Asgard Hyperdrive can reach Destiny

[thekillman]

It does not store energy in the normal sense as vaccuum energy is a different prospect

I am not sure what you are trying to say. From an energy perspective a ZPM is a battery.

that was proven when zpm was beamed from one place to another. This states that the computer handling could easily understand the base structure and convert it into energy and rematerialized it just the way it was before. The beam tech can handle it and did not beam an empty husk so all is required is an asgard core to rematerialize it using energy. If beaming tech can handle it then it can be produced so the argument of empty husks and no articial subspace is WRONG.

Please read my post completely before replying like this. I specifically talked about it.

Just to make this clear, a ZPM is an absurdly complex piece of machinery that contains not just the technology to harness vast amounts of energy, but also the technology to create and maintain a wormhole to a micro-universe and the technology to drain energy from that micro-universe. This means multi-dimensional technology on a nanoscale.


Beaming a ZPM fully is absurd. The energy contained within is MUCH more than the mass-energy of a skyscraper, and scanning and localizing not just every particle in the ZPM husk but also every particle within the micro-verse is simply a big no-no.

a ZPM is simply, how do i put this, "anchored" to a micro-universe. From a grander perspective, a good part of the ZPM never moves as the ZPM does. To the microverse, our space-time is of no concern and concepts like moving along our dimensions are meaningless. The only thing that moves is the husk and the husk just maintains the wormhole to the micro-verse. Beaming a ZPM only beams the husk and that husk is either made or programmed (or whatever complex hyperdimensional systems are contained within) to link to it's microverse.

Which is why copying a ZPM will just copy a husk. Well at best the husk is capable of connecting to the original's microverse.

I cannot say for sure about the first argument of yours of conservation of energy, but i don't think zpm is a basic power source as vaccum has no energy in "normal" sense

Yes it does. It just contains energy. Conservation of Energy is the tyranny of the Universe breaking it is simply not acceptable. Making a ZPM will always require more energy than the ZPM produces.

Not only this it should be used for medical purposes as well.

If -for a moment- you consider what's going on in that arm, i very much doubt it. But hey, there are far easier ways to reconstruct an arm, like stem cells.

The saga makes the use of nanites plausible this way so it should have been.

The saga first and foremost talks about the possibilities in the universe. The only technology that gets some exploration of limitations is the Stargate, but that's pretty much it. Stargate has barely any rules so the sky's the limit.

alking about zpm manufacturing, zpms weren't ever shown to be too time consuming to make so the anicents won't ever have energy problems atleast

Mate, please. ZPM's were never shown to be made at all. The Asurans had no problem because they had 10 000 years to manufacture them, and one ZPM lasts well over 10 000 years.

They can make beam weapons without a hickey, i am sure of that

We never see or get a reference to the making of any ancient stuff so this is the purest speculation. For something with such a benefit it surely gets used very little. So again, it most certainly was a late-war invention.

So damn advanced that asgards are like 2 year olds in front of their Einstein brains

I fully disagree.

i don't think making"bigger" zpms would have done anything

I do, but that defeats the point of a ZPM.

Atleast they could have moved atlantis to a different planet, that way the wraith would take years to locate them again and again.

With the Wraith in control of the galaxy? doubt it would take long.

It is not that we could not reverse engineer them.

What do you mean? it's exactly that we couldn't reverse engineer them, well at least not copy.

use the asgard core yeah baby, atleast it can replicate these things

I don't think the writers realized the can of worms they opened that episode.

My problem was that these "costumes" or armors were not stockpiled

Given their absurd power and near-imperviousness to everything, i'd have blown the facility skyhigh to ensure nobody ever has that power until we get to a tech level that we understand it.

I was also disappointed to not see that memory device and its promise of training pilots and scientists in weeks or days rather than years.

I think that's more of a moral-social-ethical issue.

Iron man suit is highly possible though

Keep in mind that Writers are qualified as Writers, not scientists and not at all as Engineers. Keep in mind that this is a show and that it has budgetary constraints. 3 Iron Man Movies were as expensive as the entire SG1 saga.
Keep in mind that the writers tried to maintain a certain show feeling. Having everyone run around in Iron Man suits would ruin the show really fast.

But most of all: please don't accredit the writers too much. There are plenty of cases where they clearly weren't realizing what they were actually doing, and most moments like that were in the late-stargate seasons. This is why i would love to see Atlantis and the Odyssey burn.

it is simply mega stupid to put more people's lives at risk for a rescue mission half way across the universe.

