Talion (1017)

[Madeleine]

Wow, Teal'c really gave Cam a thrashing. I can't imagine him doing that to Jack, Daniel, Sam or Vala.

Same here, though perhaps for different reasons. I don't think he'd have *needed* to thrash Daniel or Sam or Vala in order to get them out of his way. Rather like you or I could surely immobilise a violent six-year-old quickly and without hurting them, but if a large twelve-year-old were to physically threaten us we might need to be tough in return and it might take rather longer to restrain them. (I speak from experience as a former special needs teacher....)

Cam's Sodan stuff was useful enough only to ensure that Teal'c had to beat him up; without it Cam would have been as easy to subdue as I expect the others would have been.

[scarimor]

Same here, though perhaps for different reasons. I don't think he'd have *needed* to thrash Daniel or Sam or Vala in order to get them out of his way. Rather like you or I could surely immobilise a violent six-year-old quickly and without hurting them, but if a large twelve-year-old were to physically threaten us we might need to be tough in return and it might take rather longer to restrain them. (I speak from experience as a former special needs teacher....)

Cam's Sodan stuff was useful enough only to ensure that Teal'c had to beat him up; without it Cam would have been as easy to subdue as I expect the others would have been.

You have a point, and on the who would win issue alone it may well account for Daniel (and might have accounted for Jack O'Neill). However I think there's another issue re. the women. Sam and Vala - especially Sam - are trained to fight, and moreover they are women who are trained to fighted mostly against male antagonists, and have more experience fighting against men than against fellow females. Women in that position don't try to fight men on the same terms that men do. They learn to use their opponent's greater size and weight against them. They learn to maximise the advantages of being smaller and lighter. They learn different techniques because they have to.

Cam tried to fight Teal'c man-to-man. He tried to match him to beat him. And he couldn't, because Teal'c is physically bigger and stronger. Sam, for example, wouldn't have even gone down that route. Almost all the male opponents she faces are bigger and stronger than her. E.g. she doesn't try to go upper-body-strength v. upper-body-strength, because she knows it's a non-starter. She wouldn't have tried to punch Teal'c in the way that we saw Cam doing to such little effect. She would have gone for other techniques.

I think the chances are strong that Teal'c would have beaten Sam if it came down to it, but I don't believe it's as simple as who would win anyway. I don't think Sam, Daniel, Jack or Vala would have put Teal'c in the position where he had to beat the crap out of them. Unlike Cam, by themselves I doubt they would obey the "stop him at all costs" which Landry ordered. Sam's and Daniel's history with Teal'c (and Jack's - that's why I mentioned him before) would make them find another route; perhaps even join him. And as for Vala - well no way would she go against Teal'c off her own bat just because the general ordered it. Similarly, I can't imagine Teal'c giving any of them the pasting that he was prepared to give Cameron.

I think it highlighted Cameron's position as somewhat isolated.

[Madeleine]

I suspect that Jack would have gone the same way as Cam. Vala, you're right, would have declined to fight (I can just see her looking at me with a "fight HIM? Mads, are you insane?" expression on it at the very idea). Sam might have come up with some sort of plan, though it'd have had to be good to take Teal'c in. And Daniel would have stood there and said to Teal'c, "look, we both know you aren't going to hit me, so -"
... before a punch to the chin knocked him out

[Zelda]

Wow, Teal'c really gave Cam a thrashing. I can't imagine him doing that to Jack, Daniel, Sam or Vala.

Hmm.

Now I'm reminded how much alt-Teal'c enjoyed beating on Cam in Ripple Effect. And how Teal'c didn't mind if he hit Cam in Arthur's Mantle.

This show is always so painfully predictable. It's been a running gag that Teal'c beats up on Mitchell. I guess it's beyond the writers imagining to come up with something original and compelling like Teal'c knocks Daniel unconscious -- just for purely dramatic effect.

If Mitchell had done the reasonable thing like drop Teal'c with a zat blast, well, then we would all have missed the ensuing moments of manly fisticuffs and the even more compelling moments of the stick fighting.

