'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[Saquist]

How true!

Every characters behaviour is up to interpretation - I don't know why you would think otherwise. If it wasn't, if everything to be known about the character was expressly stated it'd be boring, pointless and there would be no debate. Thus, there would be no forum.

Valid would mean that the reality of the explosion translating through the wormhole was had come true.
That didn't happen.

I can't even recall that last time that happen with an explosion that big.
We know a shaped charge jumps the wormhole.
We know solar flares jump wormholes

Surges of this magnitude don't translate through wormholes.
Even if the explosion had begun to translat there is no way that a surge of that magnitude would have continued to travel through the event horizon and destroy Earth.

This was a power surge that was so fast that it would have affected the wormhole and the entire exposed event horizon.
Everything stargate has told us says that gates handle large power-surges poorly.

Rush might be wanting to 'bask in the glory' but he possibly also saved their lives. He had a valid reason for dialling the ninth chevron outside of your 'basking in the glory' (though there doesn't seem to be much glory for him to bask in given they're unlikely to get home).

The anti-Rush crowd's problem is that they can't see the wood for the trees.

[blackluster]

On the water planet episode, Young directly confronts Rush and says it is his fault that their struggling for their lives and the disappearing water supply. Rush blows him off.

I think at that stage of the story I would also have blown Young off. It's one thing to blame Rush for taking the risk with people's lives, but it's another thing to blame him for having the explicit intention of stranding them on a derelict ship that they would have to fight to survive on. The accusation at that stage is also as if Rush is doing absolutely nothing to remedy the situation, like people would rather continue to harp on the issue until Rush commits suicide and they can continue to wallow in their misery. It's nonsensical and I think someone who has to hear the same sing-song over and over again will become deaf to it quite quickly.

Sure they may reveal he was working under orders and we'll see his entire attitude change in some spectacular twist at the end of the season...

This seems unlikely to me.

The moment Rush stranded them on Destiny for no reason not knowing what was on the other side of that gate, once they add the clause "we can't dial any where else in time" are some thing to that it's writing by force. Not just a contrivance.

I'm not sure how this keeps cropping up. I mean even if one were on the Rush bashing side of the discussion, one might think Rush's reason's were selfish/evil or something. Saying for "no reason" somehow implies that Rush does things on a whim with no forethought or consideration even purely self serving. I really thought that what we knew of Rush so far would prove that he has reasons for the things he does, even if not all of us like them.

... a suicide that definitely wasn't in the characters make-up.

How so?

I can't even recall that last time that happen with an explosion that big.
We know a shaped charge jumps the wormhole.
We know solar flares jump wormholes

Surges of this magnitude don't translate through wormholes.
Even if the explosion had begun to translat there is no way that a surge of that magnitude would have continued to travel through the event horizon and destroy Earth.

I think we went over this at length a few pages ago but I'll try and summarize:

I believe the problem in this instance was how the gate was being powered by the planet (for which there is no precedent). Unlike the shaped charge or the solar flare, what we had on Icarus was not a transient power spike, but instead a rapidly rising curve of energy that could not be shut off. There is one incident which this is somewhat similar to, and that is the blackhole incident. In that case, the expanding blackhole was feeding the gate a massive amount of increasing power that was not dissipating and therefore not transient like the solar flare or shaped charge. What we see happen in that case is that because the power was so enormous and continuous, it effectively 'jammed the gate open' forcing them to use a shaped charge. (it should be noted that the charge only makes the wormhole jump, it doesn't disengage it, so technically they just made that blackhole some other planet's problem. The Icarus case then is not easily dismissed as Rush being contradicted by canon, since a gate being fed with a massive power over a relatively drawn out period could have developed into a very serious issue even before that planet exploded culminating in an overload at the destination gate. If you consider the power drawn by the gate being proportional to the distance and exceeding the required power being directly applied to the gate (not through some external means), I think Rush's decision carries a strong possibility of being correct. I have yet to see anyone confront Rush with scientific data that proves that his assessment was wrong. They are keen to point fingers but no one has backed it up yet.

[Coronach]

I'm not sure how this keeps cropping up. I mean even if one were on the Rush bashing side of the discussion, one might think Rush's reason's were selfish/evil or something. Saying for "no reason" somehow implies that Rush does things on a whim with no forethought or consideration even purely self serving. I really thought that what we knew of Rush so far would prove that he has reasons for the things he does, even if not all of us like them.

It's scary how true this is, and how much it speaks to the psychology of fandom.

[Saquist]

I think at that stage of the story I would also have blown Young off. It's one thing to blame Rush for taking the risk with people's lives, but it's another thing to blame him for having the explicit intention of stranding them on a derelict ship that they would have to fight to survive on. The accusation at that stage is also as if Rush is doing absolutely nothing to remedy the situation, like people would rather continue to harp on the issue until Rush commits suicide and they can continue to wallow in their misery. It's nonsensical and I think someone who has to hear the same sing-song over and over again will become deaf to it quite quickly.