You think way too lightly about this. The philosophy of whether we should try and contact other species is similar to this question, and just as difficult to answer. It delves deep into things like game theory and complex psychological and mathematical issues.

The crux of the problem is whether the benefits outweigh the risks.

[destiny khan]

okay lets do it your way...

I am not sure what you are trying to say. From an energy perspective a ZPM is a battery.Please read my post completely before replying like this. I specifically talked about it.

Just to make this clear, a ZPM is an absurdly complex piece of machinery that contains not just the technology to harness vast amounts of energy, but also the technology to create and maintain a wormhole to a micro-universe and the technology to drain energy from that micro-universe. This means multi-dimensional technology on a nanoscale.


Beaming a ZPM fully is absurd. The energy contained within is MUCH more than the mass-energy of a skyscraper, and scanning and localizing not just every particle in the ZPM husk but also every particle within the micro-verse is simply a big no-no.

a ZPM is simply, how do i put this, "anchored" to a micro-universe. From a grander perspective, a good part of the ZPM never moves as the ZPM does. To the microverse, our space-time is of no concern and concepts like moving along our dimensions are meaningless. The only thing that moves is the husk and the husk just maintains the wormhole to the micro-verse. Beaming a ZPM only beams the husk and that husk is either made or programmed (or whatever complex hyperdimensional systems are contained within) to link to it's microverse.

Which is why copying a ZPM will just copy a husk. Well at best the husk is capable of connecting to the original's microverse.
Yes it does. It just contains energy. Conservation of Energy is the tyranny of the Universe breaking it is simply not acceptable. Making a ZPM will always require more energy than the ZPM produces.

Your assumption of zpm is false so that is why you are not getting it. It is not anchored or anything like that. It is a self contained, isolated pocket of subspace time. There is no wormhole or anchoring or anything. What you are talking of might be similar to something of a subspace capacitor which alternate reality rodney made for the alternate reality drive in season 5 of Atlantis. The tech is designed in such a way that it is a small pocket of space which is cut of from the normal space time we inhabit. This way there is no chance of any exotic particles coming out of the zpm and jumping into our own space time to create havoc and tears in the fabric of our universe etc.

It is an isolated pocket of space which is the actual hard thing to do due to being complex(cutting a pocket of space from the normal space time). It is not about huge energy requirements and it might have small circuitry to start the process of extracting energy from this pocket of space time and delivering it to us outside that space time. It is like destiny travelling in ftl, e.g it cannot travel faster than the speed of light in hyperspace or real space so it immerses itself in a field of tachiyons to take itself out of our space time and travel that fast while appearing to be travelling through normal space(that is something i heard an astrophysicist saying and i think that is the process being used by destiny as well but their is not way to know for sure as it was never explained).

Now the beam tech can handle the circuitry and the nanoscale miniscule details of the zpm... how? it was beamed from one location to the next. The tech works by storing information of a substance dematerialized(into energy) and rematerialze it on the other end SUCCESSFULLY. If the internal circuitry was too hard to handle then the rematerialization process would have failed and we might have gotten empty husks, but it did not. There is no way that beam tech cannot handle it(i know star trek started this crap and in the real universe it can never happen but stargate universe can make it happen within its parameters). The energy creation potential of zpms is unbelievable, but it is just a pocket of space unless you try and extract the vacuum energy from it. The beam tech handled it very easily so i beg to assert that it is not a star/sun which is already active and producing energy like a battery in the normal sense. You cannot blow a zpm up with a bomb, you can only overload it while it is active so that it can create massive destruction. Creating it is not going to require the insane amount of energies you are talking about. The insane energy comes when you try to extract the vaccum energy. I know this won't satisfy you as you don't want it to be this easy BUT IT IS. You have to understand that beam tech/stargates/wraith beam tech/ancient ring platforms and all that jazz is the PEAK of science and if you have them then you have pretty much everything in your arsenal. The asgard core is a super computer and what not but the beam tech modification with it is the real deal breaker in terms of science, which can materialize anything if you put the base structure in. If you try to put real science in it then real science also says that all i just said is also possible given the absurdity of the technologies invovled. I specifically chose beam tech. for this as we understand them better than the other modifications of such tech. Stargate is not really a wormhole device, a real wormhole is a shortcut in space in which you are physically travel, not just in energy form. It just opens up a window in subspace and locks on to the location of the destined stargate and "throws" you there at high speeds in the form of energy. The wormholes shown in "farscape" are closer to reality.

Stargate has barely any rules so the sky's the limit.

Well that is what my point has been all along... if sky is the limit then have the sense to achieve it...

