Stronghold (914)

[majorsal]

Tear gas? Maybe they could try using one of those magic eight-ball stun grenades they always have when it’s convenient for the plot, but never have when it’s actually needed to win a fight.

and they can't hit their targets!



sally

[majorsal]

(Please don't flame me for the following statements)
The battle scene illustrated the point that Mitchell's friend made: Good leaders sometimes break the rules and "do" instead of "think." Sam is an acceptable team leader, but as we've seen in episodes like Gemini, she is not the best leader. She thinks when she should act sometimes. Mitchell did override her command, but her battle tactics were getting nowhere fast. His actions allowed more soldiers to survive, saved Teal'c, and saved Bra'tac.

all i'll say is if sam did what mitchell did (in that battlefield), she'd be roasted over the fire (fifty fires with ppl roasting marshmellows too).

i think what mitchell did wasn't good, but we didn't see the ramifications of 'what might' have happened if things had went wrong. but as you've pointed out, everyone on the team has done stupid things at one time or another. i'm not holding this against mitchell (because we didn't see it go bad). it can be a character learning experience for him. (it'll be interesting to see how he handles any further tests on his patience)



sally

[majorsal]

I know exactly what you mean. I'm thinking, what in the heck is Mitchell doing!! And Sam and Daniel are wondering the same thing! And really Sam and Daniel are the ones that saved his butt in the end. And Teal'c too, really, because Sam could work the rings in order to get to Teal'c. I thought--what are the writers thinking here to make Mitchell out to be the lone ranger, when this is a team show!! It just seemed irresponible as others have mentioned.

... do you wonder if mitchell was a bit suicidal? i know his strong feelings of guilt were riding him, but... what do others think?




sally

[Dani347]

I also love Daniel, but when did he pick up Jack’s nervous habit (throwing a tennis ball against the wall?) Since when did Daniel bring toys (other than his books/ journals) to keep him entertained off world.

Wasn't there a scene in some early episode where he and Jack roled a ball back and forth to each other on a Goa'uld ship? I think I remember it, so him playing with a ball to relieve tension doesn't seem unprecendent, although I still wonder why he brought it. Maybe he just knows from experience that even rescue mentions have their down times and he knew getting lost in a book wouldn't be the best thing, so he took a ball that Jack left as a gift.

Am I working it too hard?

Why didn't they just zat his damn body three times and be done with it?

Oh, we all know that doesn't work anymore

[Uber]

I soooo AGREE!!! I was looking forward to this episode after last week's previews and can't say how disappointed I was too!! This doesn't help the Mitchell character at all for me. There use to be so much potential. The writers continue to write him as an opposition to the team, not as an asset. The character doesn't have the team mind set that has always driven and created the great chemistry that was SG-1. SG-1 is constantly having to get him out of trouble.

The Sam/Cam friendship and Teal’c/ Cam friendship moments were touching. Daniel and Bra'tac looking for Teal'c were good moments. I loved the fact that Teal’c had a bigger part to play in this episode! I loved seeing Bra’tac. I also love Daniel, but when did he pick up Jack’s nervous habit (throwing a tennis ball against the wall?) Since when did Daniel bring toys (other than his books/ journals) to keep him entertained off world. It was odd. I saw Jack at that moment sitting there and not Daniel.

And has the Stargate become common knowledge at some point and I just didn’t see that episode? Why would Mitchell leave the device unattended in a Hospital where doctors and nurses are constantly coming and going?

I enjoyed the Sam/Cam, Sam/Daniel, Teal'c/Cam friendship moments but they weren't enough to make this episode work.

Also of note, I thought Sam would be in this more than she was...certainly got that feel from the preview clips. But apparently most of Carter's contributions were offscreen and we heard all the stuff she was doing from others "Sam's going here/Sam's planning the rescue mission (that Mitchell compromised with his stupidity). She led the teams through the gate too and that was cool...but these positives are completely overeshadowed by the compulsive need almost to show how wonderful Mitchell is to go off and rescue Teal'c on his own.

Truth is, he should have been sidelined even more so because he was too personally affected by his friend's situation to do his job without, you know, compromising the mission/risking the lives of his teammates.

He should have taken his issues out on a heavy bag and should not have been allowed to go. Further he should be seriously reprimanded for his Rambo routine during the mission.

[ann_sgcfan]

I enjoyed the Sam/Cam, Sam/Daniel, Teal'c/Cam friendship moments but they weren't enough to make this episode work.

Also of note, I thought Sam would be in this more than she was...certainly got that feel from the preview clips. But apparently most of Carter's contributions were offscreen and we heard all the stuff she was doing from others "Sam's going here/Sam's planning the rescue mission (that Mitchell compromised with his stupidity). She led the teams through the gate too and that was cool...but these positives are completely overeshadowed by the compulsive need almost to show how wonderful Mitchell is to go off and rescue Teal'c on his own.

Truth is, he should have been sidelined even more so because he was too personally affected by his friend's situation to do his job without, you know, compromising the mission/risking the lives of his teammates.

