The Cam and Vala discussion thread

[Nolamom]

Or people like me that don't love Mitchell but prefer his characterization this Season over last, really like Vala didn't like Season 9 at all but are appreciating Season 10?

Hey, that's a pretty good summarization. I'll take an order of that with a side of "team" interaction and a heavy helping of good scripts please.

[Danner]

However, the hubris of this writing staff is laughable. Their confidence in thier own greatness and super specialness is something you'd often shake you head at and go 'wha?????'

I'm glad they're confident in thier own work. However there are times when it would benefit anyone to take a step back and take a critical look at how they're doing stuff.

these writers couldn't/wouldn't do that and teh show has suffered.

Exactly! This is a well that a number of writers fall into, after a reasonable run of success of a series, they begin to believe that they are infallible and that all their ideas are works of priceless art... something to be admired and desired by all who view, when in fact a reasonable portion of their contributions end up being disrespectful of earlier works, counter-productive in relation to the original premise (and the reason we all tuned in, in the first place), and in some cases to even contradict earlier canon, characters often takes a buffeting, and plotlines become shallow with gaping great plotholes, It's all pretty sloppy stuff, and it's even worse when the writers view any sort of criticism as a deep, personal affront and refuse to see any merit at all in what is being discussed by the fandom in general.

One would think they would be interested in knowing where the fans believe they are falling short of reasonable expectations.

I personally am in favour of a certain level of new direction, particularly in an old series that may be getting a little tired and worn, but changes were being made early on in this series, long before it started to show signs of age, and long before the old ideas had been decently and thoroughly explored.

I ended up with the general impression that they wanted 'out with the old and in with the new' but expected people to stay with and enjoy something that was no longer what they were looking for.

I've been wondering myself if the show might not have been given a new lease of life if someone familiar had 'stepped into Jack's shoes' and then had Cameron and Vala brought in as recurring characters. A return to that 'team' feel which many of us love, may have been possible if someone like Lou Ferretti had joined SG1 instead of bringing in an unknown to lead the veterans into territory unknown. *shrugs* Just a thought anyway.

[Agent_Dark]

And since I was able to say, on this board, how dire I thought Grace, Gemini and various other s6-8 Samcentric eps were without a single soul attacking me for my anti-s6/7/8-Sam stance,

Oh? I can fix that for you if you want

omfg Madeleine_W, wtf are you smoking. You stupid fool, only an idiot would hate those episodes. Seriously, gtfo of my forum if you're gonna say that crap

Sam is the best ever. The end.

PS, Vala/Cam didnt kill Stargate. It was a number of buisness issues and production issues, one of which was the general downturn in quality in writing. Simply put, the stories/characters weren't written good enough anymore.

[smurf]

<snip>
I ended up with the general impression that they wanted 'out with the old and in with the new' but expected people to stay with and enjoy something that was no longer what they were looking for.

I've been wondering myself if the show might not have been given a new lease of life if someone familiar had 'stepped into Jack's shoes' and then had Cameron and Vala brought in as recurring characters. A return to that 'team' feel which many of us love, may have been possible if someone like Lou Ferretti had joined SG1 instead of bringing in an unknown to lead the veterans into territory unknown. *shrugs* Just a thought anyway.

I don't think it is necessary for the writers to have brought in a character we were already familiar with. More that whichever character they decided on should fit the established universe rather than the universe warping to fit him.
If the universe changes to accomodate the character it means that not only are we having to learn about the new character, all the elements we already knew become "new" as well. A lot of unnecessary change (IMO) for what is being sold as the same product.

The only other thought about using a familiar character is that it is likely the writers would make the character do exactly the same not very clever things as Mitchell has done.
Without the writers taking a long hard look at what they are writing I think there is every chance any character (possibly except the more developed previous regulars of Hammond and Jonas) would look bad.

[Skydiver]

I've been wondering myself if the show might not have been given a new lease of life if someone familiar had 'stepped into Jack's shoes' and then had Cameron and Vala brought in as recurring characters. A return to that 'team' feel which many of us love, may have been possible if someone like Lou Ferretti had joined SG1 instead of bringing in an unknown to lead the veterans into territory unknown. *shrugs* Just a thought anyway.

all shows need tweakage. I agree that someone needed to fill jack's shoes. and there were other possibilities

colonel dixon. he was a good, down to earth, snarky character that had a quirk that i found interesting, balancing the sgc with a wife and four kids.

major mitchell joining the team, and leading it. then having to step down when colonel carter returned and a chunk of s9 could have been the two of htem working out command issues. she's got more experience over all, but he has more about the ori. sam left for whatever reason and has some confidence issues, daniel and tela'c trust her...but is their friendship clouding their judgement?