Mate, please. ZPM's were never shown to be made at all. The Asurans had no problem because they had 10 000 years to manufacture them, and one ZPM lasts well over 10 000 years.

There is no evidence that they took a long time to achieve... maybe weeks or even months but not years. There is no evidence of that. I suspect they used nanites to manufacture them due to the intricacy of the thing. No one knows, but you won't make a power source that is hard to get.

I fully disagree.

Well the ancients were far far far more advanced than the asgards, 50 million years ago and the asgards are only a 100k years old... so yes please agree. Thor talked about the unlimited knowledge of the ancients, and how they only extracted only parts of the database and in thousands of years have only scratched the surface. So please agree. Beam weapons were the greatest thing the Asgards ever made along with a time dilation device or beam tech or their awesome hyperdrives. But they all did it by reverse engineering ancient databases take a look at this timeline i made...

http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/8...vies%28imo-%29

the zpms and atlantis like tech is more than 30 years old so zpms were easier to make by the end don't you think? and drones being this old, were always enough as they are effective although they end... so in a time of war which was hard to win, they made beam weapons as well even though their drones are maybe even more effective. But the beam tech i am talking about is the replicator beam tech which must be the a planet killer if it hadn't struck atlantis's shield. Such a weapon could have been made by the ancients...

With the Wraith in control of the galaxy? doubt it would take long.

well a galaxy is a haauuugggeee place... the ancients can see them but they cannot see the ancients. The ancients can see wraith ships weeks earlier but they have to be at the planet and scanning the surface. Tjere are many inhabitable planets with no stargates. Again keeping it airbourne might consume more energy(last a thousand years instead of 10k years) but still it could have been done by the ancients who CAN make more zpms.

Given their absurd power and near-imperviousness to everything, i'd have blown the facility skyhigh to ensure nobody ever has that power until we get to a tech level that we understand it.

that is again my point... the writers made blunders... HUGE ones.

Keep in mind that Writers are qualified as Writers, not scientists and not at all as Engineers. Keep in mind that this is a show and that it has budgetary constraints. 3 Iron Man Movies were as expensive as the entire SG1 saga.
Keep in mind that the writers tried to maintain a certain show feeling. Having everyone run around in Iron Man suits would ruin the show really fast.

But most of all: please don't accredit the writers too much. There are plenty of cases where they clearly weren't realizing what they were actually doing, and most moments like that were in the late-stargate seasons. This is why i would love to see Atlantis and the Odyssey burn.

I have been blaming the writers since the start. They introduced so many technologies and we are supposed to have them(ancient/asgard/goauld databases) but we are not using them and they are highly highly useful.

I wasn't saying that they make iron man per say(rather that they CAN be made) but something exactly like those asgard exoskeletons should have been made and i think the writers realised that at the end and we got 2 suits atleast but never used as there wasn't any chance to use them.

You think way too lightly about this. The philosophy of whether we should try and contact other species is similar to this question, and just as difficult to answer. It delves deep into things like game theory and complex psychological and mathematical issues.

The crux of the problem is whether the benefits outweigh the risks.

I fully agree with you here, they have all the knowledge in the world for a million years, they do not need more exploration until they fully understand all this and especially, ascension.

[thekillman]

There is no wormhole or anchoring or anything.

there HAS to be, otherwise no energy. The principle is the same as the Mckay-miller device and it too needed a wormhole.

What you are talking of might be similar to something of a subspace capacitor which alternate reality rodney made for the alternate reality drive in season 5 of Atlantis.

actually that doesn't require a wormhole

There is no evidence that they took a long time to achieve... maybe weeks or even months but not years. There is no evidence of that. I suspect they used nanites to manufacture them due to the intricacy of the thing. No one knows, but you won't make a power source that is hard to get.

There is no evidence that it didn't that's the point. Besides, a ZPM lasts well over 10 000 years, who cares if it takes 100 years to make. it's not like the ancients lacked free time. They're the one race that would make them because of their free time, lack of enemies or dangers and need for absurd amounts of power.

Well that is what my point has been all along... if sky is the limit then have the sense to achieve it...

I know, my point is that somewhere, there's a limit. We just don't know it's there.

[destiny khan]

there HAS to be, otherwise no energy. The principle is the same as the Mckay-miller device and it too needed a wormhole.


actually that doesn't require a wormhole


There is no evidence that it didn't that's the point. Besides, a ZPM lasts well over 10 000 years, who cares if it takes 100 years to make. it's not like the ancients lacked free time. They're the one race that would make them because of their free time, lack of enemies or dangers and need for absurd amounts of power.


