'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[Stewart5]

When I say guns blazing, am refering to the multiple cocking of bolts.

But just cause its safe on Earth doesnt mean it would be out there. I refer you to Time.

[aretood2]

When I say guns blazing, am refering to the multiple cocking of bolts.

But just cause its safe on Earth doesnt mean it would be out there. I refer you to Time.

Time didn't have any poison, just bad tasting fruit.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

When I say guns blazing, am refering to the multiple cocking of bolts.

Actually that sound was simply them reassembling their weapons.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Watch the eps again, that frame job wasn't the first strike. Rush has been warning Young about his leadership numerous times throughout the series so far. Young's nonsensical resistance to research on the chair was the straw that broke the camel's back. Rush was telling Young off about his leadership in Darkenss (crew wasting power), in Light (senseless conditional rewards), in Water (risking everyone's life for one person), in Earth (half baked rescue plans) and in Life (misusing an attempt to boost crew morale). That frame job was by no means out of nowhere. Rush has tried numerous times to get through to Young with words, hints and even taking matters into his own hands (Earth), but Young has stubbornly refused every warning and has instead embarked on a campaign of spying on Rush and ostracizing him.

The only way there would have been no trust going forward would be for them to completely ignore why Rush did what he did. I suppose that wouldn't be hard for Greer and co. since they seem more interested in protecting their own that what is actually the right thing to do. They would have to be rather bigoted as well to completely ignore all the times Rush has endeavored to save their lives. Trying to persecute Rush on the grounds that he cannot be trusted ever again only amounts to hate mongering, which is completely out of place in a situation that requires rational thought. Rush has saved them a number of times, even in cases where he has had to act unilaterally without telling them much. This is a plain and simple fact, end of story. Trust in their case must be born out of understanding. If any of them bothered to try and understand Rush's motivations they would realize exactly what they can trust him to do in any critical situation. Shutting your eyes to someone's thought processes and then choosing to hate and mistrust them when they don't do what you expect is supremely nonsensical.

No, in Time, Rush was reasoning with Volker which were likely edible plants. They had already established a process of elimination as well for the different foods on offer. In the ep. with the space potato the scientists had already determined that it was safe to eat. Also, as Garrowan has again correctly pointed out, Earth survival training does not give you some overwhelming expertise in determining what is safe to eat. A check list on some unknown plant is invariably based on certain constants in a planet's climate and eco-system. All of that goes out the window in an alien ecology, since what one considers consequential in an earth environment can have zero application in an alien. At the end of the day, the scientists would still be the better choice in analyzing food, since they would have a much broader understanding of how environmental conditions and prevailing chemical compounds would affect plant life.

No matter how you dress this up Rush has done something wrong. It does not matter that he’s had conflict with Young in the past, you do not do what Rush did and your arguments in his defence would not fly in a court, military or otherwise. Besides some of the dubious nature of your claims (what was Young supposed to do in Earth, he was kept out of the loop stuck on Earth. Also how is Young’s actions with the chair idiotic, Rush wasn’t willing to sit in the chair, he knew it was dangerous and Young was only interested in exploring all possible options before risking someone’s life in the chair ) conflict with your commanding officer does not mean you have a right to take matters into your own hands. If Rush had concerns then he should have taken them to O’Neill who would have made a decision, that is how you deal with concerns with a CO.

As for trust issues with the military, it seems clear not only that Rush doesn’t understand the military psyche, but that you also haven’t got the foggiest clue when it comes to the military. We do not trust people who screw us over. The military promotes honesty from its servicemen and women, it tries and promotes trust, what Rush did, regardless of his motives does not promote trust. In the military trust is earned, and Young has loyalty from his men and women because as their CO he has shown in the past that they can rely on him. Rush on the other hand has just used underhanded tactics, withheld vital information and downright lied. That doesn’t make promote loyalty or show that he's reliable. If Rush doesn’t agree with someone else, will he have them framed for some crime as well, because it’s clear that’s the way Rush does things. I don’t see in any of the episodes the part where Rush has a frank conversation with Young over his issues with him, he only really gets round to mentioning them on the planet after he’d framed Young.

