'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[LtColCarter]

Given how Young is actively undermining Rush from the beginning, I think his paranoia started long before they got anywhere near Icarus let along Destiny. It just fixated on Rush for whatever reason.

I see this the opposite way. I see it as Rush undermining Young. Rush does whatever he wants without regard to anyone else on the ship.

Maybe its because Rush is untrustworthy

I think he is very untrustworthy

And yet apart from setting Young up, which happened long aftr Young's paranoia began, Rush didn't show any signs of being untrustworthy.

I saw Rush as untrustworthy from the beginning.

[shelley]

ok we get these episodes late and OMG i cant believe that young was the one who left rush there........

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

lol, at the last point, violence as a 'tool' is better kept in the military and out of civilized society. History is filled with examples showing how the very idea as part of leadership is ludicrous and self destructive. As a matter of fact, that it should even still persist in the military is disappointing.

Well considering the fact that any and all civilians were under military command at Icarus and there has been no handover of power, the military personnel are still the ones in charge and keeping people alive, therefore the civilians are still part of a military structure.

As for it being disappointing that the military uses violence, I don't know where your from, but generally most people recognise that a military train to fight. We train to kill the enemy, not talk them down. You expect an organisation that deals in life and death as a daily matter to be cuddly and pleasant, think again.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Motivation is very important, because if he did send them to Destiny because he firmly believed it was safer then traveling to a planet near by... how can he be 'untrustworthy' for making the decision?

Even if he sent them to Destiny because he believed it was the right thing to do I still wouldn't trust him, as this would mean his judgement was seriously lacking.

[aretood2]

He's not a bad guy. Just because someone isn't a 'hero' doesn't make them bad... it just makes them human.

We are more shades of gray then black and white anyway, and Rush is so that.

He is not Human because the Doctor said that I was Human and I would never do half the things he did.

I wouldn't care about the ridiculous chain of command either, I also don't think he is only self-centred. He cares, just in a socially inept way.



There is a lot of gray in the man... he is shades of gray, and actually interestingly enough he is exactly like Young, just a lot less violent.

How can you care in a socially inept way?
What grey is in him?

[blackluster]

Well considering the fact that any and all civilians were under military command at Icarus and there has been no handover of power, the military personnel are still the ones in charge and keeping people alive, therefore the civilians are still part of a military structure.

I don't believe this means the military command should be treating civilians like soldiers because they simply are not. Using violence on them as a means of keeping them in line makes even less sense, especially in light of the fact that the significant civilians have a better grasp of the situation then the military personnel do. The fact that the military commander keeps mixing in an unhealthy dose of illogical command decisions fueled by paranoia and whatever baggage he is clearly carrying doesn't help the situation either and so I see absolutely no right for Young to even consider physical force against civilians. To my mind that should be clearly contrary to his mandate anyway.

As for it being disappointing that the military uses violence, I don't know where your from, but generally most people recognise that a military train to fight. We train to kill the enemy, not talk them down. You expect an organisation that deals in life and death as a daily matter to be cuddly and pleasant, think again.

I think you forgot the context of the point. You initially advocated using physical force on a civilian as opposed to a rational solution as a form of punishment. I've responded to this in turn trying to convey how using violence against what is essentially your own team as punishment is nonsensical. I especially took this line of reasoning considering the motivations of Daniel which I strongly suspect is being re-created for Rush, since using violence against these individuals seems laughably small-minded to me as the military personnel cannot possibly fathom the discovery that is at stake and thus making them mostly unsuitable of passing judgment.

I'll try to be clear now so you don't misunderstand. Obviously, part of a military's prerogative is the means and the will to inflict violence to meet some required goal. What I content however, is that that being extended to legitimizing violence against your own is ridiculous, especially in what is a fantastic fictional situation. In both cases, beating up a scientist of Rush's intellect solves absolutely nothing and given the situation the crew find themselves in and what I think we will soon be seeing in the new season, Rush is the last guy you want to try that on. Roughing people up doesn't solve everything in the real world and I doubt it works all the time in the military either.