I know, my point is that somewhere, there's a limit. We just don't know it's there.

what you are talking about is a bridge, not a wormhole. And the wormhole shown in the stargate verse is not really a wormhole. The farscape wormhole is a better example...

anyhow, i am tired of this discussion

[thekillman]

what you are talking about is a bridge, not a wormhole.

Potato potahto.

It's the same thing.

Whatever system the Ancients used to bottle a universe in a ZPM probably gained them energy, yes. But copying one with the Core makes you a slave to Conservation of Energy and that means a net loss. And that depends on whether a microverse can be beamed into existence.


Anyway, assuming a mission is sent to destiny, what would it look like?

[destiny khan]

Potato potahto.

It's the same thing.

Whatever system the Ancients used to bottle a universe in a ZPM probably gained them energy, yes. But copying one with the Core makes you a slave to Conservation of Energy and that means a net loss. And that depends on whether a microverse can be beamed into existence.


Anyway, assuming a mission is sent to destiny, what would it look like?

It is not potato or potahto... a bridge is a hole simply. In a wormhole there is actual bending of space which i don't believe a stargate can do even with the power of a whole damn sun and that is why i say that it is just a hyperspace window generator and just throws you another coordinate in the form of energy.

It is against not really a universe, just a pocket space with air sucked out of it and then by some mechanism taken out of normal space time. There is no incredible energy required in creating it. Oh just leave it, i am an engineer not an astrophysicist, the hell with zpms.

I would say the best way to reach destiny is by using a wormhole drive(quickest way). But oh wait, that is just like using the stargate so lets do that. I have no idea how far destiny is because it is actually been travelling for more than 50 million years but they don't mention that much and just call it a million years old in the series. It is billions of light years away and we cannot know how many. But if we throw my 240 light years/sec calculation out of the window then that means a zpm powered ship does more than 3 years to do a billion light years rather than the 48 days. And i think it is more than 20-30 billion lights years rather than just 2-3. If a mission can go that far then no use without stasis pods. It is just stupid to even think of doing that. Just use a stargate with a zpm if it is so damn compulsory. I don't think destiny is useful as we are not good enough to ascend yet and whatever truth destiny is trying to find will not be found out in million more years or whatever. We have the asgard and ancient databases, and this ancient database is far far more advanced than destiny. It is better to just study and adapt them into our understanding rather than wasting money on destiny.

[thekillman]

It is not potato or potahto... a bridge is a hole simply. In a wormhole there is actual bending of space which i don't believe a stargate can do even with the power of a whole damn sun and that is why i say that it is just a hyperspace window generator and just throws you another coordinate in the form of energy.

..what?

A wormhole does not have to bend space per se, by which i mean our space. Stargate has 8 or more dimensions already so it could just be the bending of any of them.

(4 for our own space time, 3 for subspace, and 1 to travel between universes which only seems to include back and forth, e.g. Daedalus variations)

Hyperspace is for example the bending of Subspace. It's a wormhole, but with finite meaningful length rather than the near-zero length of a Stargate wormhole. Bonus points since Subspace does not seem to be bent via energy (like our space) but via some obscure other way.

Stargates do seem to make ordinary wormholes, but they're more like microscopic wormholes. They then simply send the dematerialized passengers through the micro wormhole.

A ZPM would thus only need a 1-dimension wormhole (to travel from the microverse to our own).

It is against not really a universe, just a pocket space with air sucked out of it and then by some mechanism taken out of normal space time. There is no incredible energy required in creating it. Oh just leave it, i am an engineer not an astrophysicist, the hell with zpms.

uhm... read my post

Whatever system the Ancients used to bottle a universe in a ZPM probably gained them energy, yes. But copying one with the Core makes you a slave to Conservation of Energy and that means a net loss. And that depends on whether a microverse can be beamed into existence.

it's likely a process not unlike forming a hyperspace window, but rather than having the entrance and exit points really far away, you...how do i put this..

Consider the universe a flat surface, and subspace is a flat surface too, floating away a bit in some higher dimension framework.

To make Hyperspace, one bends subspace to draw it "near" in the higher dimensional framework. It creates a tunnel between Subspace and SpaceTime. This is the infamous "hyperspace window".

To protect the ship from the harsh environment of subspace (read: different laws of physics) the wormhole is then "extended" through subspace to a new part in subspace. This is the actual "tunnel" effect

To re-enter realspace one simply forms a new tunnel between Subspace and Realspace and exits.

