Endgame (810)

[keshou]

I am of the opinion that the scene literally was written for RDA. There was nothing particularly 'Daniel' in the dialogue. The other possibility is that it was written for both Daniel and Jack to be present.

That's my feeling too. It just didn't seem to be very "Daniel". I thought it might have been intended for Jack's character or for Robert Picardo's character (since he mentioned at a con he might be back in season 8).

I haven't read the whole meta-discussion in this thread but for me (and I'm a Daniel fan) the interrogation scene just kind of jarred and pulled me out of the show. The same way Sam's shiny pleather jacket jarred and pulled me out of the show. The same way Jacks "do you know anyone who voted for those two shrubs?" jarred and pulled me out of that scene back in Lost City. It happens.

I think was a natural evolution for Daniel to conduct negotiations and treaties with other planets. He's their first contact expert at the SGC and has specialized knowledge of these alien cultures. If they were on another planet and Sam was captured it would seem natural for Daniel to interrogate someone on that planet about Sam's whereabouts - he's gifted at understanding and relating to other cultures whereas Jack is not.

It seemed to be a forced evolution for Daniel to be interrogating Area 51 criminal British guy - dictated by budget and actor availability. I can see Daniel being in the room - and maybe he was intended to be there to hear the revelation about his part in the deal - but it seemed a little odd otherwise. I didn't care about the offering of money. That's a small price to pay to get Sam and the gate back, plus stopping the Trust. I'd be surprised if Daniel wasn't authorized for that. I can see Jack playing that scene the same way - except he'd probably call the guy a "little weasel".

As for complaining about the Jack-Liteness, I think it comes down to one thing for me. I'm not overly attached to Jack. I don't think he's absolutely essential to the show. But what I do think is a disservice to the show, and to the fans, is that RDA doesn't seem to care about his lines when he is there. This epsiode in particular he was sleep walking through it, disconnected, and it showed. I think one reason lots of people are confused by the "touch choice" line is that he didn't really give any feeling to it.

I think RDA still gets up for the shows where his character is the focus and he gets a linear timeline to film all the scenes. He seemed connected to the changes introduced for Jack in Zero Hour. However I don't think RDA's particularly adept at filming all these little scenes out of sequence that are later inserted into numerous episodes.

But you know, I give him some leeway because RDA has continued to make this show long after he wanted to quit. He's there to help the franchise and keep a lot of other cast and crew members employed because MGM and Scifi said they wouldn't go forward without him. If he doesn't feel like putting a lot of feeling into some of his scenes and is tired of playing the role I can kind of understand.

[the adventurer]

Personaly I see Daniel as trying to fill Jack's shoes. I think it's a character thing, he's going head long into danger more often (beaming up to the Cloked ship armed for a bear). He's trying to be more of a Hardass to fill Jack's place on the team.

[Dani347]

That's my feeling too. It just didn't seem to be very "Daniel". I thought it might have been intended for Jack's character or for Robert Picardo's character (since he mentioned at a con he might be back in season 8).

How far back was this episode written?

I'd be surprised if Daniel wasn't authorized for that. I can see Jack playing that scene the same way - except he'd probably call the guy a "little weasel".

Well, I would think Daniel would have a go ahead from Jack before promising anything.

[keshou]

How far back was this episode written?

Darren had a little blurb about JM revealing an upcoming episode called "Endgame" in a May 6th article on Gateworld. So I guess it was being written about that time and then filmed prior to July when they went on hiatus.

I think this may have been mentioned somewhere back in this very long thread - but another actor that it would have seemed logical to use in that scene was Colin Cunningham - "Major Davis". He had a small role in "Zero Hour" that was kind of a waste. I always enjoy seeing Major Davis and would have rather seen him in Endgame than Zero Hour. But again, their production schedule is probably so challenging that what seems logical to me may be totally impossible in reality.

[Skydiver]

I think this may have been mentioned somewhere back in this very long thread - but another actor that it would have seemed logical to use in that scene was Colin Cunningham - "Major Davis". He had a small role in "Zero Hour" that was kind of a waste. I always enjoy seeing Major Davis and would have rather seen him in Endgame than Zero Hour. But again, their production schedule is probably so challenging that what seems logical to me may be totally impossible in reality.

yeah, cutie pie woulda worked, same with castleman, reynolds, which are two established characters.

right or wrong, it just jarred. Same as dr lee all of a sudden being an expert in botany or, as someone mentined, sam doing the post mortem on the kull warrior.

