Stronghold (914)

[golfbooy]

Not trying to rationalize. To me, that sounds like there's only one way to see it, and any other interpretations must be some mental tap dancing on the part of viewers. It's just possible that people happen to view it differently. If some people see an exaggerated superhero, that's fine. I don't think you're trying to find bad writing in Mitchell. I think that's what you see. And, what I saw, with no rationalizing, was something that didn't strike me as all that superheroic. It was the final piece in the whole rescue. When I looked, I didn't see that Mitchell had done anything so fantastic that no one else could do it, or that would give him a medal or a statue of himself in the SGC. It was such a small thing. And, Sam's attitude where she said she didn't think she could stop him conveyed to me that it wasn't some fantastic thing that she was overwhelmed by him or simpering about how cool it was that he was going to rescue Teal'c.

Of course, I thought the whole battle itself was instrumental to rescuing Teal'c as well as Daniel and Bra'tac gathering intel, and Teal'c not really being brainwashed at all. So, to me, the rescue of Teal'c did not come down singlehandedly to Mitchell. It came down to all of them.

If you see it differently, that's fine. But, I don't think I'm trying to rationalize.

Nah. I'm not trying to say that there's only one way to see it. And I'm certainly not trying to imply that Mitchell single-handedly rescued Teal'c. I am, however, surprised that Mitchell's behavior during the battle is being interpreted as heroic or praiseworthy rather than dangerous and foolhardy and, you guessed it, rash. Just because Mitchell admits the quality in himself shouldn't excuse the liability of it. If the whole point of the stuff at the hospital (which while being a bit overdrawn, was well done for the most part) with the dying friend was Cam coming to term's with causing his friend's injury, doesn't his behavior at the end undermine any growth he garnered from that experience? Isn't he just as bad, or worse, now for still doing wrong?

[Dani347]

Nah. I'm not trying to say that there's only one way to see it. And I'm certainly not trying to imply that Mitchell single-handedly rescued Teal'c. I am, however, surprised that Mitchell's behavior during the battle is being interpreted as heroic or praiseworthy rather than dangerous and foolhardy and, you guessed it, rash. Just because Mitchell admits the quality in himself shouldn't excuse the liability of it. If the whole point of the stuff at the hospital (which while being a bit overdrawn, was well done for the most part) with the dying friend was Cam coming to term's with causing his friend's injury, doesn't his behavior at the end undermine any growth he garnered from that experience? Isn't he just as bad, or worse, now for still doing wrong?

Would it be realistic for him to have learned the lesson then? I'm thinking it's going to be one of those things about him that will crop up again. It's not something he can just beat. And, it didn't seem like that was the lesson being given by his friend. But, I think the problem -for me- was again, the clunky writing. They needed to show Mitchell being impatient, since they told us that he was.

But, I still didn't see it as being shown as heroic or praiseworthy, and again, I point to Sam's reaction. Well, first of all, I point to the fact that after he had raced off, he needed Sam and Daniel to zat the Jaffa. Then, she didn't act like him going off to find Teal'c was something that only he could do, or that it was super wonderful, but more like it was something that any of them could do (I don't know if that was realistic) and that the only reason he was doing it was because she knew he was going to anyway, and it was a waste of time to argue. In fact, writing this, makes it seem like it was portrayed as even less heroic than before. "Hey, you might as well, since I can't stop you anyway." To me, the actions leading up to him finding Teal'c didn't come across as praiseworthy. And, afterwards, when he did go to get Teal'c was separate, and was part of the plan, and again, was shown more as something that any one of them could do, so not so superheroic or setting Mitchell apart, in my book. And, his actions there (not the running off) did help rescue Teal'c, and I could see Teal'c feeling that part was worth his gratitude, but not the running off without backup.

[GateAngel]

Well Stronghold seems to have some good and bad things going for it.

I'll start with the whole Cameron Mitchell stuff going on in this episode.

Good thing - I really liked the interaction between Cameron and his dying friend. We learned a lot about Cameron as a person. Ben Browder did a great job with this.

The bad thing- Can we stop with the story lines that have Cameron visiting people in hospitals or being in one himself. It seems like Cameron's whole life is defined by sickness and accidents.

All of this character development was all well and good, but it was so disconnect from Stargate SG-1 it's like Cameron isn't even part of the show. Cameron Mitchell desperately needs some development WITH the other characters that creates bonding between them. This feeling of disconnection is not making Mitchell feel like a part of the show to me. Nothing that happened to Cameron in the hospital scenes with his buddy connected to the progress of his role as a member of SG1.

Good Thing- I really liked Dr. Kelly. She had quite a presence and I hope we see her again. I liked Mitchell's friend and I was sad when he died.

