Illogical Final Battle in "Ark of Truth"? (spoilers for AoT, obviously)

[xSFx]

AoT > AvP.R !

[dzineguy84]

Stupid thought ... but maybe for once, the others stepped in to help and were backing up Morgan? When she said, *I am now* I was expecting this massive collective of ascended beings to descend and kick Adria's ass. This obviously didn't happen, but maybe somehow the others were helping for once on a level we'll never know about?

Just a random, stupid thought ...

[FallenAngelII]

Remember when Daniel tried to zap anubis with his ascended powers?

I don't think he was aiming for the timeless struggle, that's why he was stopped.

Even if that's not the case, if semi-ascended Anubis is a match for fully ascended Desala, than unworshipped Morgan should be a match for worshipped Adria.

Daniel was far from all-knowing about what Anubis was. He didn't know why the Others didn't fully descend him and whatever. For all we know, he could'e thought that he had the power to kill Anubis all the while he didn't.

Daniel was whisked away because he was just about to interfere with the mortal plane. Oma could do what she did because Anubis was currently in the Ascended plane (or one of them).

How much power do you think those fresh worshippers give, anyway?
How many are "true believers" that live and breathe Origin and how many are just converts by label?

Also, you're severely underestimating Morgan LeFey who might also benefit from the power routed through the newly-enlightened Priors (I'm quite sure the Priors had a change of mind concerning the ascended Ancients).

1) More than Morgan's source of power (zero worshippers). Not to mention the hordes of Ori warriors on those Ori warships who were still loyal to her.
2) The Priors didn't randomly start worshipping yet more false gods after learning the truth about the Ori. That would be stupid. For another, how would they even know about the Ancients? Also, the power would be greatly diluted into the Ancient mainframe (as stated in the movie) since there are more than 1 Ascended non-Ori (Adria). Adria, however, gets all of the power she zaps from her worshippers. Morgan le Fay would need a whole great number of people worshipping her personally and not just the Ancienst in general.

This is just an extrapolation based on what we see on screen but the subspace link doesn't work over such large distances, evidence being that they had to use the arc a second time in the MW to disable the priors there. This being the case and the fact that the power from the worshipers in the ori galaxy was no longer reaching her would mean that she is just a normal ascended being. Morgan in that case would be able to battle her. Another thing to note is that there must be a way for ascending beings to destroy each other, do you really think that the ori would want to enter into eternal battle with the ancients. instead they would want to rule over their believers, meaning a way to defeat them exists.

She should still be received some power from the Ori galaxy worshippers. I mean, what about all of the worshippers who were not currently in the vicinity of a Prior shouting at the top of his lungs for people to stop worshipping them? And I doubt they were all shouting it, some were probably standing around crying to themselves and breaking down emotionally for what they had done, like the Doci.

Someone wrote that he'd read somewhere on the forum that the Priors work as a router for all of that worshippy energy, but that was probably just fan speculation.

[Hyperwarp]

Ok, this annoying!

So........here's a little tit-bit.....

Vala & Adria

Spoiler:

Adria: You'll be somewhat satisfied to know that Merlins weapon DID work! The Ori WERE destroyed!
Vala: Really!
Adria: Somehow you and your simple human friends managed destroy quite a large group of very powerful Ascended Beings!
Vala: Well, we are always a very determined bunch; I always say you can never know what you can do until you try!
Adria: I AGREE!
Vala: You don't seem to cut-up about it!
Adria: NO! The energy transferred to the Ori by their human followers used to be spread out among many! No that I have ascended, I get it ALL!

So, All Ori dead! Only Ori left is Adria, she ascended after they were destroyed. She is just ONE Ascended Ori compared to many before, but she gets all the power of their human followers instead of having only a piece of the cake. And actually makes her far more arrogant! Power does corrupt!

