'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[nx01a]

Sometimes there are alternatives that are feasible. Sometimes, not.
Col. Young didn't murder Sgt. Spencer. He committed suicide.
Col. Young didn't murder Dr. Rush. He marooned him on a planet that happened to have a spaceship.

A spaceship that might have been there for years, a ship that crashed presumably for some reason, a ship they couldn't get open. Will Rush be able to open the ship, master its technology and fix/fly it within the few days humans can go without water? No. Leaving him there was a death sentence and Young quite rightly knew that. And Young left him. To die.

Of course, Rush can't die, he's a star, THE star; but Young doesn't know that since Young isn't a viewer.

[Carter1994]

[...] but Young doesn't know that since Young isn't a viewer.

Or does he...

[AdamTM]

Or does he...

DUNN DUN DUUUUUUUN!!!

[Carter1994]

Yep, that's right folks. All of SGU has been nothing but the wayward actions of private Young on the Enterprise's holodeck. Now all those similarities to DS9 suddenly become clear...

[Misfits]

@ Misfits...
All your arguments seem to validate Young stranding Rush. And yes, I do consider it murder since humans [assuming Rush is one] need things like food, water, shelter, etc. None of those things can be found on that planet as far as we've seen. Leaving rush there was a death sentence.
Having said that... Young potentially killing Spencer was the unacceptable behaviour that prompted the inquiry. Now it's Young potentially killing Rush. Young has no right to go around unilaterally killing people, military leader or not. And come on. Leaving Rush there to spare the crew was as much at the forefront of Young's mind as getting a better leader was at the front of Rush's when he planted the gun in Young's room. Rush did what was best for Rush and Young did what was best for Young. They both acted selfishly and, hopefully, they'll both pay for it.

In YOUR opinion, it's a murder.
In MY opinion, its marooning, not murder.

You won't change my opinion, and it seems I won't change yours.

IMO, if there's any chance that Dr. Rush can survive, the man is supposed to be very smart, then it's not murder. I've seen too many scenarios when someone was left for dead and they come back.
Heck, there were instances where they were definitively dead and they still came back.

[Misfits]

One of the reasons that he is a bad leader. If someone challenges your authority - you do not get to put them down like a lame horse.

Yes you do. Otherwise, you won't be a leader any more.

[nx01a]

In YOUR opinion, it's a murder.
In MY opinion, its marooning, not murder.
You won't change my opinion, and it seems I won't change yours.
IMO, if there's any chance that Dr. Rush can survive, the man is supposed to be very smart, then it's not murder. I've seen too many scenarios when someone was left for dead and they come back.
Heck, there were instances where they were definitively dead and they still came back.

Ok, ok. Easy now...
Of course it's my opinion. In my reasoning of the scenario, as presented ^, Young left him there to die. And, as I've also reasoned ^, Rush ain't that smart IMHO.

Hey! How cool was Chloe this episode?! I love her again just like I did in Air!

[Misfits]

A spaceship that might have been there for years, a ship that crashed presumably for some reason, a ship they couldn't get open. Will Rush be able to open the ship, master its technology and fix/fly it within the few days humans can go without water? No. Leaving him there was a death sentence and Young quite rightly knew that. And Young left him. To die.

I can agree to that Col. Young left Dr. Rush on the planet that could eventually lead to his death. However, Col. Young didn't murder him.

[Misfits]

Ok, ok. Easy now...
Of course it's my opinion. In my reasoning of the scenario, as presented ^, Young left him there to die. And, as I've also reasoned ^, Rush ain't that smart IMHO.

Hey! How cool was Chloe this episode/! I love her again just like I did in Air!

Hey, we're just expressing our own individual opinions of what we saw in a sci-fi show. All in good fun, heated at times, but still for fun. :-)

As for Chloe, I agree, It would be interesting to see how she becomes more important in SGU as time goes by. So far she hasn't done much.

[nx01a]

I can agree to that Col. Young left Dr. Rush on the planet that could eventually lead to his death. However, Col. Young didn't murder him.

Let me geek out and paraphrase Babylon 5's 'Lines of Communication'... "Minbari do not kill Minbari... but, if it is the elements? The cold? The night? Is it murder?" Yes.

[natyanayaki]

Franklin, whose choice it was to sit in the chair against Rush's orders. The Rush haters keep trying to put that one on him and it doesn't fly. Franklin's an adult, he made a choice.

Franklin put himself in a coma.

RIGHT! I'm not entirely convinced Franklin didn't have something to do with Young's framing, btw, we still don't know what's on the secret footage.

[quote]a) That he had something to do with the murder. Technically, he still could have been a suspect.

b) Greer's loyalty to Young.

Both very legitmate concerns.[quote]

I can understand that, but I do think she needed to be more tactful. Either inform Greer of the situation directly, or through someone else (Young, or Scott). Her choice not to inform Greer, and her "political" answer IMO showed her cowardice, and reminded me of Telford's actions in Eath.