Bad thing - why on earth did Cameron leave behind top secret and highly important technology without any kind of guard or protection. Why was Sam carting it around like it was nothing.

Really Good thing - I was so happy to see Sam being the soldier again and showing her competed side again. I had read some thing somewhere that said the issue of who is in command was being resolved by showing Sam leading missions with multiple teams on them and Cameron in charge of SG-1. I can see this working out nicely especially after watching Stronghold and seeing her leading the whole rescue mission and all the SG teams on it. That is the kind of rank Carter would have based on her experience. She did a great job too.

Baal's role in this was absolute genuis on the part of the writers. This is the perfect direction for the Goa'uld to go in and still keep their hands in play. They are scavengers and they have always built their power and position by riding on the shoulders of things created or done by others.

I loved the subtle yet powerful way it was shown that Daniel still misses Jack being there with them. Him throwing the ball back and forth to himself that he and Jack used to throw to each other to keep them from getting restless while waiting was a wonderful touch. It was a great character moment for Daniel.

Teal'c and Bra'tac were very good together as always. CJ and Tony made what could have been boring or stilted dialog and scenes come to life with their very powerful presence. I am glad that Teal'c wasn't wallpaper in this episode. I liked that not all the Jaffa have turned to using Tretonion. That is realistic.

Bad things: Other than that character moment, Daniel was pretty much just wallpaper in the background who stood around with a worried expression on his face. The female Jaffa counsel member finally got a name, but sometimes it sounded like Ka-el and I kept thinking 'but she doesn't look a thing like Superman to me' and sometimes it sounded like Corel. I like her though.

So to sum it up, I really wish that SG-1 had been more of a team in this episode. I wish the 'learning about Mitchell's stuff had been through interaction with his team mates and not so disconneted. While it made me like and understand Mitchell more, it didn't do anything to make me feel like he is a real part of SG1 or even on the same show as the rest of cast. As it is, Mitchell's a good character, he's just not an SG1 character to me quite yet.

[gateslacker]

Hummm...haven't posted in a very long time but I wanted to because I think I viewed Mitchell's actions in the end a little differently. He was rash but all of the team members have been rash in the past and done some rather foolhardy things. ALL of them!!! It's what I like about them. But, I didn't really see his rash behavior as part of his being a hothead or what have you. Neither did I see it as a devious ploy by the writers to make him into a Super Hero. I saw it as Mitchell trying to save one friend because there was nothing he could do to save the other.

I can also cut Mitchell a little slack now and again. He hasn't been fighting intergalactic bad guys for 8 years.

I really enjoyed this episode although I didn't expect to.

[Buzz Lightyear]

I so agree with you on this. When I saw that scene, I felt it should have been Jack throwing the ball and Daniel telling Jack to stop because it was making him nervous. It was totally out of place. I mean, I liked it because it was a cute scene btwn Daniel and Carter, but it was just out of character. What ever happened to Daniel's journal anyway? It seems he never got it back from Jonah.

I agree with you both. They're in a temple on the planet of Dakara and all Daniel can find to occupy his time is bouncing a ball off a wall? You mean they've translated every single inscription on every single wall and artifact in that place?

[Dani347]

Doesn't translating take at least a bit of concentration? When your mind is preoccupied with something as big as whether or not the Jaffa will vote for democracy, translating might not be possible, even for Daniel. I think he needed to do something that didn't require mental processes, because they were already on overflow. Plus, to me, the force that he was bouncing the ball also suggested that his mind was going a mile a minute and he was full of nervous energy. I imagine at that point, any inscriptions on the walls would look like gibberish until they got word that the vote had gone through.

eta: Another thing I liked with Daniel was not only did he come up with the idea of trying the ritual on the Jaffa, but the way he and Bra'tac tag played off each other relaying the info they found to Landry.

[chocdoc]

Hummm...haven't posted in a very long time but I wanted to because I think I viewed Mitchell's actions in the end a little differently. He was rash but all of the team members have been rash in the past and done some rather foolhardy things. ALL of them!!! It's what I like about them. But, I didn't really see his rash behavior as part of his being a hothead or what have you. Neither did I see it as a devious ploy by the writers to make him into a Super Hero. I saw it as Mitchell trying to save one friend because there was nothing he could do to save the other.

I can also cut Mitchell a little slack now and again. He hasn't been fighting intergalactic bad guys for 8 years.

I really enjoyed this episode although I didn't expect to.

