Between Two Fires (509)

[Mr Prophet]

Why didn't they just use their spiffy new weapons to defend their world? <sigh> Silly Tollan.

Because then there wouldn't have been a plot?

If you wanted to spackle it, you could just say that Tanith had monitors in place and would have bombed the city out of existence if they'd started working on an orbital delivery system.

[Mio]

Because then there wouldn't have been a plot?

If you wanted to spackle it, you could just say that Tanith had monitors in place and would have bombed the city out of existence if they'd started working on an orbital delivery system.

'

Nah. We'll just leave it up to poor Tollan thinking. They are more advanced, they could have built a launching system capable of dodging goa'uld sensors.

[Chaka's_Mum]

I'd go with the 'poor Tollan thinking' theory. The Tollan have become so used to their technical superiority that they've grown ridiculously complacent - and Tanith and his boss (unrevealed in this ep - but we all know who it is, don't we? ) have well and truly caught them with their trousers down.

The defence grid has protected them throughout their time on Tollana, and they have relied on it so much that even the warning they got in 'Pretense' wasn't enough to shake them out of this dependency. It was always going to happen sooner or later - and there's no evidence that they've been upgrading or developing their defences to keep ahead of the Goa'uld's attempts to get around them. Despite everything, their defences worked (okay, it was only thanks to Teal'c and Lya - but why let that minor technicality get in the way?) and they carked Zipacna's mothership. What more evidence do you need that the grid still outranks the Goa'uld's shields, you cynical, inferior humans? Hmm?

Guerilla tactics are probably an entirely alien concept to them as they've not been faced with an enemy that they can't simply destroy in orbit for a very long time - possibly centuries if they had the same kind of defences on their original homeworld. The failure of the grid in itself has probably knocked them for six, and it's quite feasible to assume that it wouldn't have occurred to them to merely pretend to co-operate while they organise a resistance and start a fight-back.

[Mr Prophet]

'

Nah. We'll just leave it up to poor Tollan thinking. They are more advanced, they could have built a launching system capable of dodging goa'uld sensors.

Well, that's the thing; no they're not more advanced. They can't penetrate the new shields with ion cannons and there's a ha'tak vessel parked over your major domestic habitation. Even the Tollan would take time to build a delivery system; do you take the chance that they can't see you?

Now, I do think that there were options open to them that weren't taken, but on the other hand it isn't fair to mock people who don't think of things that SG-1 might think of, since no-one else in the SGverse is allowed to have brilliant ideas.

This is why I felt so sorry for McKay in Redemption. His whole pianist speech might as well have been saying to Sam: "It doesn't matter how brilliant I am or how hard I work, my name isn't in the credits so I'll never be as good as you are, at anything."

Arguing from within the text is a complex issue. Yes, we could put this down to Tollan sloppy thinking, but to do so we need to ignore the simple fact that if the Tollan had boxed clever, there would be no plot, no 'scary super-Goa'uld' foreshadowing, and we wouldn't have got to see how the monster works. The simple fact is that they were stuffed by the plot and no amount of cunning was going to save them, particularly if it wasn't SG-1 who thought of it.

[QuiGonJohn]

Liked the episode. Sad to see the Tollan and Narim gone though.

One thing, a possible production error. I tried to look this up online to verify before I posted, but I could not find the correct answer. It appears they used the wrong uniform hat for Major Carter at the beginning of the episode. To the best of my knowledge a Colonel and Lt. Colonel have the hats with 2 sets of clouds/lightning on each side of the brim, while Generals have 3 sets of clouds/lightning on each side of the brim. As a Major, she should have had a plain brim.

[oma_desala]

i think the tollan had good reson not to give their tech and what right do earth have to ask for it remember them and jones planet.

i think we will see more of the tollan watch the episode on dvd with subtitles when narim is talking from the long range communication device if you have subtitles on youll notice narim say SOME ESCAPED. also travel and guards were obviously escaping so obviously some survived

[Chaka's_Mum]

i think we will see more of the tollan watch the episode on dvd with subtitles when narim is talking from the long range communication device if you have subtitles on youll notice narim say SOME ESCAPED. also travel and guards were obviously escaping so obviously some survived

But, alas, it seems likely that Narim didn't.

For those who did (assuming that they did - Narim may well have seen them leave, but they might have been killed after that point. We'll never know for sure - unless TPTB let on, of course), it would be quite intriging to see how they live from now on. Will they return to the Nox for help? Will they allow themselves to create another 'techno-heaven' place like Tollana? After the spectacular failure of their defence grid, would they be so willing to place their future security and welfare in the hands of technological advancement?

Speculate...speculate...speculate...

[zats]

I doubt that they'd trade the tech for safety. Look at how stubborn they were when we first met them.

But on the other hand, they've thus destroyed two cultures with their technology, and almost Earth as well. Maybe they've learned.

[Chaka's_Mum]

That would indeed be most interesting - SG1 encountering a much reduced and (hopefully) much chastened Tollan colony.

Of course, assuming that some Tollan did indeed get away from the disaster at Tollana, they are going to find it extremely hard to get by without all that sparkling, shiny technology.

It seems quite an extraordinary concept - Technology-free Tollans...

[Perriman33]

I can't see the tollans living like tree hugging hippies but the idea is fun. Apart from narim I didn't really like them as a race from the start, so I was probably the only one going 'go goa'uld'.
I don't think the motives of the people were very well thought out when they wrote the this one, it just didn't fit in with the rest of their episodes.
I'm pretty sure they would have sent some people away to survive in case the goa'uld deal fell through. And I'm pretty sure that some will survive on the planet after the goa'uld have invaded. Though they might have to build a new stargate!

[Stricken]

Yes end of the Tollans at last, i may be alone but i couldnt stand them!!!!!!! good ep other wise

[Chaka's_Mum]

I know what you mean. Smug, patronising superiority is terribly annoying, isn't it?

Having said that, despite their superiority complex, having the Goa'uld come along and whup your butt isn't the sort of wake-up call you'd wish on a world.

[walter_MacChevron]

If TPTB are reading this............PUT A FINAL END TO THE TOLLAN!!! either by pronouncing that they are in fact wiped out or find some survivors!

[Metarock Sam]

Well from the looks of things eg Nerim being relplaced as Simon its safe to say that they were all killed by Anubis.

[Chaka's_Mum]

True. The end of the ep does give the impression that there are no survivors on Tollana.

Assuming that a few Tollan did manage to get away in ships, there'll be very few of them, and it can't be guaranteed that they'd find themselves a world to colonise that has a stargate but no resident population. They certainly won't have sufficient techno-wizardry to establish an equivalent colony to Tollana. Icky though it sounds, it's probable that any refugees would end their days in muddy poverty on some forgotten planet somewhere. Unless they went running back to the Nox again, of course...

As for anybody left on the planet, I doubt that Tanith would have left Tollana without checking to see if there were any tasty techno-goodies left in the rubble (certainly not if he's got half a brain). It's probable that any survivors would have been either slaughtered on sight or carted off as slaves/potential jaffa/potential hosts anyway.

I'd reckon it's a pretty safe bet that we won't be meeting any more Tollans.