'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[nx01a]

It's obvious that Young's the best person to lead the crew, but even he's got serious issues. A triumvirate [Young, Wray, Rush] overseen by Chloe would be perfect.

@Jel... I get what you said, but Young framed Rush [and a rockslide] for his own death just like Rush framed Young for Spencer's murder. If that's what he's willing to do, no wonder people are doing it to him. Rush framed him for the good of the crew to get rid of him [or so he says] and Young framed Rush for Young's own good. That really doesn't balance out. Both are wrong, but Rush is integral to the ship, sadly. Young isn't.

[jelgate]

@Jel... I get what you said, but Young framed Rush [and a rockslide] for his own death just like Rush framed Young for Spencer's murder. If that's what he's willing to do, no wonder people are doing it to him.

I don't think that incident was normal for Young. From O'Neill and various Desting personel it seems like in most cases Young was a standard SG commandar who had gained respect from other people. Rush just pushed him to far for various reasons in the 1st 10 episode

Rush framed him for the good of the crew to get rid of him [or so he says]

You actually believe that?

and Young framed Rush for Young's own good.

Pure speculation. For example based on the Rush saying "I'll never give up," to me mean he will never stop mantipulate and use people to get what he is wrong. Then suddenly what Young does is for the better of the crew

That really doesn't balance out. Both are wrong, but Rush is integra
to the ship, sadly. Young isn't.

What does Rush and Young's skill (which I think are both valuable to the Destiny) have to do on what is right or wrong?

[EllieVee]

And the sexism of this statement is underwhelming.

I, too, am not whelmed.

Pure speculation. For example based on the Rush saying "I'll never give up," to me mean he will never stop mantipulate and use people to get what he is wrong. Then suddenly what Young does is for the better of the crew

Speaking of speculation ...

@Jel... I get what you said, but Young framed Rush [and a rockslide] for his own death just like Rush framed Young for Spencer's murder. If that's what he's willing to do, no wonder people are doing it to him. Rush framed him for the good of the crew to get rid of him [or so he says] and Young framed Rush for Young's own good. That really doesn't balance out. Both are wrong, but Rush is integral to the ship, sadly. Young isn't.

Young didn't 'frame' Rush; I don't think that word in Rush's context means what you think it means. No mincing words, please. Young beat Rush unconscious and left him on the planet.

You know, a thought just occurred to me.... There was a discussion a few episodes back, 'Water' I believe, wherein Greer was ordered confined by Telford and people were saying that Greer committed mutiny by asking Scott to help him. Now, I know Rush isn't military but he IS under Young's command. I didn't agree with the thought of Greer committing mutiny, but Rush.... If this were the high seas and Rush tried something like this, he'd have been hung! Given the situation of them being stranded on a ship in the middle of space, I think the correlation has relevance.

Just a thought. (shrug!)

Rush is not under Young's command. Young was in charge of the base not the expedition.

[Maj_Cliffhanger]

I'd put it more simply - Wray is a bureaucrat. They have their place and can make excellent leaders in the right settings - but this isn't one of them.

That said, I for one understood why Young chose to come to an agreement with her. Outside of Rush, she has the most sway with the civilian component of the ship - and lets face it, there are a LOT of civilians. As much as TPTB at the SGC might want to view this is a military operation, it isn't. It may have originally been planned that way, but that's not the way it turned out. Young is fighting to keep a balance here. The only way he could keep from splitting the crew in half, was to step down. He maintained the respect of his men and Wray, who had her own suspicions on who really did it. She became the leader, but in reality.... She may have been in charge but when the decision of sending Rush to the off-world team was made, it was Young's call. Nor did he didn't give her a choice about including him. Did she really do all that bad? Hard to say, she wasn't in control that long; but she did fumble a couple of important things: ie giving Rush control over the science team without questioning Young as to why he didn't have it to begin with, and alienating the Marines (it wasn't just Greer that she removed from the off-world rotation roster!) That said, she seemed rather happy and perhaps even a little embarrassed by her own performance when she told them that 'of course' she was going to step down and let Young resume command. She could have fought that, I suspect the IOA would have wanted her too if they'd been given a choice, but she didn't. That gave her bonus points in my book.

[nx01a]

@Jel...
Young's been beating up people he dislikes all half season long. From Telford to Rush to a very deserving Spencer, he can't deal with personal issues without violence. Maybe it's being on the ship that's making him that way, but still, he's that way.

Rush said that he considered Young the wrong man to be in charge and that's why he framed him. Rush's excuse was that it was for the good of everyone, but it really was IMHO for Rush's own good so he could have unfettered access to the chair and just to have his way with the science team.
Rush's approach would have taken Young out of command but leave him present and alive, able to use his skills where necessary. Young simply doesn't like Rush and, despite Rush being manipulative, he's the smartest one on the ship... after Eli. If Young had brought Rush back and exposed him, maybe his manipulative ways would be lessened since the crew would see yet another example of his manipulation and been more weary of him. Instead, Young entirely cuts off an invaluable resource from the crew simply to satisfy his own desires.