[Pharaoh Atem]

ok we get these episodes late and OMG i cant believe that young was the one who left rush there........

taking care of the trash

[jelgate]

taking care of the trash

I love that analogy. It seems so apprioate

[EllieVee]

Well considering the fact that any and all civilians were under military command at Icarus and there has been no handover of power, the military personnel are still the ones in charge and keeping people alive, therefore the civilians are still part of a military structure.

We don't actually know any of that. What we do know is that Telford was in charge of the expedition while Young was in charge of the base. That last does not, in itself, place any of the civilians under his military command, other perhaps to support the civilian and military expedition.

As for it being disappointing that the military uses violence, I don't know where your from, but generally most people recognise that a military train to fight. We train to kill the enemy, not talk them down. You expect an organisation that deals in life and death as a daily matter to be cuddly and pleasant, think again.

To me, that's expected, but using violence casually to resolve an issue that should be solved by talking seems overkill.

Even if he sent them to Destiny because he believed it was the right thing to do I still wouldn't trust him, as this would mean his judgement was seriously lacking.

To you, to me it seems sensible, but then more and more I ascribe to a utilitarian viewpoint.

[LtColCarter]

taking care of the trash

Seems right on track!

[Deevil]

Even if he sent them to Destiny because he believed it was the right thing to do I still wouldn't trust him, as this would mean his judgement was seriously lacking.

Why? You are living under the impression that Rush made the wrong decision in sending them to Destiny. There is no proof that he made either the right or wrong decision so therefore it's difficult to assume his judgment is lacking.

Young's judgment on the otherhand has been shown to be lacking over a number of episodes.

He is not Human because the Doctor said that I was Human and I would never do half the things he did.

The only thing he has done wrong is set up Young, everything else is supposition.

How can you care in a socially inept way?

How is that confusing. He cares, he just doesn't have the social graces and abilities to show people he cares.

What grey is in him?

Everything is grey in him. He is neither good or bad, like every human on the planet. Even Young, who I believe is an abusive moron at the best of times is a gray character.

[Saquist]

Motivation is very important, because if he did send them to Destiny because he firmly believed it was safer then traveling to a planet near by... how can he be 'untrustworthy' for making the decision?

Is it really important?
I would say that it be relevant if you had no other information to glean.
You see we can't read minds so the next best thing is the pattern of behavior.

I think the pattern of recklessness says more.

[EllieVee]

Why? You are living under the impression that Rush made the wrong decision in sending them to Destiny. There is no proof that he made either the right or wrong decision so therefore it's difficult to assume his judgment is lacking.

The argument hangs on whether you agree that stargate physics has been retconned or not. Based on episodes of SG-1 and SGA, I don't think there's evidence that Rush made the wrong decision.

Young's judgment on the otherhand has been shown to be lacking over a number of episodes.

This. His judgement is appalling at the best of times and I can only hope the snippet in Air indicates there's a medical reason for it. If he's like that all the time, heaven help them.

The only thing he has done wrong is set up Young, everything else is supposition.

This + 1.

How is that confusing. He cares, he just doesn't have the social graces and abilities to show people he cares.

I think anyone looking at his face in moments of stress would see that he cares. For someone who, people have said, doesn't care, he has a remarkably expressive face.

Everything is grey in him. He is neither good or bad, like every human on the planet. Even Young, who I believe is an abusive moron at the best of times is a gray character.

Because we don't know why he's an abusive moron. Of course, maybe he just is without any outside influence at all.

[Deevil]

Is it really important?

Yes, I believe it is really important... no matter what other information you have. Motivation tells us a lot about the character, and how they see and interact with the world around them.

I think the pattern of recklessness says more.

I think you have to show me a pattern of recklessness, because thus far a single proven moment of bad beahviour doesn't equate to a pattern.

[Pharaoh Atem]

I love that analogy. It seems so apprioate

PG liked my chess analogy also. maybe i've found my nitch in life besides audio remixing.