'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

There is no point.
Rush's reasoning are completely and utterly unexplored.

In fact as I've claimed most or all of the characters are unexplored. He's one of those characters that has been given the most cursory of explanations and background. Among the poorly developed characters are Young: who we don't know the reasons of the major disconnect with him and his wife, or its relevance in the 10 stories so far. ; Chloe, whose father dies but has seemingly gotten over it enough to feel the need to club with friends on Earth instead of doing something truely meaningful; Eli, who is an MIT student and whose mom has HIV, Johansen, who's not supposed to be there, and Greer who seems deep but doesn't have much to say.

In the slathering boredom of 7 out of 10 we only truly get the work up on Scott.
I foolishly thought they would start working through all the characters in some similar but varied and creative way.
With Scott hey actually tell a story...a true exposition on perhaps why he is the way he is or what he's gone through. Then we never go back to it. It's as though the writers are attempting not to blow some monumental secret with the rest of the characters.

Over all from Air to Justice the stories have meandered across the characters, addressing the most irrelevant individuals and ignoring the main characters who don't seem to want to interact with one another. It's like the camera on SGU doesn't have an attention span. Why was Scott's pants on the ground back ground important? We never go back to it. It never becomes plot relevant in 10 episodes. Where the dialogue should be lengthened it's short. Could we not have focused on the man who committed suicide instead of just using as a tool for the plot? Can we not spend some time with a character in the midst of plot relevant situation and get to know them?

There are dozens of workable tricks for doing this, flash backs, narrative, third person relating, misdirecting stories, incomplete retelling (Naruto does this a bunch) and premonitions. There are so many artful ways to accomplish this, yet I get from Justice that there is no true direction yet. There is no person they wish to tell a story about in 10 episodes for this character based drama.

Ohh, ohh I know this one. The reason why not all the characters are fully explored is because its 10 episodes into the series. 10 episodes into sg1, we knew very little about the characters except for Jack, no knowledge of Carter and the relationship with her father, her brother, how her mum died, we didn’t know about Jackson’s parents, his academic past, Teal’c’s past and family hadn’t been revealed yet, we didn’t know anything about O’Neills past missions in special forces, Hammonds granddaughters, the list goes on. Some of these characters were still getting background information revealed about them at the end of the series, we don’t find out what happens to Teal’cs mother until Talion, that’s 3 episodes before the end of the series. Expecting at this stage to know everything to know about the characters in SGU is foolish, instead what we have are threads for future storylines, Greer’s history with Telford, Young’s infidelity, Rush’s wife. I don’t see you complaining on the SGA board about how we knew nothing about Sheppard’s family till season 4 so why here? Character building and character information have to come naturally, it has to fit the storyline and feel right, people don’t just immediately blab their personnel information on meeting someone.

These characters are being developed better and more deeply than previous stargate characters, we’ve rapidly learnt much about them in 10 episodes but you seem to labour under the assumption that because everything is not immediately handed to you on a plate about these characters we’ll never learn anymore about them. Saquist allow me to be blunt, because if it’s self contained tv, where at the very end of the episode everything gets wrapped up and every characters motivations are instantly recognizable, that you’re looking for, you aren’t going to like SGU. SGU is clearly influenced by shows like the Wire and Deadwood (hell thematically the show is closer to Deadwood in space than BSG). These shows developed stories over time, characters and their motivations are revealed over time, and episodes are always part of the greater story and not self contained.

[carmencatalina]

I've personally always preferred pie to cake . . .

I wonder how much time will have elapsed between the end of "Justice" and the beginning of "Space" (fictional time, I know how much real time has elapsed, 4 freakin' months, that's how much time).

[jelgate]

I've personally always preferred pie to cake . . .

I wonder how much time will have elapsed between the end of "Justice" and the beginning of "Space" (fictional time, I know how much real time has elapsed, 4 freakin' months, that's how much time).

Days if that.

[EllieVee]

There is no point.
Rush's reasoning are completely and utterly unexplored.

Yes, and?

In fact as I've claimed most or all of the characters are unexplored. He's one of those characters that has been given the most cursory of explanations and background. Among the poorly developed characters are Young: who we don't know the reasons of the major disconnect with him and his wife, or its relevance in the 10 stories so far. ; Chloe, whose father dies but has seemingly gotten over it enough to feel the need to club with friends on Earth instead of doing something truely meaningful; Eli, who is an MIT student and whose mom has HIV, Johansen, who's not supposed to be there, and Greer who seems deep but doesn't have much to say.