@EllieVee...
Young claimed that Rush tripped and triggered a landslide, effectively stranding/killing himself. Young made it seem like Rush accidentally stranded himself on the planet when it really was Young who beat him unconscious and intentionally left him there to die. I call that a frame-up.

[Maj_Cliffhanger]

Rush is not under Young's command. Young was in charge of the base not the expedition.

I disagree. Young became the de-facto commander of the expedition when they came through the gate.

[nx01a]

Agreed. Hence Rush framing to get him out of command and Wray taking said command.

[EllieVee]

I disagree. Young became the de-facto commander of the expedition when they came through the gate.

Only because he had the people with the guns, which isn't a legitimate method of becoming 'in charge'.

[jelgate]

Young's been beating up people he dislikes all half season long. From Telford to Rush to a very deserving Spencer, he can't deal with personal issues without violence. Maybe it's being on the ship that's making him that way, but still, he's that way.

Since all of this is towards the end of the first part of the season I would say its more of the stress of the Destiny. I don't know if its undeserving. If a person won't listen to what you say sometimes force is nesscarry. Its always the last solution mind you.

Rush said that he considered Young the wrong man to be in charge and that's why he framed him. Rush's excuse was that it was for the good of everyone, but it really was IMHO for Rush's own good so he could have unfettered access to the chair and just to have his way with the science team.

I agree. I personally believe that Rush only cares about Rush.

Rush's approach would have taken Young out of command but leave him present and alive, able to use his skills where necessary. Young simply doesn't like Rush and, despite Rush being manipulative, he's the smartest one on the ship... after Eli.

That doesn't excuse what Rush has done and the risk he is.

If Young had brought Rush back and exposed him, maybe his manipulative ways would be lessened since the crew would see yet another example of his manipulation and been more weary of him. Instead, Young entirely cuts off an invaluable resource from the crew simply to satisfy his own desires.

I doubt it. Rush risked the lives of 80 people in Air and his manipulative ways didn't change. I still say it was more of the crew desires that Young did what he did. And yes Rush is a valuable resource but he is a dangerous resource as well. I rather work with the 90% man because at least I can trust hime

[LtColCarter]

Rush is not under Young's command. Young was in charge of the base not the expedition.

Expedition? They abandoned the base because it was beging destroyed from space. There was no planned expedition. Rush was a scientist on the base that Young was in command of. Therefore, he falls under Young's command. We see examples of in other SG series. If you draw a paycheck from the military...you do what the military says to do.

Only because he had the people with the guns, which isn't a legitimate method of becoming 'in charge'.

Young was already in charge of the base...guns or no guns. When he stepped through the gate because the base was being blown to bits...he was still in charge.

[Maj_Cliffhanger]

Only because he had the people with the guns, which isn't a legitimate method of becoming 'in charge'.

I have to disagree with this as well. Most, if not ALL of the scientists including Rush, who came through the gate would be Civilian Employees of the Air Force. They had to sign contracts agreeing to be subject to the Military Chain of Command. No, they don't salute nor can they face Court Marshal, but they are subject to discipline. The only exceptions here would be Chloe and her father. Even Eli would have been forced to sign something of this nature when they offered him 'the job.' Young's right to command is based on a LOT more than just the military personnel who support him.

[LtColCarter]

I have to disagree with this as well. Most, if not ALL of the scientists including Rush, who came through the gate would be Civilian Employees of the Air Force. They had to sign contracts agreeing to be subject to the Military Chain of Command. No, they don't salute nor can they face Court Marshal, but they are subject to discipline. The only exceptions here would be Chloe and her father. Even Eli would have been forced to sign something of this nature when they offered him 'the job.' Young's right to command is based on a LOT more than just the military personnel who support him.

My point exactly...

[nx01a]

That doesn't excuse what Rush has done and the risk he is.
I doubt it. Rush risked the lives of 80 people in Air and his manipulative ways didn't change. I still say it was more of the crew desires that Young did what he did. And yes Rush is a valuable resource but he is a dangerous resource as well. I rather work with the 90% man because at least I can trust hime

I'm not saying that what Rush did was right, definitely not! But his way neutered an enemy [Young] while keeping him around should he prove useful. Young got rid of Rush because Rush had angered him for the 'final' time, and, despite Rush being a danger, his knowledge of Ancient technology still outstrips everyone else's on the ship. Had Young exposed Rush, put Eli in charge of the scientists, put Greer as Rush's permanent escort and confined Rush to quarters except for sciency stuff, that would be acceptable... not leaving him to die.

[EllieVee]

Expedition? They abandoned the base because it was beging destroyed from space. There was no planned expedition. Rush was a scientist on the base that Young was in command of. Therefore, he falls under Young's command. We see examples of in other SG series. If you draw a paycheck from the military...you do what the military says to do.

Um, no, you don't. Unless you're living in a military dictatorship. Do you?

And gee, I seem to recall talk of a planned expedition. In fact, some of your fellow Rush haters have argued about supplies being in the gateroom for it.

Young was already in charge of the base...guns or no guns. When he stepped through the gate because the base was being blown to bits...he was still in charge.

Because he has the guns.

[Eternal Density]

Since Rush is actually Captain Jack Sparrow, technically Young's the one who mutinied and marooned him. And he didn't even leave him a pistol