Later On...
Morgan & Daniel (who's badly tortured)

Spoiler:

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Daniel: Then help us! (in agony )
Morgan: I've done all I can....
Daniel: NO! You can do more! You can do much more and you have to!
Morgan: Not on my own! She is too powerful for me...
Daniel: She?!....(Daniel rests his head on the floor)....You mean Adria don't you?
Morgan: She took on the mantel of the Ori...
Daniel: Yeeeah, I was afraid of that...
Morgan: She has their collective power....
Daniel: Theeen...take it away from from her.....and not just for OUR sakes....
Morgan: I've distracted her, I've helped you when you needed me, I promise you Daniel I've done ALL I can.....
Daniel: NOOOOOOO.....!!!!
Morgan: You need to use the Ark only on ONE prior! The Crystals in their staffs are linked to one another, its how the Doci communicates with all at once. If you can turn just ONE of them, Adria's power will be greatly diminished!
Daniel: How? HOOOW?!
Morgan disappears!

Want more?!!!

[g.o.d]

And actually makes her far more arrogant! Power does corrupt! [/I]
[/SPOILERS]

I would say more idiotic and naive

[Hyperwarp]

I would say more idiotic and naive

True......She was looking at herself as the future "ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD (or goddess)".......

[knowles2]

Well I hope that in the final cut of the movie, their was few scene to long and the some of the special effects was not completed,

I hope they give more hints that the others are letting Morgan La fray a little le way in the rules (or given her permission to intervene in the way she did ) and just this once they gonna let her intervene, plus a little hint or two that other ancients are gonna back her up in the fight. This would would only tack a extra 30s or a minute scene and I would of thought it would not cost that much either.

[FallenAngelII]

Ok, this annoying!

Morgan: You need to use the Ark only on ONE prior! The Crystals in their staffs are linked to one another, its how the Doci communicates with all at once. If you can turn just ONE of them, Adria's power will be greatly diminished!
Daniel: How? HOOOW?!
Morgan disappears!

Want more?!!!

I agree, it is annoying. What Morgan said was that Adria's power would be greatly diminished, not nullified. This is canonical evidence for that just by turning the Priors in the Ori galaxy and the Doci, not all of Adria's power was taken away.

Hence, she still should have more power than a lone rogue Ancient (who was banished and who was still toeing the line in how much she could interfere) unless said Ancient had a ton of worshippers who worshipped her personally.

Also, to whoever said that Ascended beings should be able to kill each other, I'n not saying that's not true. I'm saying that in Threads, Oma and Anubis set the precedent that Ascended beings of equal strength will be forever locked in a stalemate, not that they would destroy each other... unless for whatever reason, the Others put in state a mechanism that made it impossible to kill Anubis (but that would be stupid) and Oma was far, far, far stronger than him, making it impossible for both of them to kill each other.

[Hyperwarp]

Also, to whoever said that Ascended beings should be able to kill each other, I'n not saying that's not true.

If ascended beings are unable to kill each other, how on earth (errrr....in this universe) were the Ori going to destroy the ancients? Eh? We found out they were coming to destroy the ancients in S09:E11 thanx to Oril (Long before Merlins weapon came into the picture).

I'm saying that in Threads, Oma and Anubis set the precedent that Ascended beings of equal strength will be forever locked in a stalemate, not that they would destroy each other... unless for whatever reason, the Others put in state a mechanism that made it impossible to kill Anubis (but that would be stupid) and Oma was far, far, far stronger than him, making it impossible for both of them to kill each other.

Where did this come from? Ok, Let me see...Let go back "Threads"


OMA: No. He must have found some old, Ancient research on ascension. When he came to Kheb he knew what he was doing. When I realised the horrible mistake that I had made I tried to undo it, but I couldn't. That's when the Others stepped in.
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OMA: They warned him. He wasn't allowed to use any knowledge or power, unless he otherwise would have gained it as a Goa'uld.
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Later on...........
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JIM: There's nothing you can do. You don't have the power.
OMA: But I do.
JIM: You can't kill me either.
OMA: I can fight you.
JIM: Well, you can't win.
OMA: It won't matter, you won't be able to do anything but fight me back.
JIM: What are you going to do?
OMA: Something I should have done a long time ago.
JIM: Oh no, no. No!