In the slathering boredom of 7 out of 10 we only truly get the work up on Scott.
I foolishly thought they would start working through all the characters in some similar but varied and creative way.
With Scott hey actually tell a story...a true exposition on perhaps why he is the way he is or what he's gone through. Then we never go back to it. It's as though the writers are attempting not to blow some monumental secret with the rest of the characters.

Over all from Air to Justice the stories have meandered across the characters, addressing the most irrelevant individuals and ignoring the main characters who don't seem to want to interact with one another. It's like the camera on SGU doesn't have an attention span. Why was Scott's pants on the ground back ground important? We never go back to it. It never becomes plot relevant in 10 episodes. Where the dialogue should be lengthened it's short. Could we not have focused on the man who committed suicide instead of just using as a tool for the plot? Can we not spend some time with a character in the midst of plot relevant situation and get to know them?

There are dozens of workable tricks for doing this, flash backs, narrative, third person relating, misdirecting stories, incomplete retelling (Naruto does this a bunch) and premonitions. There are so many artful ways to accomplish this, yet I get from Justice that there is no true direction yet. There is no person they wish to tell a story about in 10 episodes for this character based drama.

So, basically you want to know everything all in one episode with nothing left to explore about any character.

[Deevil]

Yes, and?

Which is a good thing. Mystery never hurt anyone - and anyway... how many of your workmates can claim to 'know' you after a couple of months?

So, basically you want to know everything all in one episode with nothing left to explore about any character.

*shudder* I fear excessive exposition. I actually thought that in order to develop characters that where TPTB would go, but I have been pleasantly surprised that that isn't the case.

I'm all for letting the characters develop as the stories develop... and that's what's been happening. It's a little slow going for some of them, but characters like Rush wouldn't be as interesting if we knew his motivations straight up.

[EllieVee]

Which is a good thing. Mystery never hurt anyone - and anyway... how many of your workmates can claim to 'know' you after a couple of months?

*shudder* I fear excessive exposition. I actually thought that in order to develop characters that where TPTB would go, but I have been pleasantly surprised that that isn't the case.

I'm all for letting the characters develop as the stories develop... and that's what's been happening. It's a little slow going for some of them, but characters like Rush wouldn't be as interesting if we knew his motivations straight up.

I don't have a problem with exposition as long as it's written by Terrence Rattigan and directed by David Mamet. Everyone else should just leave it the hell alone.

[blackluster]

Days if that.

Was some info leaked about this? I was thinking it might be interesting if a few weeks had past. Then we could see the crew stewing without Rush and it would also let us know if they really needed him or not.

[Stewart5]

I agree with Blackluster. That way we could see if Rush's absence has had a positive, negative or indifferent affect on the ship and crew

[Saquist]

Its a metaphor saying in that you can't flip flop around from two different decisions/stances/etc

You have to chose something.

You mean that one can not be general in one moment and more specific in another moment?
One must be accurate at all times?

[Saquist]

Ohh, ohh I know this one. The reason why not all the characters are fully explored is because its 10 episodes into the series.

If you have to modify the question to answer said question then you've only answered your own question. It's ten episodes in we're not learning anything significant to the plot of any character.

10 episodes into sg1, we knew very little about the characters except for Jack, no knowledge of Carter and the relationship with her father, her brother, how her mum died, we didn’t know about Jackson’s parents, his academic past, Teal’c’s past

I'm sorry to interrupt here but...SG-1 and SGA was action and adventure. It was not so singularly dependent character drama.

Saquist allow me to be blunt, because if it’s self contained tv, where at the very end of the episode everything gets wrapped up and every characters motivations are instantly recognizable, that you’re looking for, you aren’t going to like SGU. SGU is clearly influenced by shows like the Wire and Deadwood (hell thematically the show is closer to Deadwood in space than BSG). These shows developed stories over time, characters and their motivations are revealed over time, and episodes are always part of the greater story and not self contained.

I don't think I ever went into SGU with that particular expectation.
I expected it like every story I've ever read to tell a story.
I expected it to get to a point I never expected it to have self contained stories.

Interesting correlation though...

BSG and Deadwood were short-lived series... 3-4 seasons.
So SGU may fair like wise?

Yes, and?

Combined with the lack of movement in the Series Plot makes for bad stories.

So, basically you want to know everything all in one episode with nothing left to explore about any character.

How does your reasoning bring to this odd interpretation?

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

If you have to modify the question to answer said question then you've only answered your own question. It's ten episodes in we're not learning anything significant to the plot of any character.

I'm sorry to interrupt here but...SG-1 and SGA was action and adventure. It was not so singularly dependent character drama.