And that's the point, isn't it? He hasn't been fighting intergalatic bad guys for 8 years, so why is he co-leading SG-1! I would not have minded Mitchell's behavior on the battlefield at all if he had just communicated to his TEAM members what he was doing! He had no regard for the team or Sam. That is reckless and irresponsible behavior for a lt. Col.. Does this give him character growth? Not to me because I am supposed to believe for 14 episodes now that he is competent to co-lead SG-1. I didn't see that here, and I haven't seen it yet. I saw selfish behavior, and Sam and Daniel had to go cover him. They essentially saved him from his reckless behavior. What plan did he have? If he had asked for backup, it would have been much better. Turns out he needed them to help Teal'c, as you would expect. Only Sam could make the rings work. He should no better as a lt. col.

[Dani347]

Someone mentioned this on another board, but I agree, so I'm mentioning it here. It's a shame that the whole business of female Jaffa having the right to vote was only made by someone who had been brainwashed, and then it wasn't given any more consideration.

[warmbeachbrat]

After watching the show the second time, I had a few more thoughts:

Wow, was it a bad hair day for EVERYBODY? It was most noticeable with Sam and Daniel, but it wasn't a great hair moment for everyone in the episode.

Didn't Ferguson mention something about working on a subcontract with Zephyr? Has that term ever been mentioned in the show before? Just wondering if it's new or if it's been brought up before. It kind of sounded like something out of the eight season, but I can't quite place it.

There was some nice continuity with Ferguson mentioning the building in Seattle and the "flu" pandemic.

I liked the last moments of the show with Mitchell and Tea'lc. Tea'lc felt it was important to connect with Mitchell, and even though Cam wanted to be left alone, he felt that effort and countered with his own effort to reach out to Tea'lc--asking his advice--perhaps it will come in handy someday. Tea'lc doesn't strike me as a toucy, feely type of guy, so I think he knew what Mitchell was getting at and appreciated it. I didn't expect them to get all huggy, weepy or whatever, so I wasn't disappointed with the scene and I didn't feel that Mitchell rebuffed Tea'lc. Anyway, just my opinion.

When Tea'lc first saw Ba'al and said, "You!" did anyone else think Ba'al would make some crack about Lord Yu? THAT would have been funny.

Speaking of Ba'al, I caught Abyss last week and I was struck by how different he was in that episode than how he is now. In Abyss, he had this really menacing undercurrent. That slow, ringing walk into the room and up the steps (without even looking) and a real sense of danger about him (I suppose having knives and acid contributed to that)--even when he was empathizing with Jack (or trying to anyway), he still had that barely leashed, indefinable something that made you know he was BAD. It kind of went away after that episode.

I noticed that Ba'al dropped his flanged voice when Tea'lc accused him of being a false god. He was almost folksy with Tea'lc, and he almost made sense! Hmmmm--so Ba'al knows about Tretonin. I wonder how it would affect a Goa'uld? Anyone notice that Ba'al kept his hand above the button on his wrist in his last scene? I wonder what that was about--it didn't help him much, did it? I don't think he's dead, though, and I really don't think it was a clone, either. I get the impression the clones are on earth, but not elsewhere. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I paid more attention to what the doctor was saying the second time around, and I realize that this hospital knows all about the Stargate program, so I'm not near as bothered about Cam just leaving the equipment there. They've got it covered, I'm sure.

I thought this was a pretty good episode. There are others I like better, but there are a great many more I like less. I would give it three out of four stars.

[chocdoc]

Someone mentioned this on another board, but I agree, so I'm mentioning it here. It's a shame that the whole business of female Jaffa having the right to vote was only made by someone who had been brainwashed, and then it wasn't given any more consideration.

Yes, that bothered me too. And I didn't know how to take Teal'c's reaction to this right to vote issue. It was frustrating. As a friend of mine said, the only female Jaffa on the council and she has to be brainwashed, and this issue has to be shuffled under the rug, when in fact, it is an important issue for the Jaffa council. I wonder if it will be brought up again, but under better circumstances?

[Dani347]

After watching the show the second time, I had a few more thoughts:

Wow, was it a bad hair day for EVERYBODY? It was most noticeable with Sam and Daniel, but it wasn't a great hair moment for everyone in the episode.

Hmm, I didn't notice anything particularly bad about their hair.

Tea'lc felt it was important to connect with Mitchell, and even though Cam wanted to be left alone, he felt that effort and countered with his own effort to reach out to Tea'lc--asking his advice--perhaps it will come in handy someday.

Very good point. I think sometimes asking for help is a good way to say you appreciate someone's gesture. After the abrupt, but understandable "I would have done it for anyone" it did seem like Mitchell's way of reaching out.