This bending happens partially on the "subspace dimensions" side and partially on the "higher dimensional framework" side, so no actual gravity is needed, just whatever magiparticles are used to bend Subspace and to bend Higher Dimension Frameworks.


Making a ZPM is as "simple" as bending a piece of subspace upon itself in a "droplet" shape. A small "tether" remains that is then bent through Higher Dimensions Space to our space to drain energy from it.

. I have no idea how far destiny is because it is actually been travelling for more than 50 million years but they don't mention that much and just call it a million years old in the series.

I thought this was hard to calculate but it's not, actually.

by S2E20 we've seen about a year. In that year, we've seen one intergalactic voyage that took a month. Ergo, about 1/12th of Destiny's time is spent at really high speeds and the other 11/12th is spent at slow galactic exploration.

Destiny predates Atlantis. Depending on how literal you take that, it can be seen to be as old as 30 million years. However, the highest time factor for Atlantis is 10 million years so let's take that as a safety precaution.

of 10 million years, thus about 1 million year is used to travel between galaxies and obviously makes up most of the distance Destiny is at.

We also know it doesn't fly straight, but it was semi-straight so let's say it's 80% of a straight line.

In "sabotage" Destiny falls 50K lightyears short which is "just a few percent". 5% is enough to compensate so that brings us to about 1 million lightyears of the total journey. The travel time is not made clear but appears to be assumed to be about a month.

at 1 million lightyears per month, that's 12 million lightyears per year. At 1 million years of travel, that's a million million (a trillion) lightyears.

Now that seems to be an absurd distance, and it is. However we know that the last 3-4 jumps were barely made ("lost" or "sabotage"). If it falls 50 000 lightyears short, that shaves off another 150-200 K years of travel at lightspeed drift. This could be far more extreme though considering Destiny doesn't seem to travel at even nearly relativistic speeds. One 50K lightyear drift could even take millions of years, to tens of millions of years (1%Lightspeed to .1% lightspeed) to accomplish. For all we know, the entire time since Atlantis left Earth, it's just been drifting in space doing nothing.


It's abundantly clear however that in even a million years, it would travel a hundred times across the Known Universe.

they don't mention that much and just call it a million years old in the series

Mostly because it doesn't matter. It's not like such numbers mean anything to anyone, not even me. I can't imagine a ship millions of years old, or why one or two million years old would make a difference. It's like the dinosaurs: we talk about them with differences of million of years yet the difference between some species of dinosaur is a thousand times longer than the history of the Human race.

I would say the best way to reach destiny is by using a wormhole drive(quickest way).

That completely and utterly depends on how the wormhole drive works across longer distances.

that is just like using the stargate

The problem is getting a proper power source. Sending a ship by hyperdrive is a less power-intensive way.

And i think it is more than 20-30 billion lights years rather than just 2-3

As pointed out above, it's indeed likely dozens to hundreds of billions of lightyears away, yes.

If a mission can go that far then no use without stasis pods.

A couple of years is very doable.

But if we throw my 240 light years/sec calculation out of the window then that means a zpm powered ship does more than 3 years to do a billion light years rather than the 48 days.

at 3M lightyears in 18 days, the Daedalus would require 32 years to cross 2B lightyears.
at 3M lightyears in 4 days, the odyssey would require 7 years to cross 2B Lightyears.
at 240 Ly/s, an O'neill would require 96 days to cross 2B lightyears.

Assuming the "real" upgraded value is somewhere inbetween case "O'neill" and case "Odyssey" we can average the two to get about 3-4 years.

Of course, if the distance is 20B lightyears the O'neill would require 3 years as well.


I would say this gives us a fairly accurate idea that it'll take about 3 years to reach Destiny by hyperdrive depending on the exact circumstances.

[destiny khan]

You are wrong on many counts and your understanding of the parallel dimensions is all horrendously wrong but i don't like to argue or discuss like this. It gets boring as the process takes a while and it is not like we are talking live here, which would be a much easier process. I see how you have that many posts and i see that trend in almost every thread, but i do not have the stamina. You win

[thekillman]

I see how you have that many posts and i see that trend in almost every thread

That trend is a fairly recent one, by far most of my posts have been accumulated over years in small ones.

your understanding of the parallel dimensions is all horrendously wrong

I am not trying to force a discussion here, but i get the feeling i'm being misunderstood. That's not so weird considering the definitions in stargate get pretty fuzzy sometimes.

Just to be certain:
what i call a "dimension" is different from what SG calls a " parallel" dimension. Especially s1-s6 (roughly) has a very weird understanding of "parallel" dimensions.