[THE BIG UNIT]

I didnt mind the scene but i agree someone else should have done the interrigation scene. I have noticed that characters, especially the Science one like Sam and Dr Lee sometimes go out of there field. As for sam doing the post mortem on the kull warrior, we learned from the season 2 episode Bane that she worked under genetesist timothy harlow for a year at the Pentagon, so she might have learned how to do that there. the main reason the main characters go out of there field is because we want to see them on the screen, not new people, and alot of fans and TPTB like the Dr Lee character, it was probably more effective from a fans point of view to watch someone we already know.

[Major Fischer]

I figured since the episode thread seems to be getting a little far from the actual episode discussion I'd start one specifically on the subject of people going outside of their fields.

The SGC Staff, or lack there of.

Personally I think it was a stretch in Bane for her to have been working for a geneticist, and that doesn't explain why she'd know how to do the work with the kull warrior.

[Chirp]

All I can say at this point of the 2 parter is this, I can't believed they brought back the team in one piece or peace (take your pick of the two words), and the gate too! Was this a real cliffhanger or not? I think this would have been good for a ending instead of a middle. But then again I'm just the audieance not the maker of the show. Was Jacob on that planet that they skip?

[Major Fischer]

All I can say at this point of the 2 parter is this, I can't believed they brought back the team in one piece or peace (take your pick of the two words), and the gate too! Was this a real cliffhanger or not? I think this would have been good for a ending instead of a middle. But then again I'm just the audieance not the maker of the show. Was Jacob on that planet that they skip?

Ah, this wasn't a two part episode, or a cliffhanger.

[Shivan]

It got what it deserved review wise- 3/4

So Major Fischer, we appreciate you tearing the episode to shreds. But it isn't necessary anymore!

[Major Fischer]

Please don't be snide. I'm not the only one who disliked the episode.

[majorsal]

spoilers for s7's evolution part one (i think)

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Personally I think it was a stretch in Bane for her to have been working for a geneticist, and that doesn't explain why she'd know how to do the work with the kull warrior.

I didn't think Sam was doing an autopsy on the kull warrior, just studying the tech and removing it. Jacob was there with her, doing the same thing. I didn't even question anything being weird until I read some others opinions on it. It 'looked' autopsy-like, but it really didn't seem like one to me.

Sally

[Major Fischer]

It 'looked' autopsy-like, but it really didn't seem like one to me.

I actually don't really have a problem with Sam as a character, or even this part. I was trying to address Sam at the same time as I was addressing the problems with the usage of Daniel in this episode mainly out of respect for the fact that other people do have a problem with Sam.

[Corgano]

When I started watching this episode, I really liked it! It was fun, there was enough action and the story was also quite interesting...until...

... until Sam, Teal'c and Daniel just descided to leave the Goauld ship!

My first reaction was my second reaction was and my third reaction was

Let me explain, why I think, that the ending of this episode was REALLY stupid:

Let's imaginate the following situation:

It's 1980. A group of rougue US agents managed to steal lots of US nukes, the only copy of the top secret launch codes for ALL US Nukes and also aquired a high tech, experimental sowjet submarine (let's call it "Osiris Ship" ).
And now they start lauching the stolen nukes at the Sowjet union, killing millions of people. The US military manages to get some operatives on board the stolen high tech sub and they manage to get the stolen US launch codes back and call in the US navy.

The operatives on board know, that there is probably only one rougue agent left on board. They also know, that there are still a lot of nukes on board. And they know, that after some time, even without the launch codes, the rougue agents will find a way to launch the rest of the nukes they have stolen, continuing a devastating nuklear war!
And finally they know, that this high tech russian submarine is very important for finding a way to defend the US against other such subs and, that this sub will escape, if they cannot stop it...


The one million $ question is:
WHAT WOULD THESE BRAVE OPERATIVES (let's call them "SG-1" ) DO?

Would they all just leave the sub, waiting for the US fleet to pick them up and letting the bad guys (who just started a nuklear war) escape with a hightech sub and the rest of the nukes?

OR

would they just send the launch codes (codename "Stargate" ) back to the US navy and try to capture, sabotage or even destroy the sub, even if it means risking their lives (a situation they already have had several times) ?

Well... though descition!

PS: The fact, that the Prometeus could start firing on Osiris ship, when it powered up the hyperdrive, also is NO reason for SG-1 to leave the ship! They could have send the gate plus Daniel back, to explain the situation, while Sam and Teal'C try to capture the ship!

PPS: I hope, you understand, what I want to tell you. Unfortunately my english is quite bad.

[YodaMate]

I quite enjoyed this episode, mostly for its ability to draw on numerous threads : shedding light on the conspiracy's newest activities (including explaining what they were up to in Affinity), the Tok'ra symbiote poison story from three years ago that had been dumped (i was jumping for joy when it was mentioned a few weeks ago), the results of Thor's meeting with the President and the ever-improving capabilities of Prometheus, the Alpha Site and Area 51 made appearances, we got to see a Tok'ra again and check in with the rebel Jaffa, as well as explain where the hell Osiris left her ship from a year ago.