[As Oma walks towards him she raises her hands. Jim raises his also, and as the touch they are both engulfed in bright light. The light forms into a ball which disappears through the ceiling. The Others are watching, in as much shock as Daniel. Daniel walks to the place where Oma and Jim were standing, and looks around in confusion.]


Errrr..............ok......Now, what exactly happened? Gosh Oma was tricked by a Goa'uld! Thats embarrassing!

I agree, it is annoying. What Morgan said was that Adria's power would be greatly diminished, not nullified. This is canonical evidence for that just by turning the Priors in the Ori galaxy and the Doci, not all of Adria's power was taken away.

Ahhhh......... well could be because she still has some followers in the milky-way! So not all her powers. In the Ori galaxy, they didn't convert a prior! They scored a direct hit on the "DORCI" in the City of Celestis! Beam went right above Celestis! Many (if not everyone) in the Ori galaxy practically froze! Priors and ordinary people! Adria just lost a boatload of her power. And she was whining like a little girl. You should have seen her reaction! Typical Ori!

And people., give me a clear answer to this.........

Who on earth said Ascended beings are of equal power? Is there such a rule? Would be a pretty dumb rule. Ascended beings are certainly not all knowing all powerful. Is there any rule which says they are equal in knowledge? Their understanding of the infinite universe is the same? The powers they can come up with are the same? They are "BEINGS" after all. They are not physical beings like us but energy based beings (The first ones of Babylon 5 are energy based beings. They have gone beyond their physical bodies. Vorlons for example). Don't see why some ascended beings would be more powerful or at least have a better understanding of the universe than the others. Merlin managed to cheat many rules and keep ascended knowledge even as a human and used that knowledge to create a weapon which could have wiped all ascended being from existence (S10:E03). It simply could be the case that Morgan was a very powerful one or Adria a very weak/naive/swollen-headed etc etc one or both. We see from the ascended beings we have had contact with that they have different opinions amoung themselves. They are not like identical robots from an assembly line (Even assembly line stuff have defects ).

Sooo.............is their a rule that says, "ALL ASCENDED BEINGS ANCIENT/ORI/Other MUST BE EQUAL".....??????

[knowles2]

As I say they should simply change the ending so that when Morgan turns a energy ball we see other energy balls join her in the fight. Then Daniel should say something on the line of look like the others final got of their arses into gear and helped out for a change.

This would solve all the problems, she get beats because even can not fight multiple ancients at once.

[FallenAngelII]

Where did this come from? Ok, Let me see...Let go back "Threads"

JIM: You can't kill me either.
OMA: I can fight you.
JIM: Well, you can't win.
OMA: It won't matter, you won't be able to do anything but fight me back.

Errrr..............ok......Now, what exactly happened? Gosh Oma was tricked by a Goa'uld! Thats embarrassing!

What just happened? It was just established that Oma and Anubis can't kill each other but only fight each other to a stalemate.

This is why the Ori were amassing power, in order to be able to overcome the Ancients who did not have people worshipping them. Please read your own quotes before trying to use them to boast your arguments.

Ahhhh......... well could be because she still has some followers in the milky-way! So not all her powers. In the Ori galaxy, they didn't convert a prior! They scored a direct hit on the "DORCI" in the City of Celestis! Beam went right above Celestis! Many (if not everyone) in the Ori galaxy practically froze! Priors and ordinary people! Adria just lost a boatload of her power. And she was whining like a little girl. You should have seen her reaction! Typical Ori!

Doci you mean? So what if they hit the Doci? It's not like he could work against Adria and prevent her from gaining the energy her worshippers (no, the galaxy did not freeze up, the worshippers did not freeze and there was not a Prior on every planet ready to shout at the top of his lungs for the worshippers to immediately stop worshipping the Ori. Additionally, even if there were, not all of the worshippers would hear them because some of them would be out of earshot and yet others might assume the Priors have just gone mad.

She lost a boatload of her power, and? She should still have had a partial boatload of power vs. (as far as we know) Morgan's zilch.