Frankly at this point I’m fed up with this conversation with you, it’s like banging my head against a wall. You might live in some happy dream world where Rush is God’s gift to humanity but I don’t. I see him as a self centred, sociopathic, manipulative person, who marooned them on the Destiny for his own personnel reasons, reasons that he doesn’t even have the decency to tell the rest of the ship about. You want to go carrying on thinking that the sun shines out of Rush’s arse and he can do no wrong, fine, but don’t go whinging when some of us think Rush is a deeply unpleasant individual.

P.S And before you say anything I'm an equal opportunities offender as well. I think Young is also off his rocker.

[Deevil]

Yes, ma'am eye-rolling aside, of course.

Just cause I can

Proof is a very, very difficult requirement. Motive is almost impossible to "prove"
No Law up standing court in the world can prove a motive. Scientifically it's far from pragmatic. Really it can only be proven by confession. I can't prove Rushes motives were reckless. I can only use deductive reason from the exhibited behavior.

Your point is? I repeat again, there is not enough evidence to prosecute Rush with any certainty, everything you are mentioning is beyond circumstancial and really based solely in personal interpretation. I'm not willing to jump on the bandwagon you are.

What can be said it Rush's defense....
I think very little.

I think even less of what's being said in trying to prove him guilty of anything.

Prosecution has 3 counts of endangerment.
There is no question whether he was present at the scene of each incident.
He did dial the Destiny gate
He was caught on video removing the weapon from the soldier's quarters
He did LIE as too the presence of an Icarus type planet.

And frankly, the only thing he has done wrong is try and frame Young - and yet we haven't seen video footage of this so there is a shadow of a doubt that something is a little skewy with that.

BTW the Icarus type planet lie didn't endanger anyone.

What would the witnesses say of his Character?

I don't care. Greer has a bee in his bonnet over him. Chloe blames him for her fathers death and Eli is upset that the man is human. These witnesses aren't the best witnesses because they have an axe to grind.

This is about justice....is it not?
Where is the reasonable doubt for Rush's innocence?

Until you or anyone else can prove that Rush sent them to Destiny because of is own personal desires and not because of the reason he gave Young, you cannot honestly prosecute him for anything other then trying the set up Young... and then we'd ge to see the footage to see exactly what happened.

Yes, sir.
Definition:sociopathic - Having the characteristics of a sociopath; Unconcerned about the adverse consequences for others of one's actions

The a fore mentioned: Stranding on Destiny
The a-fore mentioned: Framing for murder

With All-Due-Respect, sir.
You may not agree with the EVIDENCE...that it proves that he is a sociopath. But the evidence does support the theory.

So, this also proves that Young is a sociopath... interesting. Also proves that Greer is. Wow, there's a lot of sociopaths on board.

[GateGipsy]

We haven't seen video footage yet, but Eli has and so has Young. However, it is interesting that although Eli is presented to us in the episode as if he's seen the same footage as Young, there's no actual confirmation of this. So, it all comes down to Young's reliability as the narrator.

I am frankly loving this! I love it when a show makes me think. Right now I just don't know how much I can trust or who I can trust. I think that Eli and TJ are the only two I totally trust, and I am not sure exactly why.

There's still so much that has been hinted at, but that we don't really know yet. Why exactly did Telford and Greer clash? What is really behind Telford's problems with Young?

For all we know, Young has already had a complete breakdown. How many great battles have had military leaders who were totally cuckoo, but either had very good second officers or a great deal of luck, or simply were still able to pull it together for the decisive military bit?

It is quite possible that Young is completely hallicinating all the time, but knows he is so is simply trying ignore the hallucinations. As we've already seen, he has had at least one hallucination that was so real it could have been real life (to him). How do we know that's not what life is like for him all the time?