(exhales heavily) whoa, that's a lot of stuff. That they were able to fit it all in, avoid a cliffhanger and keep the story moving more or less smoothly is a great effort. Like, i said, i enjoyed it.

Now let the counter-nit-picking begin !

Firstly, my major concern at the end was why didn't SG-1 take down that conspiracy woman and return triumphant with all the loot. One look at Teal'c and his staff would have made anyone surrender Then i realised the obvious, the ship was getting ready to jump to hyperspace so SG-1 would have been expecting the Prometheus to blast the ship at any moment (and it didn't only because of Jack's indecision, but more comment on that later), so it was far more prudent to get themselves and the Gate off the ship ASAP

Sam's clothes have taken more than a few knocks here, so let's address those concerns ; in the warehouse raid, contrary to some people's beliefs, Sam and Danny were wearing kevlar vests on top of their black tops. Go back and see for yourselves if you don't believe me. Perhaps they felt more comfortable in jeans and didn't bother bringing a vestful of equipment seeing as they had a goodly number of SWAT members who already had that gear.

The second, and far more controversial, outfit of Sam's is actually more useful than some think (of course, i wasn't thinking practicality at the time). Her taste in leather jackets nonwithstanding, wearing clearly non-military clothes suited the plan ; they didn't have a trap in place, they were just following the spooked scientist until he met with the target. The clearly distinguished SWATs start chasing him whilst Sam heads him off. If he glimpsed Sam whilst on the run, he would have thought "civilian in sexy jacket.. fool, focus on your pursuers" not "another SWAT, must avoid at all costs". He might have even run right past Sam and she could have given him the coat hanger treatment

Haven't read all the topic, but someone mentioned how M'zel mentioned tretonin in Death Knell. I saw that episode recently and he was actually saying how he recognised the importance of tretonin to the Jaffa's future, not stating that he was on it. That added to the suspense; when the missile went off, i found myself hoping that M'zel was on tretonin and it was very sad to see him die, really brought the Jaffa tragedy of the attacks home in a way that Sam wasn't able to in her discussions with her captors. Also, someone pointed out the apparent plot hole that the Trust have a ship but didn't nick another Gate. Actually their actions make a lot of sense ; in the past the SGC's ability to bring in alien, particularly Asgard, assitance to counter the conspiracy has helped them prevail. Though Thor's sensors couldn't see past the cloak, they can't maintain the cloak in hyperspace, where the Asgard can easily detect them. So, a) they're taking sensible precuations by staying in the solar system and b) by stealing the Earth gate (as opposed to any other gate) they have a better chance at hiding their actions from Earth and the Asgard for longer. It's as if someone on the conspiracy has finally developed a brain cell or two.

A lot of people have complained about Daniel not fulfilling a very archeological role and trying to take over from Jack. I actually liked seeing him in the role of interrogator, but technically it was Jack's call and he might have thought Danny had a better chance at securing the scientist's co-operation quickly through a 'softer' approach. Also, having Danny conduct the interviews with the tech guys was clearly a signal to them that they weren't been blamed, at least not by Jack, even if they didn't pick up on it at first. Daniel's decision to go rambo made sense : he had the best chance of hacking into the computer, deactivating the cloak and locking the bad guys out of the ship's controls (hence rectifying his error from a few weeks ago). Of course, he wasn't able to and had to revert to a very Jack-like action of blasting the cloak crystals and going after the hyperdrive himself. That he was so easily zatted will give Daniel something to think about in addition to his guilt over the hostage-translating issue.

To Jack himself, the burden of command clearly weighed down heavily. It's not just not having all the fun and having to do the paperwork. He is faced with having to approve insane plans and not been there to ensure their success. If Teal'c hadn't dialed in when he did, the plan would have failed for Jack's absence. He also has to make the hard decisions, and I like how he's struggling with it. This is another issue left open for the second half of the season. We have to live with RDA's schedule but i'll settle for less-Jack in some eps and getting powerful character issues/growth and full-on Jack in others like Zero Hour and Lockdown. Compared to the handling of Jack's absence in recent seasons, the way they're doing it in Season 8 is working quite well.

Sorry, that was a lot longer than planned. But all in all, the episode is far more technically consistent than some would believe, and left a number of issues to be resolved in the second half of the season (such as the fallout from the attacks from Baal and Jaffa-Tauri relations, Jack's command indecision, the conspiracy's next move now they finally have a ship) that i'm looking forward to.