Who on earth said Ascended beings are of equal power? Is there such a rule? Would be a pretty dumb rule. Ascended beings are certainly not all knowing all powerful. Is there any rule which says they are equal in knowledge? Their understanding of the infinite universe is the same? The powers they can come up with are the same? They are "BEINGS" after all. They are not physical beings like us but energy based beings (The first ones of Babylon 5 are energy based beings. They have gone beyond their physical bodies. Vorlons for example). Don't see why some ascended beings would be more powerful or at least have a better understanding of the universe than the others. Merlin managed to cheat many rules and keep ascended knowledge even as a human and used that knowledge to create a weapon which could have wiped all ascended being from existence (S10:E03). It simply could be the case that Morgan was a very powerful one or Adria a very weak/naive/swollen-headed etc etc one or both. We see from the ascended beings we have had contact with that they have different opinions amoung themselves. They are not like identical robots from an assembly line (Even assembly line stuff have defects ).

Because Oma, a really, really old Ancient who'd been around for a veeeeery long time could only fight Anubis to a stalement? How do you suggest they would get more powerful? By amassing more knowledge? Since when does knowledge boast your Ascended powers?

Sooo.............is their a rule that says, "ALL ASCENDED BEINGS ANCIENT/ORI/Other MUST BE EQUAL".....??????

No, but there's clearly one that says "Ascended beings with worshippers feeding them energy = Much more powerful than Ascended beings without". Adria was preparing to, on her own, kill every single Ascended being in the Milky Way. Which means that at her full strength, the collective forces of the Ascended collective of the Milky Way was no match for her (the Ancients, the Others, other Ascended beings, Ska'ara, Yusuf and their friends).

Losing a great deal of her power would make her unable to take on the Milky Way Ascendants but it shouldn't mean that Morgan should be able to fight her without losing badly.

Also, there's still huge plothole where they both seem to destroy each other. If one were stronger, she should've killed the other and survived. If they were both of equal strength, they should've both have just fought each other to an eternal stalemate (like Oma and Anubis).

[xSFx]

Also, there's still huge plothole where they both seem to destroy each other.

Oh, you mean that animation that looked like it was made in Photoshop and was only meant as a filler?

[Hyperwarp]

What just happened? It was just established that Oma and Anubis can't kill each other but only fight each other to a

Yeah! And???

This is why the Ori were amassing power, in order to be able to overcome the Ancients who did not have people worshipping them. Please read your own quotes before trying to use them to boast your arguments.

WOW! Really? Where did that come from? So, according you there are equal number of ancients and Ori with equal power hence thats why Ori need to drain power from humans, so the added power can be used to destroy the ancients? LOL! You want me to start throwing out 1 or 2 alternatives to that?

Doci you mean? So what if they hit the Doci? It's not like he could work against Adria and prevent her from gaining the energy her worshippers (no, the galaxy did not freeze up, the worshippers did not freeze and there was not a Prior on every planet ready to shout at the top of his lungs for the worshippers to immediately stop worshipping the Ori. Additionally, even if there were, not all of the worshippers would hear them because some of them would be out of earshot and yet others might assume the Priors have just gone mad.

Who said whether the Doci or priors need do anything against adria? (Well at least not physically). Whole Idea is to change peoples MINDS. To show what is true! The Ori are not "GODS". Once they become un-believers, once they saw the real-light, thats it. No more belief/faith! Their MINDS have changed.

About the Galaxy freezing up, well if you don't like the word "freeze", I'll give you "stood firm"! Priors including one in the ship and normal people around just started to stare at the glowing staff................they certainly looked motionless.

Don't get a prior on every planet? Eh? How do you know that? Makers of AoT, as well as the TV episodes can't show every single human in the Ori galaxy seeing the light near a prior! Well I guess they could have, if they were more creative.

Eh? Who said the Priors had to shout their lungs out to get the message across? Who said they had to say a single word! Non of the priors had their lips moving when the Ark was activated..... The Doci did not utter a single anti-ori word while Adria was there! So ummm............ if they were going change them verbally then, yikes that would have taken ages . Extremely inefficient... Thats why they have to essentially "WASH" their brains.