And then there's Rush. He isn't a sociopath, he just likes yanking people's chains, playing mind games. It is part of what makes him feel like he's so much more cleverer than everyone else. He simply cannot stand it when someone isn't as 'smart' as him. So therefore Eli is the only person he can tolerate. He thought he could push Young as much as he wanted, because Young needed him. But he was terribly wrong! He was relying on Young always doing the 'right' thing and following correct, civilised procedure.

But at some point Young has realised that frankly, procedure is out the window. I don't think that he did what he did because he was mad. But because he'd decided that simply having Rush around, even locked up, was going to result in more mind games etc, and he'd just had enough. Survival was hard enough as it was without Rush adding to it.

of course I could be wrong, and Young could be bonkers

[Saquist]

Just cause I can

Indeed.

Your point is? I repeat again, there is not enough evidence to prosecute Rush with any certainty, everything you are mentioning is beyond circumstancial and really based solely in personal interpretation. I'm not willing to jump on the bandwagon you are.

I contradict you.
That would be for a jury to decide.

Negative, on "everything you are mentioning is beyond circustancial" assuming beyond, improperly used here in replacement of "extremely"....

1- Rush risking the lives of the crew on the 9th chevron is not circumstantial evidence of his guilt of recklessness. He admits he is dialing the 9th chevron because it is there only chance to do so and thereby demoting the crews safety in the crisis.

2- Rush did from Young. It is not circumstantial evidence. Rush had opportunity, motive, and was captured on video tape "in the act". With held crucial evidence in a criminal investigation.

There is no interpretation
There is no bandwagon
These are facts and nothing but the facts. Facts don't lie but they can lead us to the wrong conclusions in the face of assumptions based on the facts.

I think even less of what's being said in trying to prove him guilty of anything.

That is a personal interpretation and not a particularly relevant one.
The characters have seen fit to try Young for "perceived" crimes.
All that is needed is a preponderance of evidence which we have.

BTW the Icarus type planet lie didn't endanger anyone.

Goes to character.
Rushes objectives have never been charitable.

I don't care. Greer has a bee in his bonnet over him. Chloe blames him for her fathers death and Eli is upset that the man is human. These witnesses aren't the best witnesses because they have an axe to grind.

But they are witnesses.
His character is in question.
Are they biased? Of course.
The problem here is that everyone on the ship has "an axe to grind".
Our choices are limited because of his choices.

Until you or anyone else can prove that Rush sent them to Destiny because of is own personal desires and not because of the reason he gave Young, you cannot honestly prosecute him for anything other then trying the set up Young...

One crime is more than enough.

So, this also proves that Young is a sociopath... interesting. Also proves that Greer is. Wow, there's a lot of sociopaths on board.

No Deevil.
For you this would mean "prove."
For me this means "support."

Besides the other characters' typically sympathetic if not contradictory behavior rules them out. Sociopaths tend to be fairly consistent in their inability to relate the emotions of others. Rush is the only individual that has this lacking.

[blackluster]

No matter how you dress this up Rush has done something wrong. It does not matter that he’s had conflict with Young in the past, you do not do what Rush did and your arguments in his defence would not fly in a court, military or otherwise. Besides some of the dubious nature of your claims (what was Young supposed to do in Earth, he was kept out of the loop stuck on Earth. Also how is Young’s actions with the chair idiotic, Rush wasn’t willing to sit in the chair, he knew it was dangerous and Young was only interested in exploring all possible options before risking someone’s life in the chair ) conflict with your commanding officer does not mean you have a right to take matters into your own hands. If Rush had concerns then he should have taken them to O’Neill who would have made a decision, that is how you deal with concerns with a CO.