Speaking of Ba'al, I caught Abyss last week and I was struck by how different he was in that episode than how he is now. In Abyss, he had this really menacing undercurrent. That slow, ringing walk into the room and up the steps (without even looking) and a real sense of danger about him (I suppose having knives and acid contributed to that)--even when he was empathizing with Jack (or trying to anyway), he still had that barely leashed, indefinable something that made you know he was BAD. It kind of went away after that episode.

Yes! I did think it was missing in this episode. The whole menace, evil, intimidating guy just seems slimey now.

I noticed that Ba'al dropped his flanged voice when Tea'lc accused him of being a false god.

You know, I never heard the word flanged before this thread. I had always just called it the Goa'uldy voice.

chocdoc

And I didn't know how to take Teal'c's reaction to this right to vote issue. It was frustrating. As a friend of mine said, the only female Jaffa on the council and she has to be brainwashed, and this issue has to be shuffled under the rug, when in fact, it is an important issue for the Jaffa council. I wonder if it will be brought up again, but under better circumstances?

It makes me wonder how Teal'c feels about a woman's place in general. Are Sam and Ish'ta the exceptions, because they've proven themselves as warriors? Does he feel that the matter of female Jaffa being able to vote is a minor issue that should be dealt with, but not at the expense of the larger issue, or does he feel that it's an issue that shouldn't be brought up at all? Does he think they're honored (he did speak of Drey'auc affectionately in Birthright, but not patronizingly) but honored in "their place" and that voting is a men's thing?

And, I hope it is brought up again, although I have my doubts.

[jckfan55]

I have liked the woman Jaffa council member. I hope she recovers and that women's suffrage is okd. Very glad to see Bra'tak is still with us.

[majorsal]

ON EDIT: The episode would've been better for me, had I not been solely banking on a bonafide team ep. My expectations were a bit high, so my take on this episode may be extremely tainted by my scathing disappointment.

and see, my expectations were so low that they were almost non-existant. after the ep-after-ep blow that i've taken as a sam fan and s/j shipper, any ep were i'm not left crying or pissed by the end is great. all i knew and 'expected' was sam leading some group of ppl through the gate. i didn't really even know 'what' she was leading this group for.

it seems that all i go into an ep now with is how much i'm going to cringe or come away upset. so if i don't go through either one (whether the ep is good or not) gives the ep a higher mark.

can't say that's the way to judge/go into an ep, but my blood pressure remained the same by the end (you know, no mini strokes or declarations of quitting ) so yay.




sally


ps - ever have the second-day bugs? you know, after recovering from the ep and 'then' seeing it for what it was? reading everyone's views on it (specifically mitchell) has made me look at it a bit closer.

[Dani347]

I have liked the woman Jaffa council member. I hope she recovers and that women's suffrage is okd. Very glad to see Bra'tak is still with us.

I don't know if they could do an entire episode around it, but it would be nice to see it come up in an episode where Bra'tac is elected leader.

majorsal

ps - ever have the second-day bugs? you know, after recovering from the ep and 'then' seeing it for what it was? reading everyone's views on it (specifically mitchell) has made me look at it a bit closer.

For me, seeing other people's opinions have solidified mine. I guess because seeing them, and having them so different from mine has made me really think about why I feel the way I do, and I had to think beyond the first impression, only I found even with reflection, I still feel the same way.

[binkpmmc]

Hummm...haven't posted in a very long time but I wanted to because I think I viewed Mitchell's actions in the end a little differently. He was rash but all of the team members have been rash in the past and done some rather foolhardy things. ALL of them!!! It's what I like about them. But, I didn't really see his rash behavior as part of his being a hothead or what have you. Neither did I see it as a devious ploy by the writers to make him into a Super Hero. I saw it as Mitchell trying to save one friend because there was nothing he could do to save the other.

I can also cut Mitchell a little slack now and again. He hasn't been fighting intergalactic bad guys for 8 years.

I really enjoyed this episode although I didn't expect to.

The problem I have with what Mitchell did is it is a continuation of what I see as bad judgement and immaturity on his part; he is supposed to be co-leader of this team. What I saw last night was a rash, hot-headed individual, not a teammate (there is no I in team) who in no way appeared to me to be someone that should be co-leader of anything especially the elite, front-line team (thank God he was not in charge of this mission - he is a detriment).

If he was on my team I would want him as far away from me as possible he has such a prevelance for getting beaten up, captured and into trouble that I would not want to waste my time and effort, especially when on a mission to save a world or a people or someone else, having to digress from the original mission to save his hot-headed, sorry a$$ like Sam and Daniel had to do last night. Inexcusable and despicable writing. This charater appears to me to be going backwards instead of forwards in his growth on this team.