All of that aside, at what point did Teal'c make the leap from invincible to immortal? Without even a tape worm to fall back on? Teal'c is so severly injured in the bombing incident that he spends some time in hospital and then leaves to seek revenge. The fight with Mitchell has no effect (so much for the "legendary" Sodan fighting technique -- which meant, of course, that the premise of that episode was total balogna). And then, Teal'c takes not one but two blasts from a staff weapon that leave noticeable large black holes in his armor, and proceeds to get skewered clean through his body with a sword of unusual size whereupon he just pulls the blade from his body, gets up, walks over to the chief villain and proceeds to skewer him in a frenzy of tit-for-tat. And Teal'c lives to fight another day? hmmm. OK.

There were a couple of things I liked about the episode --

That some of the Jaffa societies recently freed from one oppressor opted to accept another. I liked that as a political denouement.

Teal'c being poked with the morality stick -- anonymous villain #2 -- I won't help you; you enslaved my people for generations. Anonymous villain (apparently a resident of the British part of Jaffa land) -- you bombed my village and murdered my family. But Teal'c pressed on anyway -- I mean his need for revenge was apparently stronger then those of his victims. Right.

[scarimor]

This show is always so painfully predictable. It's been a running gag that Teal'c beats up on Mitchell. I guess it's beyond the writers imagining to come up with something original and compelling like Teal'c knocks Daniel unconscious -- just for purely dramatic effect.

Cameron is in serious danger of becoming the butt of all physical jokes. I think we're already there. It's not just violence - it somehow wouldn't have been so.. er... acceptable funny and amusing? ... if the team had found Sam handcuffed to a bed without her pants in Memento Mori. Attractive, certainly, but within the comfort zone?

Smacking Cam around or losing his clothing (it happened in Ripple Effect too) is getting a bit obvious.

[Zelda]

Cameron is in serious danger of becoming the butt of all physical jokes. I think we're already there. It's not just violence - it somehow wouldn't have been so.. er... acceptable funny and amusing? ... if the team had found Sam handcuffed to a bed without her pants in Memento Mori. Attractive, certainly, but within the comfort zone?

Smacking Cam around or losing his clothing (it happened in Ripple Effect too) is getting a bit obvious.

Yeah, it is a theme, kind of like Teal'c being tortured every 3rd or 4th episode.

erm, well, no matter -- the series has semi-died and gone to limbo.

Why? Do you think anyone would infer there was something sexual going on between Sam and Vala? And, if they did, who cares? In another storyline, Daniel got to kiss both Adria and her mother -- which is a bit more outre.

Cam without is clothes always makes an episode worth watching, even when nothing else does. IMO.

That would have been a complete hoot if Sam had indeed

Spoiler:

popped those wheelies, gotten shot and tied to a bed

in her underwear (Momento Mori)! If I remember right, Sam was wearing a pink lace bra in Rodney's fantasy -- and she looked mighty fine! Let's face it, both Sam and Cam look great in just their underwear. And, so does Vala, come to think of it. Maybe the writers can build one of the movies around a circumstance that we get to see all the cast in their underwear all at the same time. hmm Is it the first or second movie that

Spoiler:

has the team marooned onboard a ship while trapped in a time-dilation field for 50 years

? Now, that situation presents plenty of possibilites for underwear. Unfortunately, Sam is probably wearing military issue given the circumstance -- nuts! Oh well, throw lots of sweat on all of the cast and I'll be happy.

Anyway since we've segued off topic to other episode highlights -- I am grateful that the name of Cam's high school crush was not Pam. I was shocked -- Ami doesn't rhyme with Cam, Sam, or Lam. What are they thinking?

[Mandysg1]

Cameron is in serious danger of becoming the butt of all physical jokes. I think we're already there. It's not just violence - it somehow wouldn't have been so.. er... acceptable funny and amusing? ... if the team had found Sam handcuffed to a bed without her pants in Memento Mori. Attractive, certainly, but within the comfort zone?

Smacking Cam around or losing his clothing (it happened in Ripple Effect too) is getting a bit obvious.