Yet in the directors cut Colonel O'Neill is saying the exact same thing.
In fact considering the nature of his (Rush) choice and his disinclination to explain himself, It's rather expected to question not only his intentions but his sanity.

This seems unlikely to me.

And the suicide seemed as unlikely.

I'm not sure how this keeps cropping up. I mean even if one were on the Rush bashing side of the discussion, one might think Rush's reason's were selfish/evil or something. Saying for "no reason" somehow implies that Rush does things on a whim with no forethought or consideration even purely self serving. I really thought that what we knew of Rush so far would prove that he has reasons for the things he does, even if not all of us like them.

You're correct of course it was hyperbole.

How so?

Outward Aggression is not a common sign of suicide.
It's not even on the top ten list.

I think we went over this at length a few pages ago but I'll try and summarize:

I

believe the problem in this instance was how the gate was being powered by the planet (for which there is no precedent). Unlike the shaped charge or the solar flare, what we had on Icarus was not a transient power spike, but instead a rapidly rising curve of energy that could not be shut off.

I cannot agree. It was an explosion.
The threat was the explosion.
And explosion by definition is sudden and violent increase in energy in all directions and that is exactly what happens to the planet and that is exactly what Rush spoke of. I can't find justification of any "curve".

(it should be noted that the charge only makes the wormhole jump, it doesn't disengage it, so technically they just made that blackhole some other planet's problem. The Icarus case then is not easily dismissed as Rush being contradicted by canon, since a gate being fed with a massive power over a relatively drawn out period could have developed into a very serious issue even before that planet exploded culminating in an overload at the destination gate. If you consider the power drawn by the gate being proportional to the distance and exceeding the required power being directly applied to the gate (not through some external means)

I'll note it but I am not following you.
Can you break this down more simply?

, I think Rush's decision carries a strong possibility of being correct. I have yet to see anyone confront Rush with scientific data that proves that his assessment was wrong. They are keen to point fingers but no one has backed it up yet.

I wouldn't put too much significance on that.
Not only has Rush pegged the rest of them as incompetent but the writers have a tendency to leave loose ends in the story mechanics.

[blackluster]

Yet in the directors cut Colonel O'Neill is saying the exact same thing.
In fact considering the nature of his (Rush) choice and his disinclination to explain himself, It's rather expected to question not only his intentions but his sanity.

I don't put any stock in O'Neil leveling the accusation because I don't really consider him any more qualified to understand the decision than Young is. Perhaps if it were Mckay or Carter crapping Rush out I'd consider it more significant/conclusive.

Outward Aggression is not a common sign of suicide.
It's not even on the top ten list.

No, but I think Spencer's kino log in a previous episode made it highly probable. He says something to the effect of how the crew doesn't realize that they're in a big coffin and some other disparaging things. He seemed to have a fatalistic tone like they were all doomed. His medical dependency also seemed like a clear sign to me that psychologically he was not dealing with the situation and he was looking for an 'out'.

I cannot agree. It was an explosion.
The threat was the explosion.
And explosion by definition is sudden and violent increase in energy in all directions and that is exactly what happens to the planet and that is exactly what Rush spoke of. I can't find justification of any "curve".

The explosion was the problem it that it proceeded a dangerous energy buildup. The planet had not exploded yet but the core was becoming increasingly unstable. Since the gate was tied into the planets core for power, that effectively means their 'generator' is going amok in a manner where they can no longer regulate it's output. The build to the explosion is a rapidly rising curve of energy they had no control over.

I'll note it but I am not following you.
Can you break this down more simply?

It is explained more completely a few pages back. The theory basically goes: say that the energy to establish a wormhole is proportional to the distance it must go. While this is not easily observed in gate travel in the same galaxy, it is proved to travel to an adjacent galaxy requires more power. In that case zpm's are needed to boost the power to the gate. While the zpm is an extremely powerful device, it is controllable energy. Now we come to Icarus. The power requirements seem to be well beyond what zpms can do as evidenced by how tough the mission was to setup and how important the planet was to it's success. Now, let's say that you need some amount of energy to establish a wormhole within a galaxy. What would happen if, instead of powering the gate with the energy needed to establish the wormhole, you force many times the required energy into the gate, not in a transient fashion, but over an extended period? I believe we see what happens in the episode with the blackhole. This was the scenario they created for themselves on Icarus. Not only was their powersource way more than zpm energy levels, but they had effectively lost control of its output when the planet's core began to go critical. They had not only rigged the power transfer from core to gate in an unconventional manner but they had also tinkered with that gate (modifying it to only setup outgoing wormholes). I believe forcing an exponentially larger than required energy source into the departure gate created a unique situation which could very viably have created an overload in the destination gate which in the very least would have wiped out the SGC, since I can't think of an instance where the power output from an exploding stargate was anything short of catastrophic.

