The Cam and Vala discussion thread

[Mandysg1]

I couldn't agree more. While Vala doesn't bother me, Mitchell just wasn't able to fill RDA's shoes... in fact I doubt anyone really could. SG1s demise began when that transition took place. I've seen it happen with ensemble cast shows over and over. Remove a major link and the whole show collapses.

JMO

Raduzhok

While you bring up a good point, I don't think it's just RDA's leaving, IIRC the ratings at the beginning of S9 were pretty good, which means fans were willing to give the new season and it's changes a chance. Unfortuneately what they were given wasn't enough to keep them watching the show...dare I say it may have driven them away So yes they did bring in a poorly contrived charicter and tried to make him into a new "Jack" and brought back a character that just didn't belong on SG1...didn't she almost kill the crew of the Prometheus and our beloved Gen. Hammond? So IMHO, the way the writers brought these characters into the show contributed to the demise of SG1

[scarimor]

Sure, i'm obviously wrong. Or maybe my opinion is simply different.

Yes, it was pure trolling....

Oh. You?

Well, if the cap fits...

[esoap524]

Maybe that's because it took them a few years to expand on the basic initial caricature - but it remains the roots of any of these characters.

There's a difference between a caricature and an archetype.

Caricature:
1 : exaggeration by means of often ludicrous distortion of parts or characteristics
2 : a representation especially in literature or art that has the qualities of caricature
3 : a distortion so gross as to seem like caricature

Archetype:

1 : the original pattern or model of which all things of the same type are representations or copies : PROTOTYPE; also : a perfect example

Using that, I'd say Vala was/is more of a caricature, whereas Mitchell is more an archetype in the vein of all those space faring daring do men who came before him, including Dylan Hunt, Captain Kirk, Commander Riker and Jack O'Neill.

Sam would be an archetype in the vein of Spock, for example, or Dana Scully from The Xfiles, or all the other brainiac, in the nick of time sci fi characters out there.

I would agree that the "archetype" remains at the roots of all these characters. The question is, have any of them, including the ones who were there from day one, grown much beyond that archetype.

Vala definitely started out caricature but I see the character rising above that--for me, a lot of her behavior is motivated by a need to not let anyone get too close. It walks the line, a lot of the time, but I think Claudia Black's a good enough actress that she often rises above the material.

BTW, caricature has been used to great effect in literature. There's a French play called Tartuffe, I believe, that uses it to ridicule a certain type of person. In itself, it's not a bad thing.

To use Farscape, because that's the show I know best, the D'Argo character (very big, foreboding scary bad tempered dude) was the Worf archetype yet the show flipped that by making him a guy who just wanted a wife and a family when all was said and done.

Ben's character took the traditional hero mold of Kirk and Co and made him, first, a non-combatant, and secondly, a guy who wasn't afraid to admit that he was afraid. Or maybe he was the smart science guy who had to become a warrior. See what I mean? Flipped the archetype.

Battlestar Galactica is teeming with examples of taking existing archetypal characters to the next level.

And so on.

ETA: I still don't think they killed Sg1...I just want to make sure I stay on topic.

[scarimor]

There's a difference between a caricature and an archetype...

Thank you for all that, esoap524. You had the patience to correct a very elementary error which I couldn't be bothered to do. I salute you.

[esoap524]

Thank you for all that, esoap524. You had the patience to correct a very elementary error which I couldn't be bothered to do. I salute you.

Heh, thank you. I'm just a big show off who knows how use a dictionary and read Tartuffe a million years ago.

[Danner]

I've finally caught up with all the responses to this thread and would like to post my own perspective on this matter.

In response to the original question of whether we believe Vala/Cameron killed Stargate or not, I would have to say, I very much doubt it. My reasons for believing this are many, not the least of which is that the show has (IMO)basically had it's day. 10 years is a long time for any series to survive and before reading this thread my opinion would have been: 'Frankly, I'm surprised that it lasted as long as it did'.
I see now that the audience is very diverse and therefore it's longevity no longer surprises me, what does, is the impression that any one reason is what ultimately killed it.

For me personally, I lost interest in watching the show a long time ago, however; I never actually lost interest in the premise behind the original movie and the early seasons. I loved the idea of the Stargate and all exploration involved with, I loved the idea of the team, I loved the presence of the chillingly evil Goa'uld and I enjoyed the close relationships between the characters.

What killed the show for me all that time ago was the slow erosion of these features. I am sure that there are many features of the show, including the individual characters which has taken a sufficient enough nosedive for a large number of fans to have slowly walked away from the series even as new ones came aboard. As a result the ratings have sometimes dropped only to turn around and liven up again, then drop, then gain and so on, until ultimately, enough fans(particularly long-term ones) decided that enough was enough and not enough of a fandom remained to justify the expenses currently involved in keeping the show alive.

I can't give an in-depth analysis of the new characters as I have watched the show periodically only in the last five years, but I have watched enough and fully kept in touch with the online fandom and all that involves to form some opinion of them.

Without wishing to tread on too many toes, I don't believe the somewhat common belief that the show died a death because RDA left the show, or that Cameron was a poor replacement. The character of O'Neill was hardly there in season 8, yet the ratings proved to be a winner, season 9 also had good ratings, so the belief that RDA took a bulk of the fandom with him is not only unlikely, but a major insult to the remaining three regulars who each have a strong fanbase of their own. As for Cameron, it's unfair to compare him to O'Neill, considering that RDA had 7 to 8 years in which to endear himself to the general audience, many of which was during a time when the writing and direction was a great deal more appealing than what has been apparent in recent times.