Oh yes! Adria lost ALLOT of power (probably the only exception are the Milky-way ones)

Adria: NOOOO! You can't take away my power!
Vala: I think....we just did!
Adria: You'll all burn in the fires of eternal damnation!
Morgan: Not if I have anything to do with it.....
Adria: You are no match for me....
Morgan: I AM now......

Hmmmm.............wonder why mighty adria looks so worried....

Because Oma, a really, really old Ancient who'd been around for a veeeeery long time could only fight Anubis to a stalement? How do you suggest they would get more powerful? By amassing more knowledge? Since when does knowledge boast your Ascended powers?

And??? Unable to kill Anubis and really, really old does not mean anything. You could be really stupid (or something similar) and despite being really, really, old you are still unable to surpass ability understand the universe like newer ones. OR she was allowed only to go up to a stalemate because of the rules imposed on her when Oma herself ascended and not because she couldn't actually kill him.

Since when does knowledge boast your Ascended powers? WHAT!!!! Excuse me! How many times have we heard "KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!". One can use great knowledge and understanding to be more powerful.....

No, but there's clearly one that says "Ascended beings with worshippers feeding them energy = Much more powerful than Ascended beings without". Adria was preparing to, on her own, kill every single Ascended being in the Milky Way. Which means that at her full strength, the collective forces of the Ascended collective of the Milky Way was no match for her (the Ancients, the Others, other Ascended beings, Ska'ara, Yusuf and their friends).

Yeah! Off-course! When humans worship Ascended beings they become powerful. Yes, Adria and her Ori predecessors wanted to destroy the ancients. But, still they needed the Milky-Way. Otherwise they would have gone at them long ago. Orlin made that clear. Adria's situation maybe no different all. She needs more power and the best place is the milky-way, especially earth with close to 7 billion humans. She never said when she would destroy the ancients.

Losing a great deal of her power would make her unable to take on the Milky Way Ascendants but it shouldn't mean that Morgan should be able to fight her without losing badly.

Who said she didn't lose badly?

Also, there's still huge plothole where they both seem to destroy each other. If one were stronger, she should've killed the other and survived. If they were both of equal strength, they should've both have just fought each other to an eternal stalemate (like Oma and Anubis).

Wait in the previous quote I thought you said Morgan didn't lose badly? Anyway, this not like, let me seee..........

Morgan = 5
Adria = 4 + 1000000000000000000000000 (thanx to human power)
Ark activates. Adria loses most of the humans power therefore,
Adria = 4 + 0.01
Morgan Vs. Adria show down
5 - 4 + 0.01
After the battle a 0.99 of Morgan left.....

Is that what your are saying?

Remember, Morgan does not necessarily need to be stronger. Just even close maybe enough. They could have killed each other. Is Morgan, as an ancient, as one of the good guys unable to sacrifice herself? You don't need to be equal in power to achieve mutually assured destruction........

[FallenAngelII]

xSFX: That's why I said "seems".

WOW! Really? Where did that come from? So, according you there are equal number of ancients and Ori with equal power hence thats why Ori need to drain power from humans, so the added power can be used to destroy the ancients? LOL! You want me to start throwing out 1 or 2 alternatives to that?

Way to distort people's words into something completely different. What I said was that the Ori were amassing power because without worshippers, they couldn't kill the Ancients (and their friends). However, a single entity, Adria, would be able to with all of the power she was getting. Which means that numbers mean nothing if the smaller army has enough power.

Who said whether the Doci or priors need do anything against adria? (Well at least not physically). Whole Idea is to change peoples MINDS. To show what is true! The Ori are not "GODS". Once they become un-believers, once they saw the real-light, thats it. No more belief/faith! Their MINDS have changed.

Who cares if the minds of the Priors and the Doci have changed? They cannot force people to believe what they believe (at the very least there's been nothing to show tha tthey're capable of doing it). Hence, the people not within earshot of Priors would still be worshipping the Ori (Adria).