I wouldn't put too much significance on that.
Not only has Rush pegged the rest of them as incompetent but the writers have a tendency to leave loose ends in the story mechanics.

I don't see how that matters since Rush isn't the only recognized scientific authority in the Stargate universe (excuse the pun). Much forum discussion happens in the gaps writers leave anyway, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

[EllieVee]

Hubris aside...
On the water planet episode, Young directly confronts Rush and says it is his fault that their struggling for their lives and the disappearing water supply. Rush blows him off. Just like Rush blew him off when he was dialing in Air...."It's may be our only chance" was all the justification Rush needed. Rush isn't concerned with what anyone thinks about his decision to bring them there. And that has been the most constant in the character from day one.

Could you provide the dialogue for what I have bolded, please?

[Deevil]

Please do not misrepresent my position.
If you did not understand what was said, I'd advise you to ask questions. They are more useful than assumptions.

I understood what you said. You don't believe that Rush's position is up for all that much interpretation. I disagreed with you, gave you reasons why your position - especially considering we are on a discussion forum - makes no sense.

There will always be a need for interpretation. Unfortunately your answer just proves that you have little understanding or simply forgot of a very important writing practice; subtext. This is something that is entirely interpretive and is used to create character and their interactions. The only way we cannot interpret a character to a great extent (which is your contention) is if we get a lot of exposition. First, that is bad writing. Second, you cannot even pretend that that is the case with Rush.

The excessive discussions on his motivations and character is proof of this.

In the end we don't know why Rush dialed the 9th Chevron. We don't know, even by basic knowledge of Stargate mechanics (which change as the need arises) that he lied about it being dangerous to dial a gate in the Milky Way. Equally, we do not know that he was telling the truth there. That's what makes him a fascinating character - it's what makes him interesting to watch and the topic of much discussion.

Until we know either way I am going to rally against the notion that Rush is just a self-serving individual because that's not the character I have seen...

[EllieVee]

Dee, I'm getting this deja vu all over again thing happening.

[aretood2]

Dee, I'm getting this deja vu all over again thing happening.

Lets talk about TJ...what did she do? I don't even remember the episode anymore...

[Deevil]

Dee, I'm getting this deja vu all over again thing happening.

I know - I'm officially done with that convo (why did I enter it again). Anyways - like artood said. What about TJ? Did anyone find it interesting that she - the person who had an affair with Young - wasn't really defending him all that well.

Actually just thought of something else interesting. When she did the psych evals, Young made sure she had them scheduled while he wasn't on the ship... hmmm...

[aretood2]

I know - I'm officially done with that convo (why did I enter it again). Anyways - like artood said. What about TJ? Did anyone find it interesting that she - the person who had an affair with Young - wasn't really defending him all that well.

Actually just thought of something else interesting. When she did the psych evals, Young made sure she had them scheduled while he wasn't on the ship... hmmm...

Obviously she didn't think to highly of him at that moment. She was able to keep a cool head though.

[jelgate]

I know - I'm officially done with that convo (why did I enter it again). Anyways - like artood said. What about TJ? Did anyone find it interesting that she - the person who had an affair with Young - wasn't really defending him all that well.

Actually just thought of something else interesting. When she did the psych evals, Young made sure she had them scheduled while he wasn't on the ship... hmmm...

Does the term conflict of interest mean anything to you?

[Deevil]

Obviously she didn't think to highly of him at that moment. She was able to keep a cool head though.

I agree with you. What I found interesting by the interaction was that TJ, who has known Young the longest and probably best, didn't really think it was beyond his abilities to kill someone in seemingly cold blood. What does that mean exactly, I dunno, but I just remembered it!

[aretood2]

I agree with you. What I found interesting by the interaction was that TJ, who has known Young the longest and probably best, didn't really think it was beyond his abilities to kill someone in seemingly cold blood. What does that mean exactly, I dunno, but I just remembered it!

Well if you can cheat on someone....

[EllieVee]

Lets talk about TJ...what did she do? I don't even remember the episode anymore...

Aside from treating Franklin, I think she mostly stood around looking tragic in the scenes she was in. That's not meant meanly. Alaina Huffman does tragic very well.

I know - I'm officially done with that convo (why did I enter it again). Anyways - like artood said. What about TJ? Did anyone find it interesting that she - the person who had an affair with Young - wasn't really defending him all that well.

Actually just thought of something else interesting. When she did the psych evals, Young made sure she had them scheduled while he wasn't on the ship... hmmm...

Oh, good point. Perhaps he didn't mean for her to give him a psych eval.

I agree with you. What I found interesting by the interaction was that TJ, who has known Young the longest and probably best, didn't really think it was beyond his abilities to kill someone in seemingly cold blood. What does that mean exactly, I dunno, but I just remembered it!

I don't remember her reaction at all to that.