As for Vala, I found her to be a breath of fresh air. After her experiences she could have spent her time doing a lot of soul-searching and bemoaning her fate, but that doesn't really make for very good long-term viewing, in fact, in much the same way that Jack resorts to humour to help him get through the rough patches, Vala has her own way of dealing, it's not to everyone's cup of tea, but I liked her.

However; having said this, I think the way they were introduced was too rushed and could have done with some previous build-up, it's not like the PTB didn't know they were coming on board until the new season, they could have introduced them (particularly Cameron) back in seaon 8... my guess is that they were hedging their bets with RDA, and that was a very bad mistake.


It's also my strong belief that the ultimate reasons behind the sudden withdrawal of a large percentage of the fandom come season 10 had little to do with new characters and much to do with the writers and PTB. There is only so much rampant ignoring of fans concerns, mocking of same fans in specific episodes, and complete restructuring of beloved characters and premises, before said fans finally say 'that's it, I've had enough' and off they go.

Fresh ideas, new characters and growth are vital to any show, but to disregard/slowly dissolve what was originally loved about the show, and further, to push back beloved characters and not make good use of them, is to a large extent a huge act of disrespect to a very loyal, long-term fandom and ultimately it is this attitude along with the other aspects I have mentioned and no doubt many more, which is what finally killed the show.

Briefly:
(1) The show has had a long run(longer than any other sci-fi show) and was likely due for retirement.

(2) Ratings Vs costs didn't balance out enough to warrant continuing.

(3) Disrepect of certain sections of the fandom as displayed in mocking episodes... 'Citizen Joe' and '200' comes to mind. Many will not agree with this assessment, and fine, you are entitled to that opinion if you are in this group, but it's my opinion that any show where the writers feel they have a right to denigrate large groups of the fandom, many of whom are, (particularly if you start looking beyond more than viewership and into the franchise), quite frankly a large portion of their bread and butter for this show.

(4) Poor writing and direction.

(5) Complete re-working of the original premise to the point that it was no longer evident in any real form.

(6) A certain disrespect for the long-term characters, who have, as a group, a large and loyal fanbase.

(7) A 'bull in a china shop' approach to new characters and directions, many of whom and which could have settled in nicely if given the proper introductions.

Anyway, that's my opinion re: why the show finally died. If you're still with me, thanks for reading.

[Skydiver]

there is a difference between joining in the conversation and contributing to it, and 'i'm right,you're wrong and i'm gonna pester you until you go away or admit that i'm right'

the latter is trolling. joining a thread you're not participating in just to rile it up.

[Sandmonkey]

Vala and Cameron didn't kill Stargate if they did anything it was makeing it better.I love Stargate I love the older seasons but I have to admit this tenth season has been on of the best I've ever seen. It's funnier and it's more upbeat at times and you still get the same drama that you want.In my opinon Vala and Cameron have saved stargate in some ways.

[Farscapefan]

While you bring up a good point, I don't think it's just RDA's leaving, IIRC the ratings at the beginning of S9 were pretty good, which means fans were willing to give the new season and it's changes a chance. Unfortuneately what they were given wasn't enough to keep them watching the show...dare I say it may have driven them away So yes they did bring in a poorly contrived charicter and tried to make him into a new "Jack" and brought back a character that just didn't belong on SG1...didn't she almost kill the crew of the Prometheus and our beloved Gen. Hammond? So IMHO, the way the writers brought these characters into the show contributed to the demise of SG1

Your beloved Gen. Hammond gave an order to KILL her at the end of the episode, if Walter was quick enough (fortunately he wasn't) to fire at the Alkesh, Vala would be dead. Stupid Humans...

[GateLadyM]

I don't feed trolls.

I like Mitchell AND Vala and think they've both brought a freshness to the show that it lacked in season 8.

[jeb]

These characters started as much as hero caricatures because they were shown as almost perfect, a stereotyped vanilla action team. I also read tartuffe at school.

1 : exaggeration by means of often ludicrous distortion of parts or characteristics

[scarimor]

Heh, thank you. I'm just a big show off who knows how use a dictionary and read Tartuffe a million years ago.

Et Tartuffe?

Et Tartuffe?

Et Tartuffe!

Quel homme!

[Skydiver]

for me, danner here hit the nail on the head.

why am i not all 'omg, i MUST campaign or i'm not a true fan!!!!!'


well, the same folks that woudl benefit from my efforts are the folks that have dismissed me and anyone else expressing concerns as people with issues and have accused us of being too stupid to acknowledge thier greatness

dude, don't diss me then hope for me to campaign to save your job. (although, the sad part is, a good chunk of the blame falls on the writers...who will simply move over to atlantis and keep their jobs. it's the actors/cast/crew who have been simple pawns in this mess that end up the losers while those that bear the most responsibility skate away scott free and blameless)

[Flyboy]

I must be one of the only people who thought that S9 was one of the show's strongest seasons and with some of the best ever episodes in it...

A lot of which I thank vala/cam for.

[MB.Eddie]

Without wishing to tread on too many toes, I don't believe the somewhat common belief that the show died a death because RDA left the show, or that Cameron was a poor replacement. The character of O'Neill was hardly there in season 8, yet the ratings proved to be a winner, season 9 also had good ratings, so the belief that RDA took a bulk of the fandom with him is not only unlikely, but a major insult to the remaining three regulars who each have a strong fanbase of their own.

I agree.

However; having said this, I think the way they were introduced was too rushed and could have done with some previous build-up, it's not like the PTB didn't know they were coming on board until the new season, they could have introduced them (particularly Cameron) back in seaon 8... my guess is that they were hedging their bets with RDA, and that was a very bad mistake.

Actually they did introduce Vala in season 8, in Prometheus Unbound, but i do agree with your comments on Mitchell. He seemed to be throwen into the fold straight away.

Good post, you made some very good points.