I don't think I ever went into SGU with that particular expectation.
I expected it like every story I've ever read to tell a story.
I expected it to get to a point I never expected it to have self contained stories.

Interesting correlation though...

BSG and Deadwood were short-lived series... 3-4 seasons.
So SGU may fair like wise?

We’re not learning anything significant about the characters? We’ve learnt about Greer and his father issues, his anger problems but at heart his a loyal marine. We’ve learnt about Eli, his problems with his mother, how his Dad left, we’ve learnt about Young’s affair, about his frayed relationship with his wife, we’ve learnt about Wray’s partner and the deep love they have for each other, how this is what drives her to want to return home, we’ve learnt about Chloe, how she relied on her Dad and how she has rejected her rich kid friends of the past. We’ve learnt that Rush is extremely manipulative and his motives are unclear. In short then we know a ton about the characters after 10 episodes.

As for comparisons to Deadwood, it in 3 seasons managed to create 36 episodes of incredible, critically acclaimed tv which has been better than anything than anything that Stargate has ever produced in 15 years of being on the air. As for the length of the show, well Deadwood was an HBO show, they tend to be more expensive and far riskier than other shows. The most violent and profane show ever to air on TV isn’t exactly attractive to every audience demographic. And length doesn’t really have much to do with quality, Firefly had 14 episodes, its one of the most loved scifi series out there. The Wire had only 5 seasons totalling 60 episodes, that didn’t stop it becoming the most critically acclaimed show of all time. Frankly if SGU does only manage to go for 3 seasons and is even half the quality of a show like Deadwood, then I’d say than the crew of SGU would have a lot to be proud of.

[Stewart5]

All very true. If anything, I think that the series is going a little too quickly with the amount of characterisation. Just too much of it crammed in ten episodes, at the cost of many of the other possible avenues, imo. Keep it in, by all means. But doin't foist it on us in buckets!
That's why Justice was such a good episode. The right amount of drama, tension and intrigue without (as yet) needless character subplot.

[carmencatalina]

BSG and Deadwood were short-lived series... 3-4 seasons.
So SGU may fair like wise?

Oh, if SGU produced three seasons anywhere near as fine as Deadwood, I would be beyond happy. Quality television, that.

[Saquist]

We’re not learning anything significant about the characters? We’ve learnt about Greer and his father issues, his anger problems but at heart his a loyal marine. We’ve learnt about Eli, his problems with his mother, how his Dad left, we’ve learnt about Young’s affair, about his frayed relationship with his wife, we’ve learnt about Wray’s partner and the deep love they have for each other, how this is what drives her to want to return home, we’ve learnt about Chloe, how she relied on her Dad and how she has rejected her rich kid friends of the past. We’ve learnt that Rush is extremely manipulative and his motives are unclear. In short then we know a ton about the characters after 10 episodes.

So to you significant means...anything?
That's very... interesting.
When I tend to thing of significant I think "important" , "relevant" maybe even "coherent".

As for comparisons to Deadwood, it in 3 seasons managed to create 36 episodes of incredible, critically acclaimed tv which has been better than anything than anything that Stargate has ever produced in 15 years of being on the air. As for the length of the show, well Deadwood was an HBO show, they tend to be more expensive and far riskier than other shows. The most violent and profane show ever to air on TV isn’t exactly attractive to every audience demographic. And length doesn’t really have much to do with quality, Firefly had 14 episodes, its one of the most loved scifi series out there. The Wire had only 5 seasons totalling 60 episodes, that didn’t stop it becoming the most critically acclaimed show of all time. Frankly if SGU does only manage to go for 3 seasons and is even half the quality of a show like Deadwood, then I’d say than the crew of SGU would have a lot to be proud of.

Hmmm. I wouldn't know.
I've never heard or seen Deadwood and I'm rather selective about what I call entertainment.
I've also have never seen Firefly or Wire. I've noticed cable shows tend to be on the morally shallow gradient so I prefer to read and draw. More productive, more to show for time spent.

Oh, if SGU produced three seasons anywhere near as fine as Deadwood, I would be beyond happy. Quality television, that.

Seven years it is then...
I could be wrong but I don't think you're going to get that from this series.

[LtColCarter]

As for comparisons to Deadwood, it in 3 seasons managed to create 36 episodes of incredible, critically acclaimed tv which has been better than anything than anything that Stargate has ever produced in 15 years of being on the air.

Couldn't have been that incredible and critically acclaimed if people have never heard of it, myself included. For example, I don't watch 24 (no reason...just never got into it)...but I've heard a lot about it and how well it does. I also think that Stargate has produced some quality TV or it wouldn't have been on the air for 15+ years.