Young took himself out of the loop when he started his campaign against Telford. He could easily have made himself part of what was happening, but I think he made it pretty clear to Rush and everyone else that his attention was elsewhere. Like I said, Rush has been letting Young know about his leadership for quite sometime now. Young has shown no interest in addressing Rush's concerns and so we end up with the situation in Justice. I also doubt telling O'Neil anything would have mattered since I don't consider Jack's track record in cooperating with civilians to be stellar. I strongly believe that he would have backed Young over Rush no matter what, even leading to everyone's deaths, since as experienced as Jack is, fundamentally, he is not on the Destiny. The times when Rush took matters into his own hands on the Destiny happens to be when he has saved everyone's lives. In relation to the chair, it is clear that Young had diverted science personnel, since it took Wray in command to actually allow Rush to make the study of the chair their top priority. This tells me that despite Rush telling Young his honest opinion that the chair was the fastest way to determine a path home, Young had continued to divert resources which doesn't really speak to the supposed seriousness behind getting home.

As for trust issues with the military, it seems clear not only that Rush doesn’t understand the military psyche, but that you also haven’t got the foggiest clue when it comes to the military. We do not trust people who screw us over. The military promotes honesty from its servicemen and women, it tries and promotes trust, what Rush did, regardless of his motives does not promote trust. In the military trust is earned, and Young has loyalty from his men and women because as their CO he has shown in the past that they can rely on him. Rush on the other hand has just used underhanded tactics, withheld vital information and downright lied. That doesn’t make promote loyalty or show that he's reliable. If Rush doesn’t agree with someone else, will he have them framed for some crime as well, because it’s clear that’s the way Rush does things. I don’t see in any of the episodes the part where Rush has a frank conversation with Young over his issues with him, he only really gets round to mentioning them on the planet after he’d framed Young.

Rush doesn't need people's loyalty and he doesn't need them to like him, he doesn't even need their respect of him as a person, all he needs is cooperation, since their situation is such that picking and choosing how you get along with people is a luxury. All they need to do is respect his knowledge and the fact that he has used that knowledge to their advantage in virtually all cases. Also, as I said before, that frame job was a reaction to the final straw, Rush has no reason to frame anyone else for anything. Apart from impeding his work Young has also undertaken to spy on him. That doesn't exactly promote trust in Young either and his loyal soldiers are disturbingly willing to follow him in decisions that, clearly to some people, could lead to everyone's death. Considering Young's current mental state, their military trust is in a hope, a hope that Young can remain sane and not become afflicted by his medical condition. The civilians don't really trust him or any of the other military personnel, as we see when they request to be present at the search of their quarters. Young has been undertaking spying on the general ship populace as well, although I suppose you can't really call it spying since the kino's are overtly watching them. Eli must currently have little to zero trust in Young.

Frankly at this point I’m fed up with this conversation with you, it’s like banging my head against a wall. You might live in some happy dream world where Rush is God’s gift to humanity but I don’t. I see him as a self centred, sociopathic, manipulative person, who marooned them on the Destiny for his own personnel reasons, reasons that he doesn’t even have the decency to tell the rest of the ship about. You want to go carrying on thinking that the sun shines out of Rush’s arse and he can do no wrong, fine, but don’t go whinging when some of us think Rush is a deeply unpleasant individual.

I don't recall suggesting that Rush was "God's gift to humanity", or that "the sun shines out of Rush's arse". My intention here was to show that Rush is in fact catching flak for things that aren't even his fault. I also feel that there are also many arguments circulating, not necessarily from you, that do a rather woeful over-simplification of the character's actions to now, which I think does absolutely no justice to how well Robert Carlyle has played the part of Rush so far, or how well his dialogue has been written. The tendency seems to be to project hate onto the character based on what are, quite frankly, some very poorly thought out arguments. I don't think one has to be dwelling in a "happy dream world" to see that either. I think I've explained myself well enough on the aspects of Rush's character I disagree with you on, so there is no need to repeat it. I don't particularly care if you disagree, since it wasn't my intention to change your opinion, just to explain my own as clearly as possible. I'm sorry that the posts which I took some care to craft seem like whinging to you. If you don't like them, don't read them, I won't spare my thoughts for your sake.

