since coming to the Destiny but I certainly can understand how many of the crew especially Young can consider him one. The problem is Rush did recklessly endanger everyone’s life by choosing to dial the 9th Chevron’s address. His action did create a terrific amount of ill will. Even if Rush isn’t as evil as many of us would like to think he is, he still is going to have to work really hard to get people to like and trust him again, particularly Young. I agree that Young has been too hard on Rush but I think his lack of people and communication skills have in a large part brought it on.

The situation at the end of Light is perfect example. After Rush and Eli’s actions led to the safe return of the shuttle the group was celebrating. Rush walked up and Young extended a warm and gracious offer to join them. Rush rudely refused and snubbed him. Young reacted angrily and assumed that the reason for Rush’s refusal was that he had fore knowledge that the Destiny was going to refuel in the star and not be destroyed by it. I think Young’s conclusion was unwarranted but I certainly could understand how he may think that way about Rush. Rush was very rude and should have sat with them. He should have been smart enough to realize that stranding everyone on a distant spaceship was going to cause great dislike for him among the crew and that he needed to work very hard to regain their trust and friendship.

I can understand how Young’s distrust and dislike of Rush has grown and grown and how he has increasingly viewed his actions as more and more self-serving, reckless, threatening and mutinous. I can also understand how Rush has come to view Young as unable to make the necessary life and death decisions and was increasingly unfit to command. I can understand how Rush would feel the need to try to frame him to force him to step aside and I can understand how Young could view his latest attempt as an exile worthy transgression. Ultimately a perfect storm of conflict, tension and misunderstanding has steadily been building since their arrival and came to a head between them in their final confrontative brawl when Rush was marooned.

As much as I enjoy debating the finer points of who is worse or more responsible Rush or Young, I am going to take a new tact in our discussion. Both Rush and Young are critical to the Destiny’s survival. Very soon the issue is going to become moot. They need somehow to put their differences behind them and learn to get along. If they don’t begin to trust each other and work together then the ship is going to go down in flames. It will be interesting to see what direction SGU heads in once Rush returns; will their situation get worse (if that is possible) or will they start to learn to cooperate.

[Blackhole]

I thought I made it clear that the new information regarding the 9th chevron having to be earth, makes the assumption that the destination is far, an invalid one. Due to the nature of the dialling sequence being a connection code rather than a reference address, the only thing Rush knew at that point is that where ever or what ever they were dialling to requires a lot of power. As such, simply dialling elsewhere in the milky way is irrelevant, since the possiblity of being able to dial back from 9th chevron land might be laughably easy. That is an equal probability.

I can take you back to the orignal Stargate movie, where Daniel Jackson does almost exactly the same thing. He convinces them to go on an expedition when he wasn't even sure he could get them back. 3 franchises later it proves he made one of the most signifcant decisions in human history in terms of moving us forward.


I think we misunderstand each other, but if Rush is talking about an explosive transfer I take that to mean the annihilation of everything in proximity to the destination gate. "Medical assistance" simply doesn't cut it and if we look at the physical damage, you're looking at the loss of the entire SGC or Alpha site (by lost my mean wiped from the face of the planet). This wasn't a grenade going off on Icarus, the entire planet was exploding.

In a scenario where an explosion may transfer, I take these routes as being equal in terms of risk. Where they are not, it then comes down to how they weight the mission. I find it funny how people can pose this counter argument, as though the people on Icarus were just there hanging out doing some star gazing. The amount of money, time, effort in establishment and concealment, manpower and technology (the Hammond was dedicated to its defense) makes the idea that the project can be laughed off rather ridiculous. The Icarus project was obviously extremely important to someone and that isn't just Rush. He is obviously not the only one who grasps the extent of the scientific significance behind the 9th chevron address. As I said previously, they'd be delving into discovery that possibly even the Asgard never knew about.

In Stargate Physics extra power means extra distance that is why the Icarus Planet was chosen. Imo because there was a dialing code doesn't change that fact. The concerns and dangers for much greater distance gates still apply.

Rush didn't say explosive transfer he said: "Was a danger to Earth". The potential dangers I took from past Stargate episodes.

I didn't dismiss the 'greater good argument'. I just said the people who died or were stranded usually don’t consider it to be in their greater good.

I don't agree that because the people were on the base working on the Icarus Project that they had given tacit approval to be forced to evacuate there.

[Daro]

There is not enough room to quote your entire post.
As much as I enjoy debating the finer points of who is worst or more responsible Rush or Young, I am going to take a new tact in our discussion. Both Rush and Young are critical to the Destiny’s survival. Very soon the issue is going to become moot. They need somehow to put their differences behind them and learn to get along. If they don’t begin to trust each other and work together then the ship is going to go down in flames. It will be interesting to see what direction SGU heads in once Rush returns; will their situation get worse (if that is possible) or will they start to learn to cooperate.