About the Galaxy freezing up, well if you don't like the word "freeze", I'll give you "stood firm"! Priors including one in the ship and normal people around just started to stare at the glowing staff................they certainly looked motionless. [/quote]
Yes, because you'd probably just go about your day should a mighty and freared weapon such as a Prior staff light up in front of you. Normal humans are not connected to the Prior information highway. They were just staring in awe.

Don't get a prior on every planet? Eh? How do you know that? Makers of AoT, as well as the TV episodes can't show every single human in the Ori galaxy seeing the light near a prior! Well I guess they could have, if they were more creative.

Because when Daniel and Vala were on that one planet in "Origin", the Prior disappeared from public view often. Also, a lot of Priors were currently walking around in the Milky Way and piloting ships. Maybe they do have a Prior on every planet. It would not matter. "Origin" showed us that there weren't tons of them running around every single planet.

Even if there were, say, one Prior on every planet, their shouting can only carry the sounds of their voices so far. Not everyone on every planet would even be able to hear their pleas for people to stop worshipping Adria. Not to mention the few (many?) who would react like the Doci, drop to his knees and cry.

Eh? Who said the Priors had to shout their lungs out to get the message across? Who said they had to say a single word! Non of the priors had their lips moving when the Ark was activated..... The Doci did not utter a single anti-ori word while Adria was there! So ummm............ if they were going change them verbally then, yikes that would have taken ages . Extremely inefficient... Thats why they have to essentially "WASH" their brains.

Yeah, the brains of the Priors and the Doci. The Priors, however, do not have the power to brainwash followers (as it's against Origin to brainwash people into believing in it... you have to do it the old fashioned way).

It doesn't matter if a whole bunch of Priors and the Doci stopped believing in Adria. There would still be followers.

Oh yes! Adria lost ALLOT of power (probably the only exception are the Milky-way ones)

A lot =/= All.

Since when does knowledge boast your Ascended powers? WHAT!!!! Excuse me! How many times have we heard "KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!". One can use great knowledge and understanding to be more powerful.....

How many times have we heard that used by Ascended beings? Stop making up things and assuming they're true because "you say so".

Yeah! Off-course! When humans worship Ascended beings they become powerful. Yes, Adria and her Ori predecessors wanted to destroy the ancients. But, still they needed the Milky-Way. Otherwise they would have gone at them long ago. Orlin made that clear. Adria's situation maybe no different all. She needs more power and the best place is the milky-way, especially earth with close to 7 billion humans. She never said when she would destroy the ancients.

She never did? What about when Vala talked about it and tried to talk her out of it and she said that she would personally kill them all? And this has nothing to do with what we're talking about, really. I only brought the "I'm going to destroy the Ancients!" to show how powerful a single Ascended being being fed the entire massive power of the Ori followers is.

Who said she didn't lose badly?

Because both lights went out, not just one. And Adria disappeared and the Ori storyline is wrapped up after "Ark of Truth", so Morgan couldn't have lost.

Wait in the previous quote I thought you said Morgan didn't lose badly? Anyway, this not like, let me seee..........

See, there you go making stuff up again. Since when does "Morgan should've lost badly" equal "Morgan won!"?

Morgan = 5
Adria = 4 + 1000000000000000000000000 (thanx to human power)
Ark activates. Adria loses most of the humans power therefore,
Adria = 4 + 0.01
Morgan Vs. Adria show down
5 - 4 + 0.01
After the battle a 0.99 of Morgan left.....

Based on your ludicrous assumptions.

Remember, Morgan does not necessarily need to be stronger. Just even close maybe enough. They could have killed each other. Is Morgan, as an ancient, as one of the good guys unable to sacrifice herself? You don't need to be equal in power to achieve mutually assured destruction........

The problem would still be "How did Morgan become strong enough to be at least close to as strong as Adria while she's powered by the few remanining Ori believers"? That's where the problem lies.

[Homeslice55]

The Milky Way Ancients don't have people worshipping them. Perhaps the Pegasus Ancients do. I have no evidence to support this, but many worlds do hold the "ancestors" in high regard. Even if they don't use the power, perhaps they still receive it. And we don't what relationship those ascended beings have. Just a thought.