Hate to say it scari, but I think he already is iirc every time he uses his Sodan fighting skills, he loses...you'd think maybe he'd give up on that by now. I also think Cam's problem is he rushes into situations "gung ho" without thinking. I think both Sam and Daniel would use their years of friendship to try and talk to Teal'c, instead of going on the "attack first, ask questions later" route. They may not have been successful, but then niether was Cam in his approach.

[Zelda]

Hate to say it scari, but I think he already is iirc every time he uses his Sodan fighting skills, he loses...you'd think maybe he'd give up on that by now. I also think Cam's problem is he rushes into situations "gung ho" without thinking. I think both Sam and Daniel would use their years of friendship to try and talk to Teal'c, instead of going on the "attack first, ask questions later" route. They may not have been successful, but then niether was Cam in his approach.

As it turns out, the Sodan episode(s) were rather pointless, except for the cloaking device leading to other episodes. Mitchell took down the Sodan warrior before the "lessons" anyway.

Hmmn. That's an interesting thought. What I remember is the "team" being under orders to retrieve Teal'c at any cost. Weren't they all deployed in the hope of trapping Teal'c and disabling him? As far as I could tell, Teal'c wasn't interested in "talking" to his dear, long-time "friends" since he took the opportunity to use an alien device that knocked Sam, Daniel, and Vala unconscious -- maybe that's not what happened and I'm misremembering??? Or not. Mitchell got the drop on Teal'c, but, the writers like the Teal'c-mops-floor-with-Mitchell concept so well, they rarely pass an opportunity to use it. And, from what I've read, Gatefans just love it! Squeee! And, everyone knows, manly fisticuffs trump "talking" every time.

Where exactly in this episode did Mitchell rush in, go "gung ho" and not think about what he was doing?

[scarimor]

Yeah, it is a theme, kind of like Teal'c being tortured every 3rd or 4th episode.

Indeed

Why? Do you think anyone would infer there was something sexual going on between Sam and Vala?

Ooh, that wasn't what I was getting at, but now that you mention it...

What I meant was that the "comfort zone" of acceptable physical humour butt seems very relaxed for Cameron, whereas I don't think the writers (hey, perhaps their "masters" in advertising) would want to risk it against the other characters, especially the women. I think the reason Teal'c ends up as the (non-comedy) torture punch bag can be found in this area as well. It's about gender/physique perspectives in popular culture.

And, if they did, who cares? In another storyline, Daniel got to kiss both Adria and her mother -- which is a bit more outre.

Uh-huh.

For a long time, Star Trek thought nothing of having humans having sex with aliens, provided those aliens were of the opposite sex, yet shied away from same-sex kissing. But the weirdness of xenobiology ought to have been a bigger hot potato than anything. It took them a long time to venture into America's dangerous homosexuality territory. Again - perspectives.

Cam without is clothes always makes an episode worth watching, even when nothing else does. IMO.

It certainly helps

That would have been a complete hoot if Sam had indeed

Spoiler:

popped those wheelies, gotten shot and tied to a bed

in her underwear (Momento Mori)! If I remember right, Sam was wearing a pink lace bra in Rodney's fantasy -- and she looked mighty fine! Let's face it, both Sam and Cam look great in just their underwear. And, so does Vala, come to think of it. Maybe the writers can build one of the movies around a circumstance that we get to see all the cast in their underwear all at the same time. hmm Is it the first or second movie that

Spoiler:

has the team marooned onboard a ship while trapped in a time-dilation field for 50 years

? Now, that situation presents plenty of possibilites for underwear. Unfortunately, Sam is probably wearing military issue given the circumstance -- nuts! Oh well, throw lots of sweat on all of the cast and I'll be happy.

We can dream

Anyway since we've segued off topic to other episode highlights -- I am grateful that the name of Cam's high school crush was not Pam. I was shocked -- Ami doesn't rhyme with Cam, Sam, or Lam. What are they thinking?

LOL!