Personally? given the brouhaha over daniels departure in s6 and then rda cutting back his time, i don't think they ever should have gotten rid of jonas. jonas, daniel, sam and teal'c could have existed just fine and it would have eased jack's absence a bit since they could easily be paired up 2 and 2 instead of 2 and 1 with guest star of the week

[esoap524]

Et Tartuffe?

Et Tartuffe?

Et Tartuffe!

Quel homme!

duuuude....



He was a caricature, wasn't he? Don't make me go back and read it.

[majorsal]

I've finally caught up with all the responses to this thread and would like to post my own perspective on this matter.

(snipped)

Anyway, that's my opinion re: why the show finally died. If you're still with me, thanks for reading.

BRAVO! BRAVO!






sally

[majorsal]

I've been wondering myself if the show might not have been given a new lease of life if someone familiar had 'stepped into Jack's shoes' and then had Cameron and Vala brought in as recurring characters. A return to that 'team' feel which many of us love, may have been possible if someone like Lou Ferretti had joined SG1 instead of bringing in an unknown to lead the veterans into territory unknown. *shrugs* Just a thought anyway.

*nods*

or if they brought in a new character, how about someone older and even more experienced than sam, daniel, and teal'c? (i totally agree with the mitchell-vala as recurring characters thinger)




sally

[Danner]

I don't think it is necessary for the writers to have brought in a character we were already familiar with. More that whichever character they decided on should fit the established universe rather than the universe warping to fit him.

Very true. Don't get me wrong, I also believe that Cameron would have fit nicely had TPTB gone about his introduction and integration in a more subtle manner. I like BB and believe that had he come into the show in earlier times, when the writing was so much better, there wouldn't be any of this controversy over his character that appears to be present in the now. I guess I was just pondering the possibilities with a character already known and liked, someone who could have slotted in without needing a backstory.

The only other thought about using a familiar character is that it is likely the writers would make the character do exactly the same not very clever things as Mitchell has done.

I'm not so sure about that, Lou is an established character within the SG structure, he wouldn't be prone to the same uncertainties and needs to prove himself that a new character would have been. As a veteran himself, the writing would have probably been different for him.

Without the writers taking a long hard look at what they are writing I think there is every chance any character (possibly except the more developed previous regulars of Hammond and Jonas) would look bad.

I agree. The writing is a big reason why things didn't pan out smoothly for the new characters. I don't know if lousy writing would have been any better for Hammond or Jonas though. I've often snarled at things I don't like. or don't think rings true, even with the regular four and this includes Daniel, who is a firm favourite of mine.

major mitchell joining the team, and leading it. then having to step down when colonel carter returned and a chunk of s9 could have been the two of htem working out command issues. she's got more experience over all, but he has more about the ori. sam left for whatever reason and has some confidence issues, daniel and tela'c trust her...but is their friendship clouding their judgement?

Definitely, this would have played out very well in my mind, particularly if you look at the other factor of Sam also being very important in the field of astrophysics and therefore needs to divide her time between her duties as a soldier and her duties as a scientist. Daniel and Teal'c possibly being guided by their feelings would make alot of sense and provide some extra tension... as we saw with Daniel back when Makepiece got command of SG1 in "Shades of Grey"

Personally? given the brouhaha over daniels departure in s6 and then rda cutting back his time, i don't think they ever should have gotten rid of jonas. jonas, daniel, sam and teal'c could have existed just fine and it would have eased jack's absence a bit since they could easily be paired up 2 and 2 instead of 2 and 1 with guest star of the week

To quote Teal'c - "Indeed"

I was one of the many DJ fans who was thoroughly disgusted with the PTB in letting such a wonderful character go, however; my disgust never really extended towards Jonas as such, just wasn't personally interested in a Stargate show without Daniel and all that he represented for me. I thoroughly enjoyed watching their interaction in the first two episodes of S7 and actually wanted to see more, so I personally would have enjoyed his continued presence on the show, however; I do wonder at the viability of having two characters working in very similar fields on the same team... not sure how that would have worked out.

But as you pointed out, it would have been so much better than the three of them with the run of guest stars... we had already been losing the sense of team before this and this did not help one iota.


[Qoote=majorsal]BRAVO! BRAVO! [/quote]

Thank-you.

