The Cam and Vala discussion thread

[DEM]

Because they were (all of them) citizens of the US and therefore liable to prosecution under US law. As you might have noticed from both Chain Reaction (Maybourne) and Shades of Grey and The Sentinel (Maybourne's men), they weren't charged with theft, which is what they did, they were charged with treason.

I'm betting the federal prosecuter wasn't that stupid that s/he charged them only with treason (one of the rarest of rares convictions) but not with any of the other applicable lesser offences.

Also, frankly, I'm not sure what Israeli law has to do with the US's handling of Vala. The only hypothetical here is the nature of the consequences.

[AGateFan]

So, what you are saying is that Vala can come to earth and do what she likes but she is not a citizen so she cannot be held responsible or imprissoned.

Vala willfully stole from the people of earth. Then she came to earth and again attempted theft and kidnapping and willfully put a device on earth persons arm that she knew would kill him if he didnt do what she said. '

You are saying in neither case she can be prosecuted for her crime. So why doesnt every non earth criminal come on down to earth and do what they like as they are not citizens, they are aliens and we have no laws that cover them.

[Pitry]

I wouldn't call keeping people enslaved for four years "short lived". As I'm sure most people wouldn't wave away keeping an innocent person in prison for four years with "Well, it was only four years."

Dunno if the person referring to it as short lived remembered it was four years. I don't recall I referred to it as "short lived".

I would also expect anyone to have broken the laws of the USA (on US soil) to be tried by the laws of the USA. It really doesn't matter where Vala is from.

Not completely true. As I mentioned, in countries htat have agreements with the US, teh offending citizens would be deported back to their countries to stand on trial. Citizens of coutnries where such agreements do not exist would stand on trial in the US.
The point was that they would stand on civilian trial. You cannot put Vala on a civilian trial because people would ask "okay, where is she from". Once you say she's alien and that she';s accused of stealing a spaceships... well. To remind you, back in Enigma their excuse to havign Daniel help the Tollans was that he can't bhe tried for his actions because no civilian law covers it.
Your other option is a military courtmartial. For this you need special jurisdiction. For example, in the (so very screwed up) system in Israel, Palestinians from the West Bank and gaza strip who are suspected as terrorists are put on courtmartial, that is, military court, rather than uner civilian law. That is sunctioned by the martial law jurisdiction of the West Bank and Gaza strip. However, the same Palestinians suspected of terrorism who live, for example, in Jerusalem, stand on trial in a civilian court.

As far as I understand American law, ther eis no parallel within the US. Vala cannot be tried under either civilian law or martial law.

[DEM]

Now go back to Shades of Grey, Chain Reaction and The Sentinel. These people were tried adn convicted for treason, not theft, even tho what they actually did was theft - there is no law in the US that covers theft from aliens, so they can't put them on a regular trial for theft. This is why they used treason.

You're telling me we have a law that covers collusion with alien enemies?! Oh man, I am in such deep doodoo.

[smurf]

Don't recall I ever said that.
If I were to be arrested in the US for theft, I would be deported back to Israel, wehre I would stand trial and sit in prison, if so ends the verdict, in Israel. If I were to commit theft in India, for example, I would go through the same on India, not Israel.
However, if I were to be caught in the US passing US' governemnt secrets to another government, I would be considered a spy, not a traitor, which is what would happen had I been a US citizen caught in doing that. See the disctincion?
Now go back to Shades of Grey, Chain Reaction and The Sentinel. These people were tried adn convicted for treason, not theft, even tho what they actually did was theft - there is no law in the US that covers theft from aliens, so they can't put them on a regular trial for theft. This is why they used treason.
Vala is an alien, that is, she cannot be put on trial in the US, because she has no citizenship anywhere on Earth. This is why you allegory breaks.

Actually, I believe you would stand trial in the US, and serve your sentence, THEN be deported.
I'm sure most states (as in countries) would pitch a fit if they aren't allowed to enforce their own laws. I very much doubt that if any one from the US committed a crime in Israel they'd be shoved on the first plane home without justice applied on behalf of the Israeli citizen.
The simple reason why they would enforce their own laws first is because you can't rely on another state to do the right thing on your behalf.

[Pitry]

I'm betting the federal prosecuter wasn't that stupid that s/he charged them only with treason (one of the rarest of rares convictions) but not with any of the other applicable lesser offences.

Also, frankly, I'm not sure what Israeli law has to do with the US's handling of Vala. The only hypothetical here is the nature of the consequences.

Could be. However, canon is canon, and canon says treason. Furthermore, both Maybourne and what's his name in the Sentinel are on death row, which would suggest treason.
As for ISRaeli law, that was an example. No, it doesn't apply to Vala.

[QUOTE=AGateFan;6126475]So, what you are saying is that Vala can come to earth and do what she likes but she is not a citizen so she cannot be held responsible or imprissoned.[/quote[

No, she can be held respnosible. She can be shown politely - or not - the Stargate and be kicked out of the planet. Or, they can break the law and imprison her without trial. Guatanamo comes to mind. But no, there is no way to hold her repsonsible in a court of law. Which is the pioint |I've been trying to make for the past 30 mintues or so about your original claim of "why don't they put Vala in jail". Answer: even if they wanted to, they can't.