What i'm simply talking about is Subspace, Spacetime (or Realspace) and the multiverse. Parallel dimensions and alternate universes and alternate timelines appear to be a very weird, fuzzy, shades-of-gray territory.

As we can travel through Subspace as if it's our own space, it needs 3 dimensions (also since messages can simply be sent through it) of space. Time seems to be a dimension shared by both subspace and real space, so 7 dimensions is all we need to describe actions in real and subspace.

The crossover via Hyperspace seems to be a weirdly multidimensional thing so it's possible we need an 8th dimension to describe travel to and from subspace. This dimension could be the same as the ones needed to traverse to the other "planes of existence", and Ascended Beings can simply traverse this dimension.

Then there's the crossover between (alternate) universes. As shown in "daedalus variations" there's a forward and reverse so this appears to be a single dimension too. The Quantum Mirror basically confirms this.

Strangely, this gets us awfully close (9 dimensions) to String Theory (11 dimensions).

i do not have the stamina.

sorry, i like discussions.

[Mister Oragahn]

We've never been totally told how the Asgards achieved those super speeds. We don't know all the ins and outs of subspace-travel either.
If subspace acts in ways that still follow some laws we know (and we know it's crossed byradiations, so particles, ergo matter), such as the principle of inertia, then it's also possible that after moving across the same galaxy left and right for thousands of years through said subspace, it's a bit affected by some kind of "second hand" attribute: the subspace in a given region of space might be more used, malleable, weakened or easier to shear. It may get easier to poke holes here and here. It gets like, erm, "softer". Then perhaps the Asgards spent large amounts of energy to maintain those paths or the softness of certain corridors in subspace.
Maybe they even have been doing so by "firing" softening beams from a single planet for repeated periods, like to maintain a route. They kept digging through subspace in a careful manner.
We've seen Orilla blowing up in a massive way, so clearly the Asgards had no issue to produce massive amounts of energy.
Perhaps they had found a way to exploit certain currents, weaknesses or somethin else in subspace. Perhaps they had placed hyperspace booster in subspace itself.
I'm leaving aside the use of power sources that contain enough potential energy to throw an entire stellar system into some super nova. Ahem...

[Mister Oragahn]

As we can travel through Subspace as if it's our own space, it needs 3 dimensions (also since messages can simply be sent through it) of space. Time seems to be a dimension shared by both subspace and real space, so 7 dimensions is all we need to describe actions in real and subspace.

Well, it's hard to say. Those tunnels we see ships travel through could also be a side effect of the process of threading a needle through subspace. But it does not mean that subspace necessarily works in three dimensions, although it's much easier to look at it that way. Particles "we" (humans in SG) seem to understand, being found in it, it's however likely that it would work that way. There's never been anything said about subspace being only in 2D or 4D.

The crossover via Hyperspace seems to be a weirdly multidimensional thing so it's possible we need an 8th dimension to describe travel to and from subspace. This dimension could be the same as the ones needed to traverse to the other "planes of existence", and Ascended Beings can simply traverse this dimension.

They say subspace is "underneath" somehow, but it doesn't mean it has to be less complex or equally complex as realspace.
If it's closer to the structural tenets of the universe, it could be much more intricate. It's hard to say.
Anything that's "hyper" about it refers to speed I think. Hyper is just another prefix for super after all.
Realspace could be a "dumbed down" expression of subspace. And with multiple layers for subspace, the "deeper" you go, the more complex but also potentially the faster you might go.

Then there's the crossover between (alternate) universes. As shown in "daedalus variations" there's a forward and reverse so this appears to be a single dimension too. The Quantum Mirror basically confirms this.

Or more precisely, it requires at least one dimension, but it could need many more. You can go back and forth on X, but also on Y, , Z, W, µ, etc.

[Mister Oragahn]

It is not potato or potahto... a bridge is a hole simply. In a wormhole there is actual bending of space which i don't believe a stargate can do even with the power of a whole damn sun and that is why i say that it is just a hyperspace window generator and just throws you another coordinate in the form of energy.

Seeing how a subspace disturbance device like the Attero one screwed both Wraith hyperdrives and stargates, it seems fair to consider that the stargates don't shoot wormholes through realspace, but subspace.