She didn't act out of any bias, I clearly stated that.

I disagree, though she may have had legit concerns, she has also been shown to have a bias against him. If she had informed him somehow as I already mentioned, then I'd agree that her personal biases were not an issue. But because she removed him and other marines, and hoped it wouldn't come up I think there was more. My opinion of this situation would be different if she'd been open, just like my opinion of Young would be different if he was honest. Oh the parallels.

There will be a fight for control on the ship, and I hope Young looses.

I do too. In fact, I think Chloe should be appointed leader, and Young, Wray and Rush should be "advisers." I may actually find her interesting, as she attempts to navigate among them, and it would be interesting to see how strong willed Chloe is, and whether she'd be able to escape the manipulations of the three of them. Young, Wray and Rush all have their personal biases, and their weaknesses, all three of them need to somehow be balanced.

I don't think so. In fact, Sgt. Greer would be surprised that Col. Young didn't outright kill Dr. Rush.

And if Greer says anything to that end, I will loose whatever respect I have for the man.

I'd have to see how it plays out, what exactly Greer finds out. I'd be very surprised if that's Greer's response. Based on what we've seen so far, Greer's violence is a calculated and controlled weapon, Young's actions while calculated are not all that controlled; Young performs on emotions, and bases the best interest of the Destiny in terms of what is best for him. That's not how Greer thinks. Like Rush, I don't think Young would volunteer to sit in the chair, at least not while he's healthy, Greer -healthy or not- would sacrifice himself, to get the crew home.

Young is incompetant, unstable and overly paranoid. He is not emotionally stable enough to be in charge.

Greer has anger issues.

Scott tends to follow Young's lead a little too much.

TJ is rather neutral. She does what needs to be done, as is James.

YOUNG is the issue. Greer doesn't have anger issues, if he did, he'd have done damage, but as I've said multiple times, he's controlled and acts in the best way he knows how...considering he's probably been in the marines his entire adult life, and he was raised by a soldier (potentially a marine), it makes sense that he'd only be able to think like a marine. I can't stand Scott, but he supposed to follow Young's lead, he's an inexperience officer and he's supposed to learn from Young. TJ, though a member of the military is primarily concerned with her role as a medic, and we don't know enough about James, or Riley etc. But the fact is, Young is losing his marbles, but people don't know that he is. He's very good at hiding his issues, except in the scene in Light when he basically accused Rush, when TJ and Greer had to suggest that he let it go. If the military personnel were to see Young as he was with Rush, or Telford, during those few moments he wasn't in control, I don't think they'd be so loyal to him. Heck! I wonder if Scott, Greer, and the rest of them know about Young and TJ's affair, if not when/if they find out their opinion of Young may start shifting. YOUNG NEEDS TO BE EXPOSED!!!! For the benefit of the military personnel as well as all aboard the Destiny.

Also, the last we saw of Dr. Rush, he was alive and staring into the sky, and yet we get Col. Young murdered Dr. Rush.

You seem very intelligent, so why do I need to explain this? Did Young murder Rush? NO, but he def. attempted to murder him. I mean, what else would Young's intentions be when he strands another human being on a planet with no immediate signs of life (vegetation, water).

And you think that couldn't have happened even with a guard stationed there? That is rather naive.

Right. I think the point of the guard was to prevent someone from being forced into sitting, not to prevent someone who chooses to sit.

Not even a little bit.
Once the matter had been dropped and THE PERSON WHO SHE WAS AFTER, which was Young, Not Greer was removed then there was no need...none at all to isolate Greer unless she was using her command (JUST LIKE TELFORD) to exact revenge on a past action.

It's so transparent it's cellophane.

WOW! LOGIC! Bravo, and green for you!

Every Military officer is a legitimate suspect.
Greer never displayed anger to Spencer.
No one put him at the crime scene.
The weapon wasn't found in his position

He's AT BEST a person of interest.
There's not a lick of proof to substantiate her actions.



Acknowledge but the way she carried out justice was poor and a public nuisance. She made judgment calls based on her emotions and that's why many men have a problem with women in command. This women has emotional issues.

I can't give green to one person twice in a row, can I?

And the sexism of this statement is underwhelming.

He's not the one thinking that, unfortunately too many people think like that :-/.

You know, a thought just occurred to me.... There was a discussion a few episodes back, 'Water' I believe, wherein Greer was ordered confined by Telford and people were saying that Greer committed mutiny by asking Scott to help him. Now, I know Rush isn't military but he IS under Young's command. I didn't agree with the thought of Greer committing mutiny, but Rush.... If this were the high seas and Rush tried something like this, he'd have been hung! Given the situation of them being stranded on a ship in the middle of space, I think the correlation has relevance.

Just a thought. (shrug!)