For all we know, Young has already had a complete breakdown. How many great battles have had military leaders who were totally cuckoo, but either had very good second officers or a great deal of luck, or simply were still able to pull it together for the decisive military bit?

If Young has had a breakdown, I'd firstly attribute it to his medical condition, not really stress from the job. It might be that his illness cost someone else's life at a critical moment in battle.

And then there's Rush. He isn't a sociopath, he just likes yanking people's chains, playing mind games. It is part of what makes him feel like he's so much more cleverer than everyone else. He simply cannot stand it when someone isn't as 'smart' as him. So therefore Eli is the only person he can tolerate. He thought he could push Young as much as he wanted, because Young needed him.

I dunno, I think messing with people and mind games constitutes a waste of his time. He is without doubt the busiest person on the entire ship. Wasting time with people and their issues is clearly of no interest to him. They just need to be focused on the mission.

[Stewart5]

I would just like to say I enjoy reading Blacklusters posts. They always have vdry well thought out arguements. I can say the same for EllieVee and Deevil. Even for some of M6P. The rest however are a waste of keyboard time. These people have decided to hate the character in spite of any and ll attempts to show why he's not so bad. The zth chevron arguement seems to be their only recourse to argue. Remember, without the 9th chevron, there would be no show to argue over.

[Deevil]

I contradict you.
That would be for a jury to decide.

And given that we are the audience, thus the jury - your point?

Negative, on "everything you are mentioning is beyond circustancial" assuming beyond, improperly used here in replacement of "extremely"....

STOP - I do not require a semantics lesson. I said what I meant. Your desire to semantically correct at a least a single point in every discussion is mind numbing. It not only derails the discussion, it's a blatant attempt to try and invalidate an argument. If you don't want to discuss, don't discuss. If you require clarification ask for it.

If you feel the need to continually correct my articulation I ask you to stop engaging me in a discussion because I repeat I say what a mean. If you want to continue to engage me in conversation, suck it up and move on. This is an informal forum, there is no need to pretend that we have to use proper English.

1- Rush risking the lives of the crew on the 9th chevron is not circumstantial evidence of his guilt of recklessness. He admits he is dialing the 9th chevron because it is there only chance to do so and thereby demoting the crews safety in the crisis.

When did he admit this? I remember him saying he did it because of the planet and the danger to dialing Earth - but nothing about him recklessly deciding to send them there because he wanted to know what was on the other side.

His comment of "this was our only chance" doesn't necessarily translate into "I dialed it for my own selfish reasons".

There is no interpretation
There is no bandwagon
These are facts and nothing but the facts.

Fact #1 is very much in dispute. I call it Saquist's Interpretation #1.

That is a personal interpretation and not a particularly relevant one.

It's one of the few things that is relevant. If you don't want to discuss interpretations, why are you engaging in this discussion at all? Me personally, I am here because I want to discuss interpretations - not created fan-facts.

[LtColCarter]

Uggg...you guys give me a headache...and would fail my debate class...

[Deevil]

Uggg...you guys give me a headache...and would fail my debate class...

man, I haven't been in a debate class since highschool. Debating was fun

[Stewart5]

Haven't seen much skillful debating by you either, LtCol

[LtColCarter]

man, I haven't been in a debate class since highschool. Debating was fun

I concur...that it is!

[jelgate]

I would just like to say I enjoy reading Blacklusters posts. They always have vdry well thought out arguements. I can say the same for EllieVee and Deevil. Even for some of M6P. The rest however are a waste of keyboard time. These people have decided to hate the character in spite of any and ll attempts to show why he's not so bad. The zth chevron arguement seems to be their only recourse to argue. Remember, without the 9th chevron, there would be no show to argue over.

Thats quite an arrogant statement to say just because we a different perception. It would be like me saying anyone who likes Rush is trying to cover up his murderous deeds without even considering what he has done or people aren't considering the attrocities Rush has commited for Young to conduct his moral ambigulaty. Different perceptions does not make one more right then the other.