Another good post from you, and one without any points I can find fault in.

I agree with the last part especially. The debate over who's right, who's wrong, and who's just plain nuts really is a matter of perspective and conjecture right now. It's obvious to most of us that, love them or hate them, Rush and Young must learn to behave themselves and develop at least a basic respect for one another.

I'm not sure how they're going to work through their hatred for one another to get to that point, but I suspect that the stakes will be raised with the introduction of a greater threat than anything the first ten episodes has produced. They'll have no choice but to work together. The personal feud may be resolved at that point; I imagine not, though, since it's a central dynamic of the show. Likely, it'll be put on hold at least, though.

The question might be, which of the two will be the one to make the first conciliatory move?

If I had to bet on any one person thus far introduced in the shows becoming the true villain, the natural choice is Telford. If not him, than Wray. Hopefully the writers will show us things about both of these characters that make them harder to judge. Still, one of the weaknesses of the show is that it's hard to like any of the characters sometimes, except maybe Eli.

[blackluster]

In Stargate Physics extra power means extra distance that is why the Icarus Planet was chosen. Imo because there was a dialing code doesn't change that fact. The concerns and dangers for much greater distance gates still apply.

In my opinion, the fact the the dialling code has no point of origin changes everything until you can conclusively prove that there was a great distance involved. It is easy for you to say that in hindsight but given the circumstances leading to the evacution and the fact that there was no additional information about the address in the Ancient database, I believe that assuming a great disatnce might be reasonable, but premature and certainly not the driving force behind a decision of the nature Rush had to make, considering what the address potentially means. We've already seen stargate portals traverse time itself, as far as I'm concerned, a 9th chevron address with a massive power requirement could easily be any one of: great distances to travel, trans dimensional travel which may occupy the same spatial area (meaning you don't travel 'far') and most likely, if the address is a code, what if the power requirement is to overcome shielding in a secure facility that can only be reached by stargate code. In the last instance for all you know, that secure facility may be in the very same galaxy, even on the same planet. That is the core of my point. The moment you are working with a code instead of an address, the assumption that there will be a great spatial distance traversed becomes invalid without proof, which we only have now because Rush tried it.

Rush didn't say explosive transfer he said: "Was a danger to Earth". The potential dangers I took from past Stargate episodes.

I could theorize on the effects of a planet with an active stargate exploding from past eps, and everything I can think of points to devastation at the destination gate. As far as I know, the gate might jump elsewhere due to the energy surge, but that can't be a danger to Earth so Rush suggesting it would is nonsensical. The source gate exploding might through the collapsing wormhole cause the destination gate to explode. I can't recall from a past ep where an exploding naquadah stargate has caused only minimal damage. The other option I can think of is if the planet explodes, but the mass at it's core causes it to collaspe into a small gravity well. Either through the explosion or the ensuing planetary event, the gate might be jammed open, debris might come through, or they might experience catastrophic energy discharges. This topic becomes more complicated when you consider that they had made mods to the Icarus planet stargate to prevent incoming wormholes. Are there some eps where mods like this have been done previously? Again, we are blessed with hindsight in seeing that nothing happened, but there was no way for Rush to know that, hence why I suggested that with such a list of options, the 80 survivors are either alive or dead with equal probability no matter where they go and the only unknown in terms of casualties is who is already living on the other end.

I didn't dismiss the 'greater good argument'. I just said the people who died or were stranded usually don’t consider it to be in their greater good.

I'm not sure how that is relevant to the discussion. I don't think I even typed that in response to anything you said, it looks like I was quoting Skydiver. Everyone on the Destiny considers themselves stranded and are rightfully depressed about that. The exceptions to this are Rush and possibly Eli. As far as Rush is concerned, the mission (why everyone was on Icarus on the first place) is a go. Failing to realize this mindset is predominantly why Young fails at leading Rush. I made that post looking at the counter argument as it seemed as though it was an attempt to devalue the significance of the Icarus base and the 9th chevron discovery as part of an argument that Rush intentionally condemned everyone to die for some discovery that was only important to him. The Icarus project is a lot bigger than Rush.

I don't agree that because the people were on the base working on the Icarus Project that they had given tacit approval to be forced to evacuate there.

I don't think so either.

[Blackhole]

In my opinion, the fact the the dialling code has no point of origin changes everything until you can conclusively prove that there was a great distance involved. It is easy for you to say that in hindsight but given the circumstances leading to the evacution and the fact that there was no additional information about the address in the Ancient database, I believe that assuming a great disatnce might be reasonable, but premature and certainly not the driving force behind a decision of the nature Rush had to make, considering what the address potentially means. We've already seen stargate portals traverse time itself, as far as I'm concerned, a 9th chevron address with a massive power requirement could easily be any one of: great distances to travel, trans dimensional travel which may occupy the same spatial area (meaning you don't travel 'far') and most likely, if the address is a code, what if the power requirement is to overcome shielding in a secure facility that can only be reached by stargate code. In the last instance for all you know, that secure facility may be in the very same galaxy, even on the same planet. That is the core of my point. The moment you are working with a code instead of an address, the assumption that there will be a great spatial distance traversed becomes invalid without proof, which we only have now because Rush tried it.