I would say the best way to reach destiny is by using a wormhole drive(quickest way). But oh wait, that is just like using the stargate so lets do that. I have no idea how far destiny is because it is actually been travelling for more than 50 million years but they don't mention that much and just call it a million years old in the series. It is billions of light years away and we cannot know how many. But if we throw my 240 light years/sec calculation out of the window then that means a zpm powered ship does more than 3 years to do a billion light years rather than the 48 days. And i think it is more than 20-30 billion lights years rather than just 2-3. If a mission can go that far then no use without stasis pods. It is just stupid to even think of doing that. Just use a stargate with a zpm if it is so damn compulsory. I don't think destiny is useful as we are not good enough to ascend yet and whatever truth destiny is trying to find will not be found out in million more years or whatever. We have the asgard and ancient databases, and this ancient database is far far more advanced than destiny. It is better to just study and adapt them into our understanding rather than wasting money on destiny.

There's still Destiny's copperfield chair of temple torture.

[destiny khan]

That trend is a fairly recent one, by far most of my posts have been accumulated over years in small ones.


I am not trying to force a discussion here, but i get the feeling i'm being misunderstood. That's not so weird considering the definitions in stargate get pretty fuzzy sometimes.

Just to be certain:
what i call a "dimension" is different from what SG calls a " parallel" dimension. Especially s1-s6 (roughly) has a very weird understanding of "parallel" dimensions.


What i'm simply talking about is Subspace, Spacetime (or Realspace) and the multiverse. Parallel dimensions and alternate universes and alternate timelines appear to be a very weird, fuzzy, shades-of-gray territory.


sorry, i like discussions.

Okay so lets chalk it up to miscommunication. I mean i really didn't get your classifications of the parallel dimensions. But seeing as they only mention a theory and base everything on it, we can never really be sure what they are really doing.

What is a wormhole? it is a tunnel through space... how does it happen? take the two points in question and and try to bring them together, the result is a bending of space and a small tunnel is formed. Now does that tunnel/bridge/wormhole transcend the normal 4 dimensional space time and become part of "subspace" or "hyperspace"? yes it does...

so why does a stargate uses such a connection? well my guess is that it would do this so that no data is lost in subspace... how would data get lost? if a simple hyperspace window is created(like all the ships in stargate series do) and simply lock on to the target stargate and send you there after converting you to energy but data would be lost this way... a wormhole is shorter and is a limited path so the data would make it across without getting lost in the dimension or it physically enters.

Stargate is a cool idea and all but it makes no sense.. especially because a wormhole should allow you to travel both ways as it allows other electromagnetic forces to go both ways. Makes no sense at all, but i guess the mechanisms of stargate itself makes these limitations on the travel. If you guys have seen farscape then you would know what i am talking about... that series showed the wormhole to be more "realistic" if there ever is such a thing. Matter going both ways and it is up to them if they want to travel in energy form or physical form.

The hyperspace travel is not traveling through wormholes, the ones that the ships do. Destiny does what the space inside a zpm does, it takes itself out of normal space time so that the limitations of the speed of light won't apply but it is not in any parallel dimension and i just mentioned it although it is not needed to mention right now.

As we can travel through Subspace as if it's our own space, it needs 3 dimensions (also since messages can simply be sent through it) of space. Time seems to be a dimension shared by both subspace and real space, so 7 dimensions is all we need to describe actions in real and subspace.

The crossover via Hyperspace seems to be a weirdly multidimensional thing so it's possible we need an 8th dimension to describe travel to and from subspace. This dimension could be the same as the ones needed to traverse to the other "planes of existence", and Ascended Beings can simply traverse this dimension.

Then there's the crossover between (alternate) universes. As shown in "daedalus variations" there's a forward and reverse so this appears to be a single dimension too. The Quantum Mirror basically confirms this.

Strangely, this gets us awfully close (9 dimensions) to String Theory (11 dimensions).

okay so i guess it is really a matter of miscommunication because i am not getting what you are saying, properly. Let me discuss it properly...

As we can travel through Subspace as if it's our own space, it needs 3 dimensions (also since messages can simply be sent through it) of space. Time seems to be a dimension shared by both subspace and real space, so 7 dimensions is all we need to describe actions in real and subspace.

Okay, i think we can pretty much sum it up that the 4 dimensions that we can see in our space time are maybe shared by all the parallel dimensions as they exist in the same space. We can only perceive 4 dimensions though, but as they are here with us, then that means that they share our 4 dimensions too(that is shown by how others in the parrallel dimensions can perceive us)

The crossover via Hyperspace seems to be a weirdly multidimensional thing so it's possible we need an 8th dimension to describe travel to and from subspace. This dimension could be the same as the ones needed to traverse to the other "planes of existence", and Ascended Beings can simply traverse this dimension.