I didn't think Greer committed mutiny, and I don't think Rush did. Any leader/ruler/commander, who is unfit to lead should be removed. IMO mutiny would be based on personal illegitimate reasons, not practical concerns. Btw, I'm not discussing the actual legal definition of mutiny, just my personal one.

I have to disagree with this as well. Most, if not ALL of the scientists including Rush, who came through the gate would be Civilian Employees of the Air Force. They had to sign contracts agreeing to be subject to the Military Chain of Command. No, they don't salute nor can they face Court Marshal, but they are subject to discipline. The only exceptions here would be Chloe and her father. Even Eli would have been forced to sign something of this nature when they offered him 'the job.' Young's right to command is based on a LOT more than just the military personnel who support him.

I agree. I don't think Young should be in charge, but he is legitimately in charge. He's may be on his way to becoming a military dictator, but he's not a power usurper.

I'm not saying that what Rush did was right, definitely not! But his way neutered an enemy [Young] while keeping him around should he prove useful. Young got rid of Rush because Rush had angered him for the 'final' time, and, despite Rush being a danger, his knowledge of Ancient technology still outstrips everyone else's on the ship. Had Young exposed Rush, put Eli in charge of the scientists, put Greer as Rush's permanent escort and confined Rush to quarters except for sciency stuff, that would be acceptable... not leaving him to die.

Yup. I agree. Young, like Wray bases his judgments on personal biases. Just like Wray he's is tactless and ill-suited for the job.

Because he has the guns.

That's not why he's in command. If he wanted to use force with guns, he'd never have been investigated, he'd never have given his command over to Wray. He's in charge again because Wray felt guilty for the insinuations, and because she realized she couldn't handle it. I don't like Young, and I think he's a loose cannon, but he's not all bad. He needs to see a therapist as much as Spencer did, actually he may need one more than Spencer did.

It is my contention that Col. Young gave Dr. Rush a final chance

Why does Young have the right to take Rush to court and play Jury? In fact, considering Rush attempted to remove him from command, an actual leader would have taken back his/her command, told Wray the situation, and would have had Wray figure out what to do with Rush. An actual leader would have recognized his/her own biases. YOUNG, RUSH AND WRAY have both shown that they make "executive" decision based on their own personal, selfish desires. Which is why another party (like Chloe who I don't like at all) needs to be in charge.

First of all. Col. Telford deserved a beating for messing with his wife.

Having dinner with a woman, giving her company when her husband is gone, and she can't discuss him with her friends for security issues, does NOT mean he was messing with his wife.

One of the reasons that he is a bad leader. If someone challenges your authority - you do not get to put them down like a lame horse.

EXACTLY you take them to court, have an unbiased individual investigate, even under Martial Law in the US, due process exists.

Confine him to his quarters, use his services only when absolutely necessary. Offing him and lying about it is unacceptable. Well, to ME, anyhow.

Me too. At least off him and be honest about it. Even a half truth like, "Rush admitted that he planted the gun, we got into a scuffle, we ran out of time, ran to the gate but Rush didn't make it" would have been much more understandable.

[Deevil]

Yes you do. Otherwise, you won't be a leader any more.

And he doesn't deserve to be leader anymore. Stranding someone on a planet without supplies it tantamount to murder.

A murderer doesn't deserve to lead, as he is not the judge, jury and executioner. It just shows how much closer he is coming to enacting martial law... and that is unacceptable.

[nx01a]

RIGHT! I do too. In fact, I think Chloe should be appointed leader, and Young, Wray and Rush should be "advisers." I may actually find her interesting, as she attempts to navigate among them, and it would be interesting to see how strong willed Chloe is, and whether she'd be able to escape the manipulations of the three of them. Young, Wray and Rush all have their personal biases, and their weaknesses, all three of them need to somehow be balanced.

That was MY idea! Ok, you can use it but it's copyrighted and I want my residuals.
Greer's anger issues pale in comparison to Young's.
I like your 'half truth' option. It sums up the basics without going into specifics: a scuffle, a dash to the gate, Rush didn't make it.

[natyanayaki]

That was MY idea! Ok, you can use it but it's copyrighted and I want my residuals.
Greer's anger issues pale in comparison to Young's.
I like your 'half truth' option. It sums up the basics without going into specifics: a scuffle, a dash to the gate, Rush didn't make it.

I think we should share the idea, I've been saying that for a few days in various different threads...so there...hmph :-D hehe...

[nx01a]

Fine. Evensies.

I really was impressed by Chloe this episode... and I was reminded why I dislike Wray. Seeing her with her gf was so touching and I warmed to her. It's so odd and hypocritical for someone who obviously gets flack about her lesbian relationship [esp. from her parents] to turn around and be so blindly against someone [Greer mostly, but also Young this episode]. Her complete inability to judge human resource potential is hilarious. No wonder the IOA kept passing her over for things.