I will grant you that the dialing code not requiring the origin planet may reduce the certainty some that the 9th Chevron was a much greater distance gate. I don't agree that it lowers the potential risk of gating there; by your argument imo it increases it because of more unknown factors. For all Rush knew at that time, the 9th Chevron could have made arrival conditions and return much riskier.

I could theorize on the effects of a planet with an active stargate exploding from past eps, and everything I can think of points to devastation at the destination gate. As far as I know, the gate might jump elsewhere due to the energy surge, but that can't be a danger to Earth so Rush suggesting it would is nonsensical. The source gate exploding might through the collapsing wormhole cause the destination gate to explode. I can't recall from a past ep where an exploding naquadah stargate has caused only minimal damage. The other option I can think of is if the planet explodes, but the mass at it's core causes it to collaspe into a small gravity well. Either through the explosion or the ensuing planetary event, the gate might be jammed open, debris might come through, or they might experience catastrophic energy discharges. This topic becomes more complicated when you consider that they had made mods to the Icarus planet stargate to prevent incoming wormholes. Are there some eps where mods like this have been done previously? Again, we are blessed with hindsight in seeing that nothing happened, but there was no way for Rush to know that, hence why I suggested that with such a list of options, the 80 survivors are either alive or dead with equal probability no matter where they go and the only unknown in terms of casualties is who is already living on the other end.

We are in agreement on these points. That is why I recommended gating to an uninhabited planet. There would not be anyone to injure or structures to destroy.

I'm not sure how that is relevant to the discussion. I don't think I even typed that in response to anything you said, it looks like I was quoting Skydiver. Everyone on the Destiny considers themselves stranded and are rightfully depressed about that. The exceptions to this are Rush and possibly Eli. As far as Rush is concerned, the mission (why everyone was on Icarus on the first place) is a go. Failing to realize this mindset is predominantly why Young fails at leading Rush. I made that post looking at the counter argument as it seemed as though it was an attempt to devalue the significance of the Icarus base and the 9th chevron discovery as part of an argument that Rush intentionally condemned everyone to die for some discovery that was only important to him. The Icarus project is a lot bigger than Rush.

I misunderstood your post. I thought you were factoring in the ‘greater good’ argument to justify Rush’s action to dial the 9th Chevron’s address.

I agree if the others and especially Young better understood the importance Rush attributes to the Icarus Project mission then they would likely be much more forgiving and cooperative. It is my assertion that his lack of people and communication skills are in a large part responsible for this lack of understanding particularly with Young.

I don't think so either.

Good

[skarwolf]

Sometimes people tend to over analyze things. I think thats the case with Rush. All this arguing over why he chose the destination he did.

How about this, if he didn't you wouldn't have a show lol.

[Ekiel]

Rush and his psychosis

Is this really the word you wanted to use?
I knew someone who was psychotic and he was seeing and hearing things.

Did you mean Rush is psychopathic?

[jelgate]

Psyhcosis just means a person's mental condition. Not nesscairly that something is wrong

[Blackhole]

Another good post from you, and one without any points I can find fault in.

Thanks

I agree with the last part especially. The debate over who's right, who's wrong, and who's just plain nuts really is a matter of perspective and conjecture right now. It's obvious to most of us that, love them or hate them, Rush and Young must learn to behave themselves and develop at least a basic respect for one another.

I'm not sure how they're going to work through their hatred for one another to get to that point, but I suspect that the stakes will be raised with the introduction of a greater threat than anything the first ten episodes has produced. They'll have no choice but to work together. The personal feud may be resolved at that point; I imagine not, though, since it's a central dynamic of the show. Likely, it'll be put on hold at least, though.

I agree that the introduction of a new greater threat is a likely plot development and would displace tension and help them to bury the hatchet…hopefully though, not into each other.

The question might be, which of the two will be the one to make the first conciliatory move?

Good question. I have no idea who would offer the olive branch first.

If I had to bet on any one person thus far introduced in the shows becoming the true villain, the natural choice is Telford. If not him, than Wray. Hopefully the writers will show us things about both of these characters that make them harder to judge. Still, one of the weaknesses of the show is that it's hard to like any of the characters sometimes, except maybe Eli.

I also agree if Rush and Young started to work together you will need a new villain. Maybe the writers will find a way to add another Earth person like Telford to the fray – he assumes command and threatens the ship. They could use the stones but it would be much better if they worked out some way to transport him physically there. It would be a great plot twist if Rush and Young find themselves on the same side struggling with an adversary they hate worse than each other.