Then there's the crossover between (alternate) universes. As shown in "daedalus variations" there's a forward and reverse so this appears to be a single dimension too. The Quantum Mirror basically confirms this.

Okay this is where i am not really getting what you are saying? but are you saying that as wormhole in a real space time allows you to travel through a narrow pipeline of subspace, another dimension makes up the bridge that allows us to go through parallel universes or to other remaining dimensions like the one that merlin's device(the one associated with lepton radiation) use or the one that ascended beings live in or all those nasty creatures do or the dimension that the sodan cloaking devices use? if i am understand you correctly(and it is a if) then i don't think that could be the case or is it?...

Look at our universe as a stack of cloths on top of each other in a bag. Now the first one is the 4 dimensions we inhabit and perceive. The one underneath is a small stretchable one that can stretch to the size of the first top cloth we perceive. Then maybe comes(lets assume that our dimensions are in no particular order) two joined by different cloths who represent sodan cloaking device dimension and the merlin device's dimension. They are joined as inhabitants of those cloaks can perceive each other but then all of them should be joined as parallel inhabitants inhabit our 4 dimensions while we do not perceive them. This also goes to show that our 4 dimensions are the primary ones and the others are just thin layers warped around us in some way and basically less significant and only supplicate our main 4 dimensions in some ways. Now imagine tearing a hole in the top fabric to enter or see the underneath layers and then picking a hole in all of them and even the bag to see outside in a parallel universe. I myself think that all the dimensions are linked through our 4th dimension "time"(and maybe the 3 xyz ones too) and that is why altering time can change the shape of the entire universe(well if time traveling is true). That makes sense as our 4 dimensions are the primary ones and without them the other ones cannot exist and these 4 are the main fabrics of the universe and the rest hanging on them. I myself also find the notion of time traveling and alternate universes to be absurd(the tollans would agree in some sense as they have disproved quantum physics but these things also exist in the stargate franchise... i guess the writers wanted us to be impressed by the tollan intellect of narim).

I really don't want to concentrate too hard on science and would like to keep my mind open and believe that anything is possible in the stargate universe. If i criticize too much about the science part then it would bring the series down. Although that does not mean that i don't want them to create absurd stuff... i want them to create zpms and what not and maybe use nanites aswell. It is all confusing "especially" due to the word "subspace" being thrown around for more than one dimension. Who is to say that all the hyperdrives utilize the same dimension to travel. Maybe there are more dimensions than allow quick travel times and different species based their travel on different ones.

[destiny khan]

Seeing how a subspace disturbance device like the Attero one screwed both Wraith hyperdrives and stargates, it seems fair to consider that the stargates don't shoot wormholes through realspace, but subspace.



There's still Destiny's copperfield chair of temple torture.

what you are saying shows that both the hyperdrives and stargates use the same dimension to travel beneath normal space and you are right that they tunnel is infact in subspace. I was talking about the notion that there need not be a tunnel. Open a hyperspace window into subspace and enter it like a ship would and get to the end coordinates e.g like a subspace communicator. But i didn't think it through properly as if you could send data/energy of a living thing this way then there could be massive loss in data. A tunnel through space would prevent the loss of limbs.

[thekillman]

Okay so lets chalk it up to miscommunication. I mean i really didn't get your classifications of the parallel dimensions. But seeing as they only mention a theory and base everything on it, we can never really be sure what they are really doing.

Reading your post, i'm certain it is. This isn't very weird considering the fuzzy, grey territory that stargate has when it comes to such thing as being out of phase and parallel dimensions.

especially because a wormhole should allow you to travel both ways as it allows other electromagnetic forces to go both ways.

Unlike a hyperspace corridor (the actual tunnel), a stargate creates a wormhole with near-zero length. Similarly, an Event Horizon of a stargate does not give off the same activity as a Hyperspace Window.

I would blame it on the size of the wormhole in question. A stargate would simply create a MUCH smaller wormhole, and physically "beam" data through, unlike a hyperspace corridor which allows travel of a physical object. This much-smaller wormhole allows the wormhole's length to be much shorter too meaning near-zero (especially because of the no-lightspeed limit of subspace) travel time.

This is why matter is only allowed 1 way: because the matter stream would otherwise be disrupted/polluted/whatever by two streams crossing.

Energy for this transmission system is biased in that radio waves and gamma rays can pass, but visible light can not. This can actually be because of tree things:
-the dematerialization process does not allow this (by design)
-the light does pass but gets polluted with subspace interference *kind of like the light in a hyperspace corridor* and so the actual picture is drowned out
-the light does pass but gets completely fuzzy so no clear picture comes through.