Is Chloe's friendship a "runner-up prize"?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

escyos,

i hate getting the friends speech. you dont feel like runner up, more of coming in last place.. id imagine eli is feelign that too

No one likes getting the "friends" talk. It feels like rejection. However, the older I get the more I look back and recognize that I'd much rather the person for whom I had a crush be honest about their feelings for me. What you "want" from someone is not always what they want or are in a position to give even if they may want it too. That life. It's better to move on than remain and obsess. I say this an individual who was friendzoned any number of times in my youth and stayed there to obsess. It's a really bad place to stay.

Everyone jumping on Chloe needs to see "500 Days of Summer". It is a beautiful illustration of why being friendzoned is not a "runner-up prize" no matter how much it might feel that way.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

So spending time with someone because you genuinely enjoy their company and you get on well isn't being "kind" or worthy of being called friendship? You have to go out of your way to physically do something for someone, and judging from some posts on this thread have it be detrimental to you, for you to qualify as a friend? ....

....

What does anyone get out of a random friendship? You enjoy their company and conversation. It's something you can't define. As I said before it's not quid pro quo situation.

...I'm amazed at the number of people here who seem to think that friendships need to have some sort of ulterior motive to them or that people can't be friends until they've made some sort of sacrifice.....

Its not friendship if that happens. Friendship doesn't really exist if it require a person to do something for them.

You've all got it
Friendship IS the prize, and real friendship doesn't require quid pro quo. I'd never ask that my friends sacrifice for me. I wouldn't expect them to. Friendship, companionship, kindness. Just being there. I think if you go into it thinking that you're owed something in return for what you're doing, then you're not much of a friend either; it's become something of a mercenary venture, which means that the minute it gets rocky or it's not going to come through for you, you dump them. Real friends don't do that.

[Kaiphantom]

Ya know, I'm kinda amazed at the wide-eyed idealism and cognitive dissonance going on. Because everyone of you, deep down, if you had a "friend" who you constantly did stuff for, but never did anything in return... you *would* slowly do less and less for them, and get annoyed at them. It's human nature, period. Sure, you might still call them a friend, but deep down, you'd know they were a bad friend.

You recognize that Chloe isn't doing anything for Eli, so the only way you have left to defend it is "oh, um, Eli gets her company out of it, yeah!" It's weak and flimsy, and you know it. No one has been able to name a single thing Chloe has done for Eli.

If you really believe this, then be my friend and start doing things for me. I won't do anything in response, of course, but just give you the benefit of my company and kindness. I'll be waiting, but I know you'll try to weasel out of it, or not respond, or find some other excuse. Don't you want to be friends?

Of course, I see the quid pro quo going on in this thread, among others, every time someone says "Green!" simply because the person agreed. So to deny it, is pretty hypocritical. Everyone who has argued that friends are just friends, green me. I disagree with you, but now is your chance to prove it. Green me and leave your name attached to the green comment so I know it's you. Put your money where your mouth is.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Ya know, I'm kinda amazed at the wide-eyed idealism and cognitive dissonance going on. Because everyone of you, deep down, if you had a "friend" who you constantly did stuff for, but never did anything in return... you *would* slowly do less and less for them, and get annoyed at them. It's human nature, period. Sure, you might still call them a friend, but deep down, you'd know they were a bad friend.

You recognize that Chloe isn't doing anything for Eli, so the only way you have left to defend it is "oh, um, Eli gets her company out of it, yeah!" It's weak and flimsy, and you know it. No one has been able to name a single thing Chloe has done for Eli.

If you really believe this, then be my friend and start doing things for me. I won't do anything in response, of course, but just give you the benefit of my company and kindness. I'll be waiting, but I know you'll try to weasel out of it, or not respond, or find some other excuse. Don't you want to be friends?

Of course, I see the quid pro quo going on in this thread, among others, every time someone says "Green!" simply because the person agreed. So to deny it, is pretty hypocritical. Everyone who has argued that friends are just friends, green me. I disagree with you, but now is your chance to prove it. Green me and leave your name attached to the green comment so I know it's you. Put your money where your mouth is.

