Is Chloe's friendship a "runner-up prize"?

[Starbux]

You certainly are welcome to believe that, and many humans feel that can't live unless they believe they are somehow more special than animals. For me, I feel that humanity is special enough as is, based on what science has learned.

Thanks, I do! I'm only throwing this out in response to your comment, because this debate is steering off into the sunset over deep waters, but, I can see what you are trying to express on a rudimentary level. IMO,(and there may even be a study or two on the subject), the inevitable division between animals and humans comes by factoring characteristics and qualities such as, decision making, conscience, morals and problem solving into the equation. It becomes increasingly and individually intricate when you factor in temperaments and life experience which is unique to each of us. I don't think you can separate any of these from the total package. Can you? I bet that poor chicken wasn't even capable of knowing he could quite possibly end up as road kill before crossing the road. It probably wouldn't even matter how much effort you put into his training either. I am merely stating that the human brain is amazing and capable of so much more than science is explaining. It is not all encompassing or always trustworthy, either. One week a certain artificial sweetner is causing brain cancer, and the next, it's ok. That's an exaggeration, of course, but It gives hypothesis based on the "study of the week". Science is fluid and always evolving based on new information. I don't feel that phenomena such as near death experiences, intuition, or "reading people", to name a few, really have been sufficiently or adequately explained either?

With regards to the parent-to-child sacrifice that was mentioned earlier, I had a general question to anybody. What about the other way around? If the motivation to sacrifice ourselves for our children is for survival of our genes, what would explain the love of a child for their parent? What would be the possible evolutionary reason for that? There is so much more to consider, otherwise, wouldn't that be a form of egoism and the end to society as we know it? I think you're absolutely right, Kai, humanity is absolutely special, but simultaneously and intensely complex.

Now, getting back to how that relates back to Eli and Chloe? I go back a few posts to repeat myself: She's not quite dead yet and I think she's learning what true friendship is through Eli. Regardless of each of their selfish and self serving motivations, I think they are becoming swell companions and confidants, which can have far more worth, fulfillment, and longevity than a knee jerk reaction to "Buns-of-Steel". I'm sticking to it.

[FallenAngelII]

With regards to the parent-to-child sacrifice that was mentioned earlier, I had a general question to anybody. What about the other way around? If the motivation to sacrifice ourselves for our children is for survival of our genes, what would explain the love of a child for their parent? What would be the possible evolutionary reason for that?

Isn't it obvious? Everything we do is tied to releasing chemicals which makes us feel good. Thus, we save our parents so our brains can make dope us up! Or something.

No, seriously, this is a part of my question of "Why do we sacrifice ourselves for loved ones which are not our offspring?" which Kaiphantom so consequently refuses to directly address in the vain hope that we'll let him off the hook.

[Kaiphantom]

Maybe it's a bit confusing for you because English is your 10th language...

How many times must I repeat this argument, spelled out in 4th grade English, before your English comprehension is able to... comprehend it? ....Is English actually your 15th language or are you just pretending...

Right. And you accuse me of ad hominem. I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully decline to debate further with you. If you are not capable of showing respect to someone who thinks differently than you, then you aren't someone who a reasonable man of science can converse with.

And when there is an refusal to understand the basic underpinnings of science, there can be no debate. I will welcome discussion with others, but I will have to ignore trollish behavior.

To anyone else on the other side, I at least suggest you distance yourself from FallenAngellII, as he/she is making that side look rather bad, at least from a maturity angle.

I will post this video again, because I know at least FallenAngel didn't look at it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB_htqDCP-s

I can see what you are trying to express on a rudimentary level. IMO,(and there may even be a study or two on the subject), the inevitable division between animals and humans comes by factoring characteristics and qualities such as, decision making, conscience, morals and problem solving into the equation. It becomes increasingly and individually intricate when you factor in temperaments and life experience which is unique to each of us. I don't think you can separate any of these from the total package.

The human being is a fascinating animal. If you listen to that 9 minute video I just re-posted, you'll get a fair understanding as to how scientists like me view the human animal. As he so aptly puts it, Scooby-Doo was an awesome cartoon, because everytime they took off the mask, it turned out to be *not* magic, but a scientific explanation. Science has been making steady progress from the beginning of time, explaining how things work.

For some people, they may continue to believe in fairy dust, or unicorns, or flying spaghetti monsters for their explanations, but I'll continue to rely on the proven methods of science to explain what really goes on. It doesn't take away the wonder at alll; indeed, it makes it all the more impressive.

Gonna quote Tim from the video again: " I am but a tiny, insignificant bit of carbon, but thanks to recent scientific advances, I am able to live twice as long as my great great great uncles and auntses. Twice as long to love this wife of mine."

And it still boggles my mind, about how people can log onto their computer, made possible by science. Log onto the internet, made possible by science. And then proudly claim in a forum post that there is a certain magic, even though it's unprovable. This has been the case, all throughout history. At one point, people said: "Can science explain where the wind comes and where it goes?"

"Well, not yet, but eventually it can..."

"HA! Show me the proof! Show me your studies! You can't, can you? The wind is a magical, unknowable thing!"

Repeat, ad nauseum throughout the ages. There will always be the doubters, the ones who refuse to read the signs, and instead choose to believe whatever they wish to, because it brings them some comfort instead. The scientist deals with what is. The insane deal with what they prefer it to be, regardless of what it really is.

With regards to the parent-to-child sacrifice that was mentioned earlier, I had a general question to anybody. What about the other way around? If the motivation to sacrifice ourselves for our children is for survival of our genes, what would explain the love of a child for their parent? What would be the possible evolutionary reason for that?

It's important to note that I never made the sacrifice argument; it was made by someone else, and I presented what modern science views as the evolutionary reason. My initial argument was that every action has a selfish angle.

As far as a kid sacrificing for the parent, this is another inherited genetic social trait that goes with sacrifice in general. As I mentioned before, we have been bred by evolution over hundreds of thousands of years, to value sacrifice. The group values it, and so to be part of the group, we take that as an imperative. It's similar to things such as generousity and kindness. People with those traits more successfully integrated with groups, and thus survived and thrived.

So the child is merely displaying what is inbred. Familial love also plays a role, which is another trait we've been bred with. Societal bonds were very important to the emergence of man as a dominant species.

[Skydiver]

Until i have time to sort through who's being a git and who isn't this thread will just take a time out for a while....short or long