He should have taken his issues out on a heavy bag and should not have been allowed to go. Further he should be seriously reprimanded for his Rambo routine during the mission.

I thought Sam would have been in the episode more too from the previews, but at least they were saying something about how she was involved off camera and didn't ignore her or Teal'c completely. Like I said Teal'c was more involved with this one and I enjoyed that (he rarely gets a storyline). I loved seeing Sam in charge.

Yeah I was surprised that they allowed Cam to go through the gate as well without attending the pre-mission briefing. He had no clue what he was getting into. THankfully Sam and Daniel were there to save him. (Sam and Daniel has some good moments I miss that.) Cam didn't even know how to operate the rings so not a well thought out plan on his part on many levels. The bad moments overshadowed the good.

[Dani347]

I don't recall the previews, but I thought the quality of the Sam scenes were good. She was very good in this episode. I can't think of anything off about her.

[ann_sgcfan]

I don't recall the previews, but I thought the quality of the Sam scenes were good. She was very good in this episode. I can't think of anything off about her.

I didn't see anything off with the Sam character either. I thought she had good scenes with the other three costars. I was expecting more. From the previews I was expecting an episode entirely off world like they use too (more old school). You know, Sg-1 leaves through the gate and doesn't return until their teammate was rescued. I thought Sam leads a group along with Daniel through the Stargate to search and rescue Teal'c, while Cam dealt with personal problems. So I was disappointed that they didn’t go off world as a team until the end of the episode.

[Battousai the Manslayer]

... do you wonder if mitchell was a bit suicidal? i know his strong feelings of guilt were riding him, but... what do others think?

I'm going with no. He strikes me as the type to feel that he would owe it to the people he feels guilty about to live with the guilt and shame and not take the easy way out. Or using his life to try to repay them on some level.

[Dani347]

I didn't see anything off with the Sam character either. I thought she had good scenes with the other three costars. I was expecting more. From the previews I was expecting an episode entirely off world like they use too (more old school). You know, Sg-1 leaves through the gate and doesn't return until their teammate was rescued. I thought Sam leads a group along with Daniel through the Stargate to search and rescue Teal'c, while Cam dealt with personal problems. So I was disappointed that they didn’t go off world as a team until the end of the episode.

It was probably because I had read spoilers, so I knew that there was going to be the Mitchell subplot, that it didn't surprise me.

[the dancer of spaz]

I'm with those who thought, "WTF?" when Cameron went all Rambo on those Jaffa. I don't know what that's all about, but it seemed incredibly forced, incredibly immature and ridiculous. Honestly.

I don't think TPTB mean to insult our intelligence - it just happens. Cameron could be an excellent character. But they can't seem to get past how essential it is to beat that potential down our throats, instead of showing us in a realistic manner.

And, once again, though I liked Collateral Damage, this is another moment where the team interaction is sacrificed for Cameron's character development.

Problem One: Teal'c was supposedly the center of the episode here. But why did we only hear about Teal'c getting kidnapped? Why didn't they show it? It's so much easier to tell, eh? Of course. And we saw Teal'c getting tortured a few times, but that's it... I dunno. I just feel like it was misleading. This was supposed to be Teal'c's ep. Cameron's story was (understandably) supposed to be the B plot, but it seemed to kinda overshadow everything else. I mean, at the end, during a moment when we could've had a great "Teal'c Recovers" scene with his teammates, we're dwelling on Cameron's B plot - a good story, but not exactly A Plot worthy, and certainly not enough to take away from TEAL'C'S issues.

Problem Two: Sam was clearly in charge of this mission, and again understandably so. So why did she have to practically babysit Cameron during the firefight? I'm no expert on military missions or battles or showdowns or what have you, but I'm pretty sure the leader of the mission should NOT have to do that. And the fact that she KNEW Cameron would do what he wanted, without her being able to stop him, and the fact that she's just rather resigned to that fact is disturbing. Both she and Daniel should not have to cover Cameron's butt when he decides to go on a rampage. I'm assuming it was meant as making up for his friend because he was just so darn mad, but come on. Let's be real here. How is making THE SAME MISTAKE TWICE gonna help anyone?

I won't even go into how that could possibly translate into Cameron deliberately undermining Sam's authority, because I REALLY don't think they were going that route. Really. Hoping. Bah...

Where, might I ask, is the straight-laced Lt. Colonel who graced Landry's office in "Avalon?" Where is he? Oh, you mean we left him back in "Ex Deus Machina?" Then, by all means, let's get him back, shall we?

Problem Three: At the end, Teal'c and Cameron had what could have been a nice moment, only it was REALLY meant to further glorify Cameron's foolish behavior. Yes, yes, we get it. Cameron's still soul searching, still finding his place - not only on SG-1, but also on this current plane of existence. Great. Fantastic. Can he do it a bit more inwardly, please? His sudden outbursts are getting kinda distracting.

There's no fall-out for what he did. Logically, I highly doubt that Sam or Daniel would tattle on Cameron, but it's bound to show up in the report - all 20 of them. And while I understand that Landry is rather fond of Cameron, you'd think that a by-the-books general like Landry would have issues with that.

Problem Four: The "fancy free tech at the hospital" situation. It was too blatant to mention above, and I've realized that we shouldn't have been too surprised by that move. I can just see it now. The poor bloke flatlines during a particularly heated memory that Cameron unwittingly plugged into the machine. The nurses and doctors rush in to revive the guy, to no avail.

But, of course, seeing as how this is a military hospital, they think nothing of it. Meh. It happens all the time. Let's just wrap it back up and send it to Cheyenne Mountain. No biggie.

Also, evidently, we shouldn't have been too surprised when they had Sam bring up Jacob and Pete as a way to "relate" to Cameron's plight. Because, ya know, it's all the same thing after all. Riiiiight. For all those NEW viewers out there, Sam told Jacob about the SGC because she just felt like she needed to, dang it. And Pete? Well, one day Sam got it into her head that the best way to bring some excitement to their relationship would be to tell Pete about some of her intergalactic travels. See? It's fun to rewrite history, isn't it?

All in all, what could've been a great, classic, old school team ep turned into moments where I seriously had to rewind the ep to make sure I was actually seeing what I was seeing.

And don't get me wrong: I really enjoyed the moments between Cameron and his friend. Those were good, deep moments, and were well done by both actors. MS and TA were great at getting to the bottom of the situation with the brainwashed Jaffa Council Members. I like seeing Daniel play the sleuth opposite Bratac. It's a nice change to his, uh... more cynical roles of late. And, what relatively little we saw of AT/Sam was great, too. Give Sam a P90 (or any other firearm for that matter) anyday and let her fly. Oh yeah, and let her lead a few soldiers through the Gate a few times. Trust me, you'll be happy that you did.

And CJ/Teal'c, as always, is highly underrated in my book. No one does unadulterated torture like Judge.

ON EDIT: The episode would've been better for me, had I not been solely banking on a bonafide team ep. My expectations were a bit high, so my take on this episode may be extremely tainted by my scathing disappointment.

[Dani347]

Cheyenne Mountain. No biggie.

Also, evidently, we shouldn't have been too surprised when they had Sam bring up Jacob and Pete as a way to "relate" to Cameron's plight. Because, ya know, it's all the same thing after all. Riiiiight. For all those NEW viewers out there, Sam told Jacob about the SGC because she just felt like she needed to, dang it. And Pete? Well, one day Sam got it into her head that the best way to bring some excitement to their relationship would be to tell Pete about some of her intergalactic travels. See? It's fun to rewrite history, isn't it?

For new viewers, Jacob was told because he was getting a Tok'ra, and Pete had been shot with a Goa'uld weapon. Both of which were brought up in the episode.

[the dancer of spaz]

For new viewers, Jacob was told because he was getting a Tok'ra, and Pete had been shot with a Goa'uld weapon. Both of which were brought up in the episode.

Briefly. One liners.

For new viewers, it's still putting them up there with Cameron's decision. And, Pete's, er, unwise behavior aside, it's not quite the same thing.

This was something that wasn't required for the sake of national security. The guy had hunches. Cameron still could've played coy. There's a difference between, "Oh crap, the Tok'ra aren't letting us go unless we bring back a host;" "Oh crap, this idiot followed Sam to a stakeout and got himself shot;" and "Oh crap, I'm feeling really crappy over what might have been."

[Dani347]

Not being a new viewer, I can't say completely 100% how I would react. But, I can say that I'm almost completely 100% sure that one line was all it would take to convey that there were extenuating circumstances to Sam telling. Especially the way it was written, with being Sam mentioning Jacob, Mitchell countering with why, then Sam mentioning Pete, and Mitchell countering why. Case was given, then given again. Plus, the fact that Mitchell had already wondered if he was being a hypocrite also made it seem like he wasn't willing to accept the out in his feelings Sam was trying to give him. "Look, I told two people." "Yes, but this is why that was different from what I'm doing."

Like I said, I'm not new, and I haven't talked to anyone new who viewed it, but it didn't seem obscure enough that a new viewer couldn't grasp it.

And, the whole point in my last post was that I felt they made it clear that it wasn't the same. All I think is, Sam understood his desire to tell. I don't think she would have gone into some long speech about why it was different for her. Permission had already been granted, so there was no good reason to try and talk him out of it, or go into the differences in their situations (I still think they were effectively conveyed). It wasn't that Mitchell's reasons were the same as Sam's, or that it was meant to seem that way. Just that Sam could understand that Mitchell would want to tell. And, that once permission was granted, it doesn't make you a hypocrite for doing it.

But, I'm also someone who wouldn't have minded if they kept in the whole thing in the spoilers where Sam said she didn't know if she would have told without permission. I wouldn't have felt it was terrible, especially since it didn't happen, and I think it would be natural to think after the fact, and after you did have a very good reason and permission, that just maybe a secret like that would be hard to keep.

[JayShadow]

DisposiBa'als

Just use them up and blow them away