Hate to say it scari, but I think he already is iirc every time he uses his Sodan fighting skills, he loses...you'd think maybe he'd give up on that by now.

He didn't just lose, he was humiliated It was such a one-sided fight. You know, there are a lot of actors used to the heroic "alpha male" role who would not be willing to participate in that way. Their egos would get in the way. BB deserves a lot of credit.

[Gwin]

Hmmn. That's an interesting thought. What I remember is the "team" being under orders to retrieve Teal'c at any cost. Weren't they all deployed in the hope of trapping Teal'c and disabling him? As far as I could tell, Teal'c wasn't interested in "talking" to his dear, long-time "friends" since he took the opportunity to use an alien device that knocked Sam, Daniel, and Vala unconscious -- maybe that's not what happened and I'm misremembering??? Or not.
[...]
Where exactly in this episode did Mitchell rush in, go "gung ho" and not think about what he was doing?

Thank you

He didn't just lose, he was humiliated

Since Teal'c usually needs only one punsh to struck down an enemy, Mitchell gave him a pretty good fight. I mean, Teal'c has more than just a few years more practical training than Mitchell.

My only problem with the scene is that there was no scene after it with Teal'c and Mitchell. It was a lost opportunity and I dare not to hope that it'll be mentioned ever again.

[OrangeShipper]

I wasn't sure about this ep... To be honest, I've never been a great fan of Jaffa episodes. I don't know why, I just find them generally boring.. I'm sorry!!

There were some lovely moments (esp the end) with Tea'lc and Bra'tac. That was nice.

It kinda struck me as odd that Tea'lc was so "gung-ho", if that's the right term.. I don't know, it just didn't seem like him to leave, cut all ties with Earth and SG-1 just for a personal thing. I mean... Loads of Jaffa have been senselessly murdered before.. I know it was a terrorist thing at a peaceful summit, but still. and punching up Cam, I'm sure that was unnecessary!
Also, I have to say, I'm kinda fed up with T being tortured all the time now.. It's kinda getting old.. And as awesomely indestructible as he is, I did think the sword in the gut was a bit much.

I LOVED the "I am leaving. You are about to explode" bit!!!

Heehee. It was an ok episode... Just didn't cater for my preferences, that's all!

[teal'c2006]

I loved the episode, it was very well written..

[Andy1]

Ah, back to Teal'c's good old darkside. Most of the time he's a gentle giant but when his own people are threatened he turns incredibly brutal, I don't think I've ever seen him this crazy. Many people find the 'you are about to explode' line funny. Not me! I found it deeply disturbing more than anything else. Good episode though.

Also it's nice for Teal'c to get some proper acting in again. Too often he's left to make the occasional joke while spending the rest of the time getting tortured and saying 'indeed'. I know he got beaten up bad again in this episode (in fact he spent two periods of recovery in an infirmary bed in just this one episode!), but still he won in the end and played his part very well.

As much as I like all these storylines we really need to get right back to the Ori, not just mentioning them a little bit here and there. Don't think it's coming in the next episode according to the episode information on Sky TV Guide . Personally, I want another space battle, I know the Ori seem to kick butt every time when it comes to space combat but it does make for great viewing .

[Naonak]

Damn. I think I would actually choose to meet an angry Jack Bauer in a dark alley, given a choice between him and angry Teal'c.

Another great episode. The show is really going out with a bang. Just like that guy with a bomb in his gut...

[Gwin]

Now I'm reminded how much alt-Teal'c enjoyed beating on Cam in Ripple Effect.

If Teal'c would have beaten up alt-Cam and say that he gratified it..well, that would be another story, but since it was alt-Teal'c. And after rewatching Ripple Effect I don't wonder why alt-Teal'c doesn't lik alt-Cam. Ostensibley they seem very similar, but alt-Cam was more...hm, its very hard to describe (especially in a foreign language), but he had a way to say things with a sort of grim undertone that Cam would never use in this situations.

The scene in Arthur's Mantle..hm, I guess it was his way to tell Mitchell that he has to focus. Since Teal'c was about to search for a foe it was not the best time for a little chat.