Vala willfully stole from the people of earth. Then she came to earth and again attempted theft and kidnapping and willfully put a device on earth persons arm that she knew would kill him if he didnt do what she said. '

You are saying in neither case she can be prosecuted for her crime. So why doesnt every non earth criminal come on down to earth and do what they like as they are not citizens, they are aliens and we have no laws that cover them.

Because they woudl, at the end of the day, be shown the door. The question isn't "why don't they put Vala in jail", it's "why do they let her stay on Earth", adn the answer to that has been adequtly answered in Flesh and Blood and Morpheus, IMO - they acknowledge that they might need her.

[AGateFan]

So again, based on that theory there is nothing to stop every single alien criminal from coming to earth and exploiting our people because there is not one dam thing we can do about it.

[AGateFan]

If I was a criminal and the only consequence is to be kicked off the planet I would keep coming back again and again and again and again. I would also likely kill anyone that turned me in since the only pentalty if I get caught is to be kicked off again. After I kill enough people I am sure no one else would turn me in, so then I would just sit back and do whatever the heck I pleased since absolutly nothing would happen to me. Again, great message to be sending to the galaxy.

[Pitry]

You're telling me we have a law that covers collusion with alien enemies?! Oh man, I am in such deep doodoo.

Yup that's exactly whgat I'm saying! *rolls eyes*
I'm saying that they intentionally disobeyed their orders from their comamnding officers in the USAF and ignored both uSAF agenda and code and harmed the US and its relations with its allies in the process of doing so, and apaprently those who researched US lawbook came out that that's enough to consider them traitors.

Actually, I believe you would stand trial in the US, and serve your sentence, THEN be deported.

I think ti depends on the offence, because I'm pretty sure that on some instences I would serve my time in jail in Israel, rather than the US. General impression from newspapers and such.

I'm sure most states (as in countries) would pitch a fit if they aren't allowed to enforce their own laws. I very much doubt that if any one from the US committed a crime in Israel they'd be shoved on the first plane home without justice applied on behalf of the Israeli citizen.
The simple reason why they would enforce their own laws first is because you can't rely on another state to do the right thing on your behalf.

However, these agreements do exist. I don't have neither the power of will, patience nor the time to go adn actualyl check it out, but there are agreements on the subjects, I'm pretty sure. These are of course exclusive agreemetns between two countries, each deciding whether they want this to be the case with a specific country or not.

[Pitry]

So again, based on that theory there is nothing to stop every single alien criminal from coming to earth and exploiting our people because there is not one dam thing we can do about it.

... til the SGC gets tired of you adn shoots you down with your cargo ship and you die, yes.

I suspect you're suffering frmo the "co mon human belief that the Earth is the centre of the universe". Between so many disorganised planets that are recovering frmo the demise of the Goa'uld, why come to one of the strongest planets around?

[ACharmedAsgard]

Once someone did something wrong a certain amount of times or the crime was of a certain level, Then the Earth forces would do something about it.

The is a possiblity we are using Vala for her talents.

[smurf]

I think ti depends on the offence, because I'm pretty sure that on some instences I would serve my time in jail in Israel, rather than the US. General impression from newspapers and such.



However, these agreements do exist. I don't have neither the power of will, patience nor the time to go adn actualyl check it out, but there are agreements on the subjects, I'm pretty sure. These are of course exclusive agreemetns between two countries, each deciding whether they want this to be the case with a specific country or not.

But you would be tried and sentenced under US law then deported. You are still subject to US law, whether or not Israel then decides to let you go a-robbing after you get deported back is neither here nor there.
As you state it depends on the agreements, so without any agreement these "foreigners" are completely subject to the law of the country they committed the crime against.

[AGateFan]

I am "co mon human belief that the Earth is the centre of the universe". Really? Why would you think that consisdering I am of the opinion that if an earth person went to Herberan and commited a crime and was caught by their authorities that they should be imprissioned on Herberon. I think it the Tollans or Asgard asked us to turn over the NID guys I think we should and that they should be punished by those governments. And I am betting if those NID guys didnt go back through the gate and the Asgard did get a hold of them that they would have been justly punished.

I think each planet, earth or otherwise, has the right to enforce and prosecute their laws. Now I may not agree with the laws and I may suggest SG1 or whoever escape from certain planets where the law would have them imprissoned for say existin and as long as earth doesnt have an extradition treaty with that planet I dont think they should be sent back. However, if SG1 or whoever violates a law of a planet that earth does have an extradition treaty with and that planet wanted them turned back over then I say they have to do it.

In this case vala commited one crime against earth offworld and another while on earth. Earth should have the right to prosecute her for both if they happen to catch her. Maybe they cant go to another planet to capture her (depending on the law there) but seeing as she is sitting on our planet right now we should have the right to hold her repsonsible. Instead we are excusing her behavior thus enabling her and encouraging her to commit further crimes in the future. What exactly will SG-1 do when they find out that during one of their missions, she happened to swipe some valuable piece of art or jewelry. Darn that scamp, laugh it off and give it back? You think the people she stole from wont care? They wont want her punished?

[smurf]

Hold on, didn't Teal'c get arrested and tried on another planet in an episode in the first season?

[LaCroix]

Hold on, didn't Teal'c get arrested and tried on another planet in an episode in the first season?

Yes he did. It was called Cor-ai. No intervention from the US government about the crimes he commited while in the servie of his God.