[Mitchell82]

*nods*

or if they brought in a new character, how about someone older and even more experienced than sam, daniel, and teal'c? (i totally agree with the mitchell-vala as recurring characters thinger)




sally

I must still say that this Mitchell/Vala thing is getting repetitive. We all have opinions and i have nothing wrong with expresing them. It just seems that we are all saying the same thing 1000 diferent times in a 1000 different ways. I have always found Mitchell and Vala very good characters and great aditions to the show. That of course is just my humble opinion. I know alot of you like this season better but still don't care much for Mitchell and Vala. I just want to say that we wouldnt have a 10th season without Mitchell and Vala IMHO.

[Skydiver]

I just want to say that we wouldnt have a 10th season without Mitchell and Vala IMHO.

very true. However, if it wasn't for sam, daniel and teal'c, vala and cam wouldn't exist anywhere but coop's imagination and all the farscape fans would have nothing but 4 seasons of dvd's and one mini-series to enjoy


and when you are told that thier 8 years of hard work is little more than crud before the oh so hallowed cam and vala joined the show...kinda rankles. that 'crud' was good enough for 150+ episodes PLUS a spin off. And they accomplished all of that before Cam and Vala were anything more than an idea and a 'what if' in the back of a writer's mind

[Mitchell82]

very true. However, if it wasn't for sam, daniel and teal'c, vala and cam wouldn't exist anywhere but coop's imagination and all the farscape fans would have nothing but 4 seasons of dvd's and one mini-series to enjoy


and when you are told that thier 8 years of hard work is little more than crud before the oh so hallowed cam and vala joined the show...kinda rankles. that 'crud' was good enough for 150+ episodes PLUS a spin off. And they accomplished all of that before Cam and Vala were anything more than an idea and a 'what if' in the back of a writer's mind

Oh don't get me wrong I loved the first 8 years as much as I love the new seasons. I also agree with you the Sam Teal'c Jack and Daniel made the show and helped pave the way for the new characters as well. This show is great IMHO both the old and new.

[Danner]

...or if they brought in a new character, how about someone older and even more experienced than sam, daniel, and teal'c?...

Be hard to find someone older and more experienced as a soldier than Teal'c.

I do get what you mean though Someone with the Earth military credentials and the years of say, Jack... unfortunately though, I think they would have fallen prey to the same crappy writing that Cameron got.

...and when you are told that thier 8 years of hard work is little more than crud before the oh so hallowed cam and vala joined the show...kinda rankles. that 'crud' was good enough for 150+ episodes PLUS a spin off. And they accomplished all of that before Cam and Vala were anything more than an idea and a 'what if' in the back of a writer's mind

Yep! This pretty much says it all for me as well. I liked Cameron and Vala, but not enough to have our regulars pushed into the background as if all their years on the show didn't mean diddly and didn't get the show to the point where a season 9 or 10 was even possible.

[smurf]

Very true. Don't get me wrong, I also believe that Cameron would have fit nicely had TPTB gone about his introduction and integration in a more subtle manner. I like BB and believe that had he come into the show in earlier times, when the writing was so much better, there wouldn't be any of this controversy over his character that appears to be present in the now. I guess I was just pondering the possibilities with a character already known and liked, someone who could have slotted in without needing a backstory.

Strangely, I'm not hugely bothered by backstory - I should be in for the long haul, so there's plenty of time. I tend to go for a character's personality, and unfortunately for Mitchell I found him annoying and over the top from the start.

I'm not so sure about that, Lou is an established character within the SG structure, he wouldn't be prone to the same uncertainties and needs to prove himself that a new character would have been. As a veteran himself, the writing would have probably been different for him.

I agree. The writing is a big reason why things didn't pan out smoothly for the new characters. I don't know if lousy writing would have been any better for Hammond or Jonas though. I've often snarled at things I don't like. or don't think rings true, even with the regular four and this includes Daniel, who is a firm favourite of mine.

I'm not sure Lou Ferretti would be greatly protected from Mitchellisation. Although he exists in the Stargate universe, he hasn't been a character of note since the third episode of season 1, which means none of the current writers know him (and I wouldn't expect any of them to go back and re-aquaint themselves ).
Hammond and Jonas are characters that the majority of the current writers have shared headspace with. The writers know the characters enough to know when something is out of character, and I think this affords them some protection from being used only to further the plot - in much the same way as you wouldn't get Daniel or Sam pressing random buttons.
ETA: Not complete protection, obviously.


I find it strange that, knowing they had a major role of new lead to cater for, the writers did not appear to have a character/personality biography for Mitchell written up at the start for them to all to work from.

[Mitchell82]

Yep! This pretty much says it all for me as well. I liked Cameron and Vala, but not enough to have our regulars pushed into the background as if all their years on the show didn't mean diddly and didn't get the show to the point where a season 9 or 10 was even possible.

I don't think that the other characters have been pushed into the backstory. I think they all have an equal part to play in the show.