[Skydiver]

i use psychosis in the vein of : Rush has issues. of course, everyone has issues. The problem usually isn't that a person has them but when a singular person allows his/her issues to effect the lives of others.

If, let's say, rush dialed earth or the alpha site, everyone but him gated home, then he disconnected and redialed and ended upon the destiny all by himself....hey, his obsession with the 9th chevron hurt no one but him. no biggie.

but when he allowed his personal preferences, desires, wishes, wants, etc, to alter and change (and even cost) the lives of others, that's when he crossed a line.

If someone wants to see young as having anger issues, ok. Does he handle and control them and minimize its effect upon others? or does he fly into rages and scream 'off with their heads!!!!!' when he gets ticked off?

It's like if a person is a control freak or OCD. When they just control themselves and exert control upon their own environment, not that big of a deal. But when that person reaches a power level that they attempt to control others, that's where it crosses a line.

If I eat and i have the quirk that my food must never touch each other, my quirk. but if i then make a rule that everyone must be served on divided plates and then follow that up wtih taking away a plate of food if i see someone else's food touching, i've gone too far because i am exerting my will upon others without their consent.

Rush is fixated to the point of obsession with the Destiny, and i feel, with staying on the destiny. Will he stop himself if the opportunity ever comes up for everyone to get off to allow others to make their own choices, or will he exert his will upon them, blocking them from leaving, because he doesn't want them to?

when, if, will he cross that line? especially when it's a line he's already crossed once.

that fear is likely what Young had when Rush said 'we'll never be done'. Young, i feel, interpreted those words as 'frak you, i will not submit to you, i will not acknowledge your leadership or wishes and i will continue to fight you'.

[Commander Zelix]

I also agree if Rush and Young started to work together you will need a new villain.

Please, don't destroy one of the good aspect of the show. Rush and Young have already worked together (in fact on a daily basis).

Telford is weak as a villain and the whole thing with Young is very cliche and seem out of place. Its childish and ridiculous.

Rush is much better since he can also work for the benefit of the Destiny as long as it doesn't interfere with his personal agenda (that I presume he has). His relation with the crew remind me somewhat of Tyr Anasazi in Andromeda. There was always an aura of duplicity in him (even if we knew his agenda).

My point is that its not a problem for Young and Rush to work together. The writers must continue to make Rush indispensable (due to his scientific ability) and not too dangerous for the crew (so he just doesn't worth trouble). Which is about what they are doing with him at the moment. Keep it up SGU writers!!

[Daro]

It's like if a person is a control freak or OCD. When they just control themselves and exert control upon their own environment, not that big of a deal. But when that person reaches a power level that they attempt to control others, that's where it crosses a line.

If Rush is like a person with OCD or some sort of mental condition, then controling it (especially without medication) would be difficult for him to do. If he can't control himself due to his 'illness', then it would mean that he is not entirely responsible for his actions. From a meta-plot perspective, I doubt this is the case, because if Rush cannot be held entirely at fault for his actions, then he's not as powerful or controversial. Take Spencer for example. It's clear that Spencer had little control over his emotional state due to addiction (and possibly other problems.) We all can agree that Spencer was a danger to the ship, and most of us expected him to cause more trouble before he died. But almost all of us can also feel very sorry for him in light of what happened. While revealing that Rush has some compulsion would engender sympathy for him, it'd also make him too predictable and it'd be too easy for others to justify neutralizing him by throwing him in the brig, or marooning him.

I think there's a tendency to overdiagnose people in our society. Rush is certainly disturbed and we've probably not seen the best version of him. Young swings so wildly between being a good guy to being violent and vindictive (such as when he beat up Telford, using someone else's body) that it's easy to see he has an anger problem. Rush on the other hand doesn't make his feelings apparant most of the time and can cloak all actions behind the screen of logic and reasoning.

I think the writers will need to start tearing down that screen soon, because the emotional stakes have been raised. There's no need to make him into a good guy or make his motives known, just to show some emotional response other than contempt for the people on board that ship.

[blackluster]

I think the writers will need to start tearing down that screen soon, because the emotional stakes have been raised. There's no need to make him into a good guy or make his motives known, just to show some emotional response other than contempt for the people on board that ship.

I thought he had a decent level of connection with TJ after he woke up having slept off his withdrawal and recovered from sleep deprivation. Granted TJ's demeanor can be wholly attributed to a bedside manner of sorts, but I was pleasantly surprised that such an avenue exists for more personal interaction between Rush and TJ (interestingly enough, it would potentially lead to additional issues with Young considering their past relationship). I also thought they displayed Rush's true self quite well in 'Time' where faced with certain death or great discovery he can be more than fine to be around.