It;s not cognitive dissonance, as what you're describing isn't friendship. People seeking to use people isn't friendship. People who will only be with others because of what they can do for them also isn't friendship. My friends don't expect anything out of me other than friendship and the same goes for them. If I were to start expecting that they had to do stuff to deserve, or earn, my friendship, then we're not talking about friendship anymore. Eli isn't owed anything for Chloe's friendship. What Eli chooses to do is his choice.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kai,

So, Chloe didn't get Eli out of his room as the LA was surging from the Gateroom in Incursion Pt. 1 at significant personal risk when she could have just run for safer quarters?

This is not to say she had to do this to prove her friendship but that she did it because she is Eli's friend.

[Krazeh]

Ya know, I'm kinda amazed at the wide-eyed idealism and cognitive dissonance going on. Because everyone of you, deep down, if you had a "friend" who you constantly did stuff for, but never did anything in return... you *would* slowly do less and less for them, and get annoyed at them. It's human nature, period. Sure, you might still call them a friend, but deep down, you'd know they were a bad friend.

Except what you've described here isn't a friendship in the first place. If you're doing things for someone else in order to get them to return the favour then that's not a friendship, there shouldn't be any expectation of needing to do things for each other.

You recognize that Chloe isn't doing anything for Eli, so the only way you have left to defend it is "oh, um, Eli gets her company out of it, yeah!" It's weak and flimsy, and you know it. No one has been able to name a single thing Chloe has done for Eli.

And what has Eli really done for Chloe in the normal day to day circumstances of living on the Destiny? The major thing he's done for her is take care of her after she got shot in the leg, other than that it's been a case of them both providing companionship to each other. As it is we've not seen Eli put in the situations that Chloe has been put in so she hasn't had a chance to demonstrate that she would go further for her friend, not that it's required for her to do so in order for what they have between them to be considered a friendship.

If you really believe this, then be my friend and start doing things for me. I won't do anything in response, of course, but just give you the benefit of my company and kindness. I'll be waiting, but I know you'll try to weasel out of it, or not respond, or find some other excuse. Don't you want to be friends?

I can't tell if you're being serious and really believe that being friends requires people to do things for each other on a quid pro quo basis. I really hope you're not because if you do then that's a very depressing outlook on life.

Of course, I see the quid pro quo going on in this thread, among others, every time someone says "Green!" simply because the person agreed. So to deny it, is pretty hypocritical. Everyone who has argued that friends are just friends, green me. I disagree with you, but now is your chance to prove it. Green me and leave your name attached to the green comment so I know it's you. Put your money where your mouth is.

I can't speak for anyone else but I green people because I agree with what they have to say. That's the whole point of the reputation system, it's saying "I agree with you". It, for me at least, has nothing to do with wanting anything back or expecting that anyone I green will do likewise to me. And given that I disagree with your statements and outlook on what constitutes friendships I'm hardly going to go ahead and green you.

[Kaiphantom]

It;s not cognitive dissonance, as what you're describing isn't friendship. People seeking to use people isn't friendship. People who will only be with others because of what they can do for them also isn't friendship..

Thank you. You've described what Chloe does to Eli to a T. Eli fulfils some of Chloe's needs and does a lot for her, that's why she hangs out with him.

So, Chloe didn't get Eli out of his room as the LA was surging from the Gateroom in Incursion Pt. 1 at significant personal risk when she could have just run for safer quarters?

This is not to say she had to do this to prove her friendship but that she did it because she is Eli's friend.

You know, this is the first time *someone* has even come close to saying something Chloe does for Eli. To be honest, I had this in mind for a long time, and was waiting for when someone would bring it up, because it's really the closest thing you'll ever get. She was already in the room when the LA showed up, so the argument could be made that she didn't want to look shallow by just up and leaving Eli. Now, if the LA had showed up and she deliberately headed to the room to get him, that would be a stronger point.

Except what you've described here isn't a friendship in the first place. If you're doing things for someone else in order to get them to return the favour then that's not a friendship, there shouldn't be any expectation of needing to do things for each other.

You're right, but that's the natural result of friendship: people do things for each other. That's the real proof, and as long as it's absent, there is a strong case that two people aren't friends. Using your logic, Young and Rush are friends. Varro is friends with TJ because they hang out.

And what has Eli really done for Chloe in the normal day to day circumstances of living on the Destiny?

You're seriously asking this? The showers in Darkness for one, showing her where they were and then keeping an eye out for her. Giving her his blackberry or whatever it was for light. Waiting for her and making sure she wasn't alone. Taking her to see the gas giant they were about to slingshot around. Taking care of her when she got drunk. Covering for her and getting her onto the mission in "Human." Quickly forgiving her when she was worried he wasn't a friend to her anymore. Acceding to her wishes to leave the tic in and talk to her dad and keeping watch over her. Carrying her half-way through the ship when she was shot.

And those are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head. I could probably find more by actually going through the episodes again. Yes, Eli is a GREAT friend to Chloe; the question is whether it is returned. There is an old proverb: "No greater love hath a man than this; that he lay down his life for his friend." I think we all know Eli would, but the evidence is sketchy at best, as to whether Chloe would or not.

I can't tell if you're being serious and really believe that being friends requires people to do things for each other on a quid pro quo basis. I really hope you're not because if you do then that's a very depressing outlook on life.

And I can turn that around and say you're naive, and I'm realistic. It's a pointless game to play. My point still stands: If you do a lot for me, and I do nothing for you, are we still friends? Yes, there is no expectation of repayment because it goes without saying. It's psychological problematic to continue doing something for someone without getting much in return; it's a drain on a person, and unhealthy. Resentment will grow, because you can only give so much without getting your own tank refilled in return.

So, I guess you don't want to be my friend, eh?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kai,

She was already in the room when the LA showed up, so the argument could be made that she didn't want to look shallow by just up and leaving Eli. Now, if the LA had showed up and she deliberately headed to the room to get him, that would be a stronger point.

My thought is that when the are bullets wizzing around "look[ing] shallow" is probably the least of her concerns. I think this epsiode shows her genuine philial love for Eli. She could have run and left him. She got him out of there when he didn't want to leave.

[Starbux]

OK, lurker comes out of closet to add 2 bits to this line of thinking because I'm feeling inspired to speak up here.

eh, hem...here goes. It might be historically cliche to say you have to "be a friend to have one" or "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", but I do think that there is substantial weight in them. These words are not empty vessels. They carry power, truth, and substance. The question that seems to be coming up is, if someone does not reciprocate your belief system, then, how can you possibly call them a friend? Well, I think we have different levels of friendship. I think these quotes are the initial step in creating any meaningful friendship with "meaningful" being the operative word. I think that these will be foundational to any long term committed relationship. If you want friendship, be a friend. If you want companionship, be a companion. If you want to be supported, then be supportive. If you want love, give love. I also believe, that when you meet someone who shares that same belief system, you have the potential to develop your strongest and most fulfilling relationships. There has to be balance and boundaries for any healthy relationship, otherwise you might as well call it, like someone mentioned, one sided, or essentially, exploitation. That being said, not everybody does share that belief system, therefore, I would not expect to have a deep personal relationship with that type of person. I wouldn't necessarily "excommunicate" someone like that from my life, but I would certainly "proceed with caution" which is not the basis for that deep meaningful relationship and is supported by the quotes that I have already mentioned.

As far as Eli and Chloe, I think that they are forming the groundwork for a committed long lasting friendship that may lead to who knows where (I'm a romantic, but realistic, and this is a made up T.V. show for God's sake). It doesn't seem that Chloe has ever experienced a true friend. She was surrounded by superficial and self-serving imposters who claimed to be "friends". I think Eli's motivation is definitely affection for her, but I also think that he is the real deal, a genuinely decent guy, and he's displaying some rock solid and genuinely good qualities on a level that she's not ever experienced. Over time, if nothing else, Eli will gain her respect and a certain level of intimacy. Realistically, it may not be the "love connection" that he had hoped, but that is life, isn't it? He has nothing to be ashamed of and has been truthful, in his own way. She may not be physically attracted to Eli, at this point (I think he's adorable, actually), but there is so much more to a committed relationship than the packaging and this is what she's learning now...Chloe's relationship with Scott is lust based and that type of relationship does not have the foundation or stamina necessary for a committed long term relationship, it's just falls in line with how she operated back on earth...I have hope, she's not officially dead yet and wisdom comes with failure

OK, getting back in my closet now....

[Krazeh]

You're seriously asking this? The showers in Darkness for one, showing her where they were and then keeping an eye out for her. Giving her his blackberry or whatever it was for light. Waiting for her and making sure she wasn't alone.

Yeah, i'm sure Eli had no ulterior motives in doing any of that. I mean having pretty recently met this girl he likes and wants to get to know better he would never actually choose to do things like this just to get the chance to be around her to, ya know, get a chance to get to know her. These things weren't done for Chloe, they were done for Eli's benefit.

Taking her to see the gas giant they were about to slingshot around.

If I recall that scene correctly Eli seems to be pretty much forcing her to go along. I'm not sure how that was done anymore for his benefit as for his, he wanted someone there to experience the event with and she was the person he felt the closest bond to.

Taking care of her when she got drunk.

Ok, we have one possible contender for Eli do something for Chloe.

Covering for her and getting her onto the mission in "Human."

That'd be the mission where instead of letting Young give an answer after they both asked to go along he jumped in with a claim that Chloe had been reading up on Dr Jackson's notes? A claim that Chloe looked utterly bewildered by and hadn't been expecting Eli to make? A claim that was also shown to be utterly unnecessary by Young's statement that he never had any problem with having either of them go along?

So how exactly did he a) cover for her and b) get her onto the mission? Again Eli took an action which benefited him, i.e. he wanted Chloe to come along and thought it'd need a convincing story to get Young to allow that so he just went ahead and made one up.

Quickly forgiving her when she was worried he wasn't a friend to her anymore.

Again something done just as much for his benefit as Chloe's. He wants her friendship and so chose to forgive her quickly. It wasn't done solely to make her feel better, it was about what he wanted just as much as anything else.

Acceding to her wishes to leave the tic in and talk to her dad and keeping watch over her.

Risking her life so he doesn't end up looking like the bad guy who forced her to say goodbye to her dad again? What a selfless act that was. What he should have done, as a friend, was drag her to the infirmary to get the dangerous extra-terrestial tick removed and accepted the consquences of those actions.

Carrying her half-way through the ship when she was shot.

So we're upto two contenders for Eli having done something for Chloe.

Right so out of all the things you've claimed Eli has done for Chloe most of them can easily be seen to have been done just as much for Eli's benefit as hers. Hardly a relationship where all he does is give and all she does is take.

And I can turn that around and say you're naive, and I'm realistic. It's a pointless game to play. My point still stands: If you do a lot for me, and I do nothing for you, are we still friends? Yes, there is no expectation of repayment because it goes without saying. It's psychological problematic to continue doing something for someone without getting much in return; it's a drain on a person, and unhealthy. Resentment will grow, because you can only give so much without getting your own tank refilled in return.

So, I guess you don't want to be my friend, eh?

If in this fictional friendship I chose to keep doing things for you and then became resentful for you not doing anything in return that would firstly imply that there was an expectation of repayment and secondly it would not be your fault that I grew resentful because I had chosen to go ahead and do things for you when you didn't do the same in return.

In simple terms what each member of a friendship chooses to do for the other is down to them and them alone, it shouldn't be a condition of friendship nor should it be expected to be returned. Getting worked up because you bend over backwards for people while they don't do the same is to be honest a reflection on you more than anything else and I think anyone like that should take a step back and ask themselves why it really is that they are so eager to do things for others when it's not something they're routinely recieving back.

[Kaiphantom]

Interesting, Krazeh. You seem to be arguing that there is a genuine relationship there, and yet you're trying desperately to downplay things Eli has done for her? So which is it with you? Are they friends, or is Eli only doing all this just for himself?

I commend you on trying to change the subject, though. I know most people do that, when they realize their main point is looking pretty weak.

But I'll answer the question for you: Everyone is selfish on some level. We hang out with people because we like it. In the back of our minds, we know we do things for people because we're "paying in" so to speak, and want the same in return. So your arguments about Eli don't hold up to me, because I can freely admit that there is some selfish desire there.

My whole point is that Chloe isn't doing anything for him in return; quid pro quo, as you may like to call it. Whether you want to deny human nature or not, the truth is that everyone does something for their own benefit. No matter what example you can pull up, I can show that it has a selfish benefit; and you proved me right by contesting Eli's actions. Thank you very much for that. =)

[Puddle-Jumper]

Basically I think Chloe was just trying to say to Eli that she goes by the motto of 'Bro's b4 Hoe's' so to speak

Let me elaborate, essentially she was saying to Eli that while she would never have a sexual relationship with him cos well, she loves a guy with ab's and an ass that won't quit, that Eli is still her best friend and infact he's really closer to her then Scott is, that they'll always be friends, and that no matter how much she loves scott, she loves Eli more, her love for him being a platonic one.

And on a squeesy cheesy note, a close friendship is never a runner up prize.

[Replicator Todd]

Basically I think Chloe was just trying to say to Eli that she goes by the motto of 'Bro's b4 Hoe's' so to speak

Let me elaborate, essentially she was saying to Eli that while she would never have a sexual relationship with him cos well, she loves a guy with ab's and an ass that won't quit, that Eli is still her best friend and infact he's really closer to her then Scott is, that they'll always be friends, and that no matter how much she loves scott, she loves Eli more, her love for him being a platonic one.

And on a squeesy cheesy note, a close friendship is never a runner up prize.

You explained it far better than I could. *high fives* I agree that Chloe loves Eli more than Scott.

[Blackhole]

Interesting, Krazeh. You seem to be arguing that there is a genuine relationship there, and yet you're trying desperately to downplay things Eli has done for her? So which is it with you? Are they friends, or is Eli only doing all this just for himself?

I commend you on trying to change the subject, though. I know most people do that, when they realize their main point is looking pretty weak.

But I'll answer the question for you: Everyone is selfish on some level. We hang out with people because we like it. In the back of our minds, we know we do things for people because we're "paying in" so to speak, and want the same in return. So your arguments about Eli don't hold up to me, because I can freely admit that there is some selfish desire there.

My whole point is that Chloe isn't doing anything for him in return; quid pro quo, as you may like to call it. Whether you want to deny human nature or not, the truth is that everyone does something for their own benefit. No matter what example you can pull up, I can show that it has a selfish benefit; and you proved me right by contesting Eli's actions. Thank you very much for that. =)

I agree with your analysis that it seems to me that the time Eli and Chloe have spent together Eli has done more for Chloe than she has for him. I ask you; has Chloe done much for anybody else? The only things that comes to mind is when she volunteered her body for the doctor exchange when Rush needed the alien implant removed and defended Young in his mock trial. I think part of Chloe's character is that she is the damsel in distress. She is very pretty and has high social standing but from a utilitarian point of view doesn't offer much to Destiny. She is not a scientist and doesn’t have very many useful skills to contribute. As true as this fact may be it is also true that this isn't her fault. Along with everyone else she didn’t ask to be there. Eli is genius and as such is of immense value to Destiny.

Is Eli and Chloe's relationship seemly more one sided? Imo, probably yes. Is it bad thing for Eli? Well, I guess that is up to him. Chloe has been up front about how she feels and hasn't led him along at all. No one is forcing Eli to spend time with her and if she is being Chloe and is "using" him a little then that is up to Eli to decide if it is worth it or not. I think Eli's infatuation with her sets him up for a lot of frustration; but Eli is a big boy and if he wants to engage in relationship with someone who isn't likely to return his romantic feelings then it is his choice to do so. Hopefully, they will both grow from their time together. Eli needs to develop more self-confidence with women and Chloe needs to learn to be less self-centered and more giving. She probably always has relied on her looks to get her what she wanted. It is encouraging that she seems to have learned that the core group of "friends" she has had in her life have been very shallow and by association so has she. Eli and Chloe are coming from opposite ends of the social/status spectrum. Maybe moving away from the ends towards the middle will be what they both need to grow and become better people?

[coldpower27]

Was reading through these posts and it seems the subject of Chloe's manipulative nature is a hot topic of discussion, I have encountered women like that in my life, best advice cease contact and stop doing free stuff for them if they aren't giving you what you need.

Altruism means "the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others." But helping other people makes us feel good about ourselves so really, even if its on a subconscious level, altruistic behaviour is self serving.

Agreed